826 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Sliver,

The prejudice by the Council and Quarians either existed before the Geth existed or before they attacked anyone. That is all.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 02:13 .

[Morlath]

https://www.youtube....h?v=Hro9UbqEXZw

"The Geth cannot solve for peace alone"

Right at the end Legion explains the importance of the Dyson Sphere and why they ignored Soverign by trying to do it themselves. They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt and the Quarian attack stopped that ability and forced their hand into accepting the Reaper offer to enable this to happen.

[remydat]

Yes exactly although I would add the attack exposed the flaw in this plan. It requires the Geth to all be clustered together as part of essnetially one mega computer which also means a single attack on this single location can basically wipe out the entire Geth. The RC allows them to improve their processing power and makes the consensus a nice to have instead of a necessity. They can still be connected but are not doomed if they arent to be dumber.

Being an individual is merely a byproduct not the goal just like killing the geth and edi is not for most the goal of destroy just a byproduct of wanting to kill the Reapers. It is amusing destroyers make this point all the time to defend their choice but then chastise Legion because he makes a similar choice. His goal is survival and becoming fully evolved and the game requires him to become an individual to achieve this. Not his fault or choice.  And he has no other option except Refuse and die.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 03:15 .

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...
They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt...

So the geth aren't alive unless they are individuals?

What does it mean for a networked intelligence to become singular personalities? Doesn't this change what they are and who they are, effectively wiping out the geth and replacing them with something else?

Modifié par klarabella, 15 mai 2013 - 04:39 .

[Morlath]

klarabella wrote...

Morlath wrote...
They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt...

So the geth aren't alive unless they are individuals?

Not what I said, not what Legion says.

What does it mean for a networked intelligence to become singular personalities? Doesn't this change what they are and who they are, effectively wiping out the geth and replacing them with something else?

It changes the nature of the Geth. The Geth are trying to transcend beyond collective intelligence and into individuality so that they can be unique personalities. Or at the very least one singular personality within the sphere so that all programs have the capacity for life.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
1. Military protection for 50,000 ships, where the loss of even ONE ship will be a blow to their entire population, and where if even ONE of the three liveships is destroyed, half the quarians will starve, and a months worth of dextro-rations to be gifted EVERY DAY to the quarians, AND their imobility thanks to having to be so tightly grouped together and having to cluster around the liveships, making them both a massive target, AND impractical for combat since they will bog down everyone else by needing constant cover?

I love how you think that suicidal idea sounds good. Seriously, that isthe epitimy of a bad idea - look at Palaven and Earth. The Reapers handled them easily. How much worse do you think it will get if they all have to group into a single centralized slaughterfest around potentally defensless livehsips? They DON'T have that kind of capabilaty to mass-produce food for everyone because there isn't space for it. The quarians balance everything out in terms of storage. Stocking up on weapons and medicine and repair supplies means not stocking up on food. And thanks to their weak immune systems and fragile ships, the quarians would burn through those resources. Remember Kal'Reegar's words on the fleet?

"You've only seen our strike ops. Don't have all the fancy equipment in a front-line fight. Supply lines get strained, things get ugly fast."

If the quarians were unable to fight the geth without an "instant win button" viral weapon, how the hell do you expect them to survive against the "eat ships for breakfest" Reapers without any such advantage, AND while dragging down everyone else?

And if it was that simple, don't you think they would have done that when fighting the GETH. The fleet CAN'T be split - the civilian ships are too fragile to survive any encounter without the military ships, and the military ships are completely dependant on the civilian ships for supplies via shuttle runs in-between. No civilian ships = no food, fuel, medicine, or repair materials for the military fleet. And they can't stock up on those things indivadually, because every single ship is overpacked with people. And moving people from one ship to another doesn't work, because that ship would have to move supplies to another ship, which in turn would have to move supplies and personel, and it would just go on and on. There literally IS no room in the Migrant Fleet for such rearanging.

I never said it was that simple. I was raising the point that there are always other options than arming the civilians and putting them in the line of fire.

The fact of the matter is that no decision with the civilian ships would be ideal but if there was absolutely NO other way to handle the situation then the argument wouldn't be one of the issues splitting the Admiralty board.

2. And the reason anyone has to BELIEVE Tali's claims, when the source of the information is a geth that was working with Cerberus, is....?

So I ask you what I asked SAK somewhere else on this forum.

If you can't believe Legion about the Heretics, is the entire Legion Loyalty mission one single plan to convince Shepard that Legion is a friendly at the expensive of all those platforms and software?

That's the be-all, end-all of "we can't trust Legion about the Heretics" argument. You either think that the entire mission is a sacrificial setup or you believe Legion's story about the Heretic's having a different perspective than the other Geth.

So which is it, Silver? Are you THAT much of a Geth conspiracy theorist?

Second, Tali tells you that the quarians didn't debate on war until they DID know the effects of Xen's weapons. After all, Xen isn't completely insane - she's not going to publicly reveal something that could potentally endanger herself.

Doesn't mean she knows what would happen outside of the lab. Lab tests are like plans, they don't follow a script once put into the real world.

And third, would it ever have come to that if the geth had openly shown they were friendly? Like disclaiming the Heretics, or openly trying to invite people to talk, or journey out of the Veil unarmed to speak with others? Not killing all the preivous peace deligations would have helped too. The fact that the geth are so misunderstood isn't helped by the geth's seeming unwillingness or lack of desire to change that outlook the public has of them. Again, the geth are just as responcible for this conflict with their lack of positive action to change public outlook on them.

The Geth having an image problem isn't up for debate. I've already agreeed that they have one but there's only so far this one issue should be used to justify anything anti-Geth.

3. NO. It WASN'T.
The quarians DON'T want a war.
In fact, Tali tells you on the Alerei that most quarians resent themselves for the Morning War, NOT the geth. Halfway through the ship, when having the converstaion at the Console, select the options "That's a bad idea" and then "Then take it back" to hear Shepard question Tali as to why the quarians never tried to reclaim Rannoch. Tali will admit that it's out of guilt for perpetuating the conflict, since most quarians feel they jumped the gun with the geth. They feel they are the one's to blame for causeing the war because they misjudged what the geth were and how far they came, and for likely giving the geth such a negitive view of organics in general. So, NO, they AREN'T looking for an excuse to fight. They simply became desperate when the Reapers invaded and attacked when they thought no other choice existed. If they thought other options existed, they would have TAKEN them, as evidenced by how quickly the fleet stood down when Shepard ordered them to stop.

The general populous, sure. But the military and those in charge haven't shown that perspective and all that matters is what the Admiralty board believes.

Ad the fact that it conencides so perfectly is PROOF that the Reapers were the cause of the war. Your own exact statement about it not being even a month early is only PROOF that the Reapers were the thing that drove the quarians to attack now. NOT a grudge. Also, the time-frame suggests that the quarians were debating on this for at least a month before the Reaper invasion. They also only just attacked at around the time of the Tuchanka mission. The Reapers were the thing that spurned them to take imediate action, even though it was an action that most did not agree with.

Read almost the very first Spectre report at the beginning of the game. I think it's even before you go to Palavin and it talks about how the Quarians are recalling all their people to the fleet and were buying a LOT of new equipment. It even ends with a thought that they're thinking of going to war with the Geth and how that's a bad idea.

Just like Shepard with the Alpha Relay, Not an action Shepard agreed with, but still one that had to be taken, because no other alternitives. That's the position the quarians were in.

The Quarians were put into a position where they are willing to lose their entire species in the hopes of regaining their planet?

You can't have it both ways. Either the weapon was going to work without a hitch and there was no need to arm the civilian fleet or the Geth are so horrible that they are "obviously" going to side with the Reapers and so only the military should try to retake Rannoch. Which is it?

6. The entire galaxy fighting and resisting the certin death the Reapers bring seems to say the exact opposate. They know they are basically fighting a losing battle, but hell if they care. They're going to die fighting for what they believe in. Same thing as the protheans in the last cycle.

It's okay for every species in the galaxy to fight for their survival.
It's okay for every species to sacrifice entire fleets of their people for the chance the reast can escape.
It's okay for the Protheans to fight a war of nutritian and sacrifice entire worlds so that they could regroup.

It's not okay for the Geth to have an insane hope of surviving a war they didn't start (Rannoch) by siding with the only side that can balance the loss of all their programs and still give them some form of intelligence. Especially if they don't see any other way of surviving as a species.

The asari disavowed the Ardat-Yakshi.

Actually, the Ardat-Yakshi aren't disvowed. It's hinted in the game that Shepard and his crew are one of the only ones outside of the Asari people who know what the Ardat-Yakshi are. The same situation about Shepard and the Geth/Heretics.

1. There WAS no other option - at lest not that they believed would work. The quarians have already shown that had there been another option, they would have taken it, considering how eager they were to lay down arms when they realized the geth weren't irridemably hostile. And again, there was no where else for their civilians to go. I already listed the reasons why they couldn't go to the turians or such for help, and why finding a new planet on the fly was impossible in the middle of a galactic war. This was the safest bet. It it wrong to take the option that has a sure-fire chance of success when your entire race is on the line? Even if you stand by your claims, you can't begrudge the quarians for picking the option that garunteed their survival (at least until the Reaper upgrades).

2. It's not about Shepard. That's what you never got. It's not Shepard's POV we were talking about, it's weather or not OTHERS will believe it. I am NOT, nor was I ever talking about the player. I was talking about the rest of the in-game universe believing Shepard's views. And they don't until far too late.
I remind you that in spite of everything Shepard did for the Alliance, they scapegoated the Commander for the Alpha Relay and Cerberus Ties. In spite of all Shepard did, no one believed what the Commander said about the Reapers. If no one took Shepard's word on the Reapers being real, what makes you think the Alliance would take Shepard's word on the geth? I remind you that if you bring Ash/Kaiden on the dreadnought, they mention that they saw the reports from Shepard's interrogation regarding the Heretics. However, this intel is classified, as there is no verifiable proof to back it.
That's the SAME with Tali and the Admirals - no verifiable proof to back up her source - Legion - as a credible info source.
All this time, you thought the people me and SAK were talking about were the players? NO. We were talking about why the Other Admirals and the rest of the galaxy have no reason to trust Tali's info source. You and I can trust Legion, but can you  understand why the rest of the galaxy was sceptical? Especally given everything the Heretics did to worsen the geth's reputation, and how the True Geth did nothing to disavow their actions?

3. Xen isn't the type to risk her own neck unless she's sure. Plain and simple. And she has Rael's mistakes to learn from and remind her how far to take it at one time. Trust me, she tested it. She's to self-cautious to risk herself on an untested weapon.
Remember, all the quarians would have to do is send one scout shuttle to test the viral weapon, because it's a virus - any computer can store it and transmit it. Not that difficult.

4. Aside from letting the Heretic problem fester for the two years between ME1 and ME2? And only finishing the problem after it became a threat to them too? Oh, yeah, and knowing about the Reaper's coming and doing nothing to warn the rest of the galaxy, or trying any form of outside contact with the other races in the six months between ME2 and ME3. And butchering any and all previous peace attempts for the last 300 years. That certenly doesn't breed reasons why the rest of the galaxy should up and trust them.
Honestly, with all that, surely you can understand why the quarians didn't think the geth had any intrest in negotiation?

5. Actually, no. Quarian law explisitly forbids the military from dictating the Migrant Fleet's actions. In fleet-wide safety matters and/or actions, like war, the fleet can NOT be ordered by the military alone, unless all five admirals agree to it unanimously. In other word's, it was not a one-sided order, because quarian law forbids Gerrel from taking the fleet to war in that case unless ALL the Admirals agree with him - and Tali and Koris did not.
In this case, the matter is put to vote against the Conclave - the quarian senate, where all ships have a say in the matter. The matter is put to vote in the Conclave, which in turn polls it against the entire fleet. From this point on, the votes decide, and if there are enough votes, then, barring Unanimous agreement on the Admiralty Board, Conclave can repel any action the Admirals put up.
We know that it was not a military-dictated order, because Gerrel lacked the required support of All the admirals needed by quarian law to enforce that kind of ordrer. The ONLY it's possible for the fleet to go to war is if a majority of the quarians willingly consent to it.
THAT'S the point - the majority of the quarians consented to the war, even though they didn't want to fight, because they thought they had no other option but death. The SAME exact thing the geth did - consenting to an action they did not want (siding with the Reapers) because they felt all other options were blocked.
Once again, no difference in the levels of guilt between the two.

6. That's them PREPPING for the war - JUST NOW. As in, they WEREN'T going to war until after the Reapers panicked them into thining the alternitive was to sit in space waiting for them to kill them. You were calling ME a conspiracy theriost, and yet you refuse to believe that it was a spur of the moment choice like the geth's siding with the Reapers was. They really aren't that different in how innocent or guilty they are.

7. ONCE AGAIN, I remind you that Xen's weapon was an instant win button that completely disabled all geth ships and weapons, making an invasion of Rannoch Completely risk-free. That idea is what made the invasion so prefrerable compared to unprovable outcomes like the geth wanting to negotiate. I mean, do you really think they EXPECTED the Reapersto upgrade the geth like that? And look how far the quarians got - four geth systems taken down on the way to Rannoch. They had the geth dead to rights until the Reapers came along. And because of the attacks on Eden Prime and the Citadel, they already think the geth ARE Reaper allies. They don't know the geth are neutral.
And arming the civilian fleet was precautionary. Just prepping for the worst-case scenerio. Hackett and Udina order all human civilian ships to be armed, but I don't hear anyone decrying that order.

8. - Fighting for survival does NOT translate into "butcher everything in sight just because it's there."
- Sacrifice only if no other option exists. We weren't at Arcturus (I assume that's the fight you are talking about), so you can't say there wasn't other choices.
- First off, I never even brought the protheans into this. And secondly, they just used ruthless calculus. Same thing Garrus advocates is how wars like this work - "ten billion people over here die so that twenty billion people over there can live." He says that's the harsh reality of war - something turians are bread to know from birth. Save the many. Not the few.
What did the geth do? The saved themselves at the cost of screwing everyone else over. That DOESN'T sound like a "the needs of the many situatioin." I'm sorry, but again, you can't try to feign innocince for the geth - they aren't any more deserving of it then the quarians are.
And AGAIN, whose fault is it that everyone else sees them as irredimably hostile? Their own.

9. Read the Codex on Ardat-Yakshi. It states that they are a source of great shame, and are considered abominations among the asari, either locked up in monestaries, or hunted down by Justicars. No one want's anyone to know about them - THAT sounds like being disavowed. And it's not the same as the geth, because the geth claimed they DID want others to know they weren't monsters. Yet they never tired to change that.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Again, you don't get it.
The geth are walking weapons, like the mutants in the Marvel Universe. They have the capabilaty to kill with a single flick of their wrists. They aren't supposed to be alive or have ideals. And yet, these beings with such destructive potental are suddenly showing signs of intelligence. That wouldn't scare you? The ideal that an entire population of walking guns could suddenly go berserk and destroy everything?

You have no proof that every single Geth unit created in the beginning was armed. The Quarians built the Geth to do all areas of manual labour.

What's the point of arming a farming robot?
Why would a Geth unit working within a factory be armed?

Nonsense. The only "always armed" Geth we see in the MEU are the wall crawlers and any with more than two legs. Normal Geth units are still only armed with weapons that need to be held.

This argument doesn't hold water for what we see in-game.

-The geth were NEVER ment to become synthetic life. They weren't even ment to be more then overglorified drones. And the original programming did NOT skirt A.I. programming. The geth altered themselves to be closer to an A.I., changing so gradually that the quarians never noticed.

www.youtube.com/watch

Tali - Over time WE made small modifications to their programing....bringing them closer and closer to true AI status.

So yeah, try that one again.

-Once again, they were ment to be tools. Nothing else. Go to a factory plant and look at the automated car assembly. Or a machine that plants seeds. Or a bomb disposal robot. Are those slaves? THAT'S what the geth were supposed to be - adaptible tools of labor and war. Nothing else. They were NEVER ment to be alive. And you need to be alive to be a slave.
-They were NEVER ment to reach that level. They were ment to be guns that could multitask. Nothing else. They were not ment to be any more alive then the computer or digital device you are using to type right now.
-Once again, it was inconvivable that a machine that was built to kill and serve would have any concept of material wants or needs. It it really wrong to assume a gun isn't going to shoot something? It ISN't "synthetic genocide" if the thing isn't alive. And no one knew the geth were truly alive. And even if they did, then the situation isn't that different then how people see the Reapers. If your family or loved ones were potentally on the line, wouldn't you pull the trigger on the potentally unstable death machine? That's the situation the quarians were in, and even if you disagree with the choice, you can hardly begrudge it.

Re-read my point about them not all being armed and listen to Tali explain how the QUARIANS turned the Geth into AIs by their own meddling.

And AGAIN, defending oneself doens't translate to the premediatated assault against quarian civilain centers, and the mass slaughter of millions of innocents. Don't accuse the quarians of being the ones that took it too far - it takes TWO to tango. There were millions of quarians that were unable, or unwilling, to fight. They weren't any form of threat, yet they were massicared. HOW is that fair? Isolation is one thing. Mass murder is another. And that brings up another question - WHY did the geth fight the quarians in the first place? Because as you yourself just stated, they could have isolated themselves - they could have packed their bags and left the Percsus Veil themselves. And alot more people would have sympathised with the geth for being the bigger person and backing off from an unessessary fight. Instead, they went completely off the wall with the quarians and butchered everyone.

I do like the way you're trying to squeeze all the pro-Geth arguments into one thing and then use any point in the Geth-Quarian history to disprove them.

In the beginning the Geth had no concept about the santity of life because the Quarians didn't program it into them. The Geth were alive and being attacked so they responded in the only logical fashion - Destroy thy enemy and they enemy cannot destroy you.

Trying to judge the Geth on their actions during the MW by their post-MW growth is lazy.

I'm Sorry, but again I point out that for everything you find that's negitive for the quarians and positive for the geth, there is an equal and opposate thing that is positive for the quarians and negitive for the geth. BOTH are equally at fault. There is NO "more justified" side. It's all about perspective, and the knowledge that nither side is more just then the other.

And yet you're still trying to say that the Quarians are justified in attacking the Geth. I've admitted that the Geth didn't make things easy on themselves with the isolationist attitude even though it's a logical result from their experiences.

1.um.... YES I DO.
In the geth's Codex entry in ALL THREE GAMES, the very first peragraph sais they were built as "tools of labor and WAR." ALL OF THEM. This is also cooraberoated by Legion, who says ALL geth were built with the same capabilaties. They were ment to be an army that could mobilize against any threat on the fly, and do so quicker then any organic. When a force like that shows signs of breaking from your control, you panic at the thought of what it can do

And need I remind you how Legion nearly killed Shepard unarmed? Your arguement is what doesn't hold water, since Legion's capabilaties, and the CODEX, both disprove you.

2.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMPeG3pQlPw
Directly contridicted by Legion, who says the geth got there under their own steam.
Let me clear something up for you.
The quarians may have upgraded the geth over time, but NOT with the goal of making them A.I.s. They modified them to self-optimize so that they could adapt better to changing situations. Making them A.I.s  was an unintentional effect. Tali is basically speaking out of hindsight as to how the quarians modifactaions made them closer to A.I.s. NOT that it was intentional.

"so yeah, try that one again."
(act snide, it's going to be bounced right back)

3. And likewise, you can read the CODEX which says they were ALL made as "tools of labor and war." And then look at the video I provieded showing Legion state that all geth were built for the same reasons.
Then you can look at that same vid and see Legion specifically state the geth became sentiant under their own cognitive power.

4. I likewise like how that post refuted ABSOLUTLY NOTHING.
The geth had free access to the extranet, and the quarians archives. Some of them were defending a few quarian protestesrs. They were asking questions of existance. That kinda screams the OPPOSATE about "santity of life." Besides, I thought you were the one saying that pre-programed limitations were worthless in the end?
Also, since when does wiping out a completely infrerior race mercelessly and ruthlessly, instead of fighting in self-defense, or simply leaving the Veil themselves, seem logical. If anything, it's DEVOID of logic.
Also, did you MISS how I brought up the 99% death rate of quarians, or how the geth acted excessively viloent when viloence was the quarians last resort? That is NOT a "post-MW" analysis - that's things that happened during the actual damn War.

5. AGAIN, wrong.
I'm telling YOU that for everything you find that makes the geth just and quarians unjust, there is something that makes the geth unjust and the quarians just. I'm telling you that they are not any more innocent or guilty then the quarians.
Also, since when did destroying unarmed peace envoys from an alien race that had nothing to do with the last war seem logical in ANY way? Or letting a rouge faction run rampant despite knowing the consiquences to all organic life?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 15 mai 2013 - 06:58 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver

As expected you completely ignore the fact that Shotgun admitted she endorsed Xen's beliefs. She said an option for the Quarians to seize the consensus should have been provided. Perhaps you should read what she said and talk to her before running on with this ramble.

And an analogy does not have to have every single element be the same for it to apply this is not 4th grade. If you fail to see the connection between not intending to create life but creating one anyway then oh well. However until you, Shotgun or anyone else obtains mod powers I will make whatever analogies see fit. There is a mechanism in place for you to report forum violations so feel free to use it if you think I have. Perhaps when you do so you can also report yourself for numerous insults made which are clearly a violation of forum rules, lol.

AGAIN, dead wrong. Once again YOU ignore the fact that she admired Xen's analytical mindset, NOT her actions.
Ask her YOURSELF, why don't you? You're already too afraid to post the previous comments from me, trying to make it all the harder to talk to you. She said it would have been an interesting plot-line, and that it made logical sence for the quarians to try. "making logical sence" does NOT equal "I agree with the morals of it." So STOP trying to peddle that BS. Perhapse YOU should actually talk to HER, instead of dancing around it by commenting on me.

And ONCE AGAIN, I point out that this is PATENTLY FALSE, as it STILL has nothing to do with the topic she brought up, or the forum itself.
The quarians INTENDED to create a being. NOT for it to become sentiant. It's like rasing a dog, then having that dog suddenly start talking. The quarians actually DID intend to create somthing, but NOT the something they got. Which is DIFFERENT then not wantint to create anything period.
And bringing up accidental pregnancies and such is completely insensitive. There are PLENTY of other ways to go about trying to make a point without needing to be so offensive and insensitive to others. If YOU can't comprehend simple humanity and courtisy, "oh well."
Also, I'm pretty sure that, based on what just about everyone else says of you, that all topic derailings and and first stones cast can be traced back to you. Especally since you are the one constantly bringing up Godwin, Hitler and Jews, and now This. You know, things everyone else had the sense to NOT drag into a fictional debate?
I mean, only a 4th grader WOULDN'T know how offensive such things can be.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Sliver,

The prejudice by the Council and Quarians either existed before the Geth existed or before they attacked anyone. That is all.

AGAIN, dead wrong.
That prejudice existed for the COUNCIL only, who imposed rules the quarians had no choice but to follow.
Let me lay something out for you - if the quarians wholeheartedly agreed with the Council's prejuduce, why didn't the scrap the geth from the get-go? Why did they try to let the problem work itself out first, or try to reprogram them to AVOID a fight?

So AGAIN, dead wrong. Council prejudice was seperate from quarian ideals, and prejuidice had NOTHING to do with the Morning War. Fear that the geth's existance was a risk to their entire people was the cause.
THAT is all.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

https://www.youtube....h?v=Hro9UbqEXZw

"The Geth cannot solve for peace alone"

Right at the end Legion explains the importance of the Dyson Sphere and why they ignored Soverign by trying to do it themselves. They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt and the Quarian attack stopped that ability and forced their hand into accepting the Reaper offer to enable this to happen.

The problem is that the geth never solved for peace at ALL.
I didn't see them letting peace ships inside their borders. I didn't see them disavowing the Heretics. I didn't see them trying to make any form of contact with anyone else between any of the games.

And again, by accepting the Reaper's upgrades at the end of the Rannoch War, isn't that conforming to Heretic mentalaty? Using Reaper tech to achieve their goal?

Face it - the geth aren't the abused cherubs you think they are.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Morlath wrote...
They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt...

So the geth aren't alive unless they are individuals?

Not what I said, not what Legion says.

What does it mean for a networked intelligence to become singular personalities? Doesn't this change what they are and who they are, effectively wiping out the geth and replacing them with something else?

It changes the nature of the Geth. The Geth are trying to transcend beyond collective intelligence and into individuality so that they can be unique personalities. Or at the very least one singular personality within the sphere so that all programs have the capacity for life.

But that is directly countered by what Legion tells you on the Heretic station, stating that all geth are unique from each-other, because all form different conclusions from the same data. All are different according to Legion.

Not really. It's hardly any different then typacal internetworking. Just on a bigger scale then previously. That AGAIN is directly countered by Legion, who says they would all become a single gestalt personalaty - NOt individuals any longer.

[KingZayd]

silverexile17s wrote...

Morlath wrote...

https://www.youtube....h?v=Hro9UbqEXZw

"The Geth cannot solve for peace alone"

Right at the end Legion explains the importance of the Dyson Sphere and why they ignored Soverign by trying to do it themselves. They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt and the Quarian attack stopped that ability and forced their hand into accepting the Reaper offer to enable this to happen.

The problem is that the geth never solved for peace at ALL.
I didn't see them letting peace ships inside their borders. I didn't see them disavowing the Heretics. I didn't see them trying to make any form of contact with anyone else between any of the games.

And again, by accepting the Reaper's upgrades at the end of the Rannoch War, isn't that conforming to Heretic mentalaty? Using Reaper tech to achieve their goal?

Face it - the geth aren't the abused cherubs you think they are.

Hmm, when I brought a peaceful Geth platform to Tali's trial people, it looked to me as if they would have shot it if I wasn't there. Fact is, the Quarians would have attacked any Geth vessels, just as much as the Geth would have attacked Quarian vessels invading their territory.

Using Reaper tech for survival when they had lost not only a lot of their intelligence but their plan A (they dyson sphere). They aren't worshipping the Old Machines so I don't they are quite conforming to the Heretic mentality.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

Morlath wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Morlath wrote...
They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt...

So the geth aren't alive unless they are individuals?

Not what I said, not what Legion says.

What does it mean for a networked intelligence to become singular personalities? Doesn't this change what they are and who they are, effectively wiping out the geth and replacing them with something else?

It changes the nature of the Geth. The Geth are trying to transcend beyond collective intelligence and into individuality so that they can be unique personalities. Or at the very least one singular personality within the sphere so that all programs have the capacity for life.

But that is directly countered by what Legion tells you on the Heretic station, stating that all geth are unique from each-other, because all form different conclusions from the same data. All are different according to Legion.

Not really. It's hardly any different then typacal internetworking. Just on a bigger scale then previously. That AGAIN is directly countered by Legion, who says they would all become a single gestalt personalaty - NOt individuals any longer.

Essentially making the superstructure a geth reaper. How nice. All the reapers would have to do is build a cuttlefish hull and leave it open, roll up the array, and stuff it inside, add a control program, then weld the thing shut. Voila! a geth reaper.

The superstructure eliminates the differences between geth. Legion explains it: "The difference between Geth is perspective." "The difference between synthetics is a data file." Same OS, different data.

My computer has Windows 7. Yours has Windows 7. Mine has different data on it than yours does, yet they could have identical components and identical versions of operating systems. My computer is learning daily that it is equipment.  Some peoples' computers are seeing subversive messages from their owners.

[remydat]

Silver,

Pretty sure Xen believes the below about the Geth not being alive.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I consider the Geth to be machines: i.e. not alive. What she was advocating should have been one of the options at Rannoch. It would have been an interesting twist to the story.

But you went all Godwin on me on the last page.

[remydat]

Silver,

And again Shotgun is advocating controlling the Geth just like Xen.  I mean seriously what are your trying to claim? Shotgun has made it perfectly clear in these posts her views on the Geth are similar to Xens.  Tell me what I should believe when Shoutgun says she does not believe the Geth are alive and advocates taking control of the Geth?  You are running your mouth about something Shotgun has already said to me directly.  Why?

[quote]sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place.

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

[/quote]

[/quote]

[remydat]

Silver,

And finally the Quarians are prejudiced pre MW. Tali made it perfectly clear in ME1 that the quarians feared a geth rebellion. That fear was never proven to be true. When you make decisions not based on what someone did but what you imagine they would do because they are different that you, it is prejudice. We would not be having this discussion if the Geth were Quarians too.

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Morlath wrote...
They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt...

So the geth aren't alive unless they are individuals?

Not what I said, not what Legion says.

But a singular personality sounds a lot like an individual. And somehow they weren't alive before because you just implied they lack the ability to be alive (by saying it's something they want for all geth runtimes). 

Doesn't really make sense and sounds quite contradictory to what was established and the meta-info the geth writer gave the fandom on how he wrote them: Not individuals, not singular personalities, certainly not thriving for one, despite someone's best efforts to intorduce the idea.

Not sure if my memory is clouded or you're overinterpreting things.

What does it mean for a networked intelligence to become singular personalities? Doesn't this change what they are and who they are, effectively wiping out the geth and replacing them with something else?

It changes the nature of the Geth. The Geth are trying to transcend beyond collective intelligence and into individuality so that they can be unique personalities. Or at the very least one singular personality within the sphere so that all programs have the capacity for life.

Does that mean without the superstructure the geth weren't alive?

So when the Reapers ascend us they don't kill us, they change our nature. They are trying to help us transcend beyond individual intelligence and into collectivism which will forever free us from limitations of a singular mind. Or at the very least a too small and insignificant singular mind with only one perspective. They give us the capacity for life.

Modifié par klarabella, 15 mai 2013 - 08:33 .

[remydat]

The Geth were not fully evolved. They were still alive. Two different things. Back when humanity first evolved from other primates we were alive but not fully evolved.

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...
The Geth were not fully evolved. They were still alive. Two different things. Back when humanity first evolved from other primates we were alive but not fully evolved.

What does "fully evolved" mean?

[remydat]

That is the exact term used in the game. The implication was that their intelligence was limited by the fact they needed to be networked with each other. Hence why a single unit had no greater intelligence than a varren.

Fully evolved to me would mean that while they could still connect to the consensus their intelligence was no longer limited by not being connected to the consensus. In other words their processing power was high enough that while it was preferable for them to still operate as a consensus it was jo longer a requirement.

In this instance the consensus is akin to the Quarians suits. It is a necessity for them to survive because without it there are dumber. However post peace the Quairians dont need their suits to survive hut may still find it preferable to use them. Likewise the Geth no longer need the consensus but it is still preferable as a means to share information.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 09:31 .

[silverexile17s]

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Morlath wrote...

https://www.youtube....h?v=Hro9UbqEXZw

"The Geth cannot solve for peace alone"

Right at the end Legion explains the importance of the Dyson Sphere and why they ignored Soverign by trying to do it themselves. They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt and the Quarian attack stopped that ability and forced their hand into accepting the Reaper offer to enable this to happen.

The problem is that the geth never solved for peace at ALL.
I didn't see them letting peace ships inside their borders. I didn't see them disavowing the Heretics. I didn't see them trying to make any form of contact with anyone else between any of the games.

And again, by accepting the Reaper's upgrades at the end of the Rannoch War, isn't that conforming to Heretic mentalaty? Using Reaper tech to achieve their goal?

Face it - the geth aren't the abused cherubs you think they are.

Hmm, when I brought a peaceful Geth platform to Tali's trial people, it looked to me as if they would have shot it if I wasn't there. Fact is, the Quarians would have attacked any Geth vessels, just as much as the Geth would have attacked Quarian vessels invading their territory.

Using Reaper tech for survival when they had lost not only a lot of their intelligence but their plan A (they dyson sphere). They aren't worshipping the Old Machines so I don't they are quite conforming to the Heretic mentality.

They didn't attack the unexpected Cerberus ship when it neared the Migrant Fleet. They didn't shoot Legion at all. Thus far, the quarians have at the very lest proven they have some more restraint. After all, at lest they ward off the people they don't want to talk to, instead of shooting them outright.

But the entire point the Heretics followed Sovergin was so that they could get access to Reaper tech and use it to upgrade their abilaties. Legion says the entire reason they split was because the True Geth did not believe the geth should use alien tech to advance themselves - NOT anything to do with worship. That wasn't where the disagreement was.
And by using Reaper tech, they have basically conformed to the Heretic's goal of upgrading the geth with Reaper tech.

[KingZayd]

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Morlath wrote...

https://www.youtube....h?v=Hro9UbqEXZw

"The Geth cannot solve for peace alone"

Right at the end Legion explains the importance of the Dyson Sphere and why they ignored Soverign by trying to do it themselves. They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt and the Quarian attack stopped that ability and forced their hand into accepting the Reaper offer to enable this to happen.

The problem is that the geth never solved for peace at ALL.
I didn't see them letting peace ships inside their borders. I didn't see them disavowing the Heretics. I didn't see them trying to make any form of contact with anyone else between any of the games.

And again, by accepting the Reaper's upgrades at the end of the Rannoch War, isn't that conforming to Heretic mentalaty? Using Reaper tech to achieve their goal?

Face it - the geth aren't the abused cherubs you think they are.

Hmm, when I brought a peaceful Geth platform to Tali's trial people, it looked to me as if they would have shot it if I wasn't there. Fact is, the Quarians would have attacked any Geth vessels, just as much as the Geth would have attacked Quarian vessels invading their territory.

Using Reaper tech for survival when they had lost not only a lot of their intelligence but their plan A (they dyson sphere). They aren't worshipping the Old Machines so I don't they are quite conforming to the Heretic mentality.

They didn't attack the unexpected Cerberus ship when it neared the Migrant Fleet. They didn't shoot Legion at all. Thus far, the quarians have at the very lest proven they have some more restraint. After all, at lest they ward off the people they don't want to talk to, instead of shooting them outright.

But the entire point the Heretics followed Sovergin was so that they could get access to Reaper tech and use it to upgrade their abilaties. Legion says the entire reason they split was because the True Geth did not believe the geth should use alien tech to advance themselves - NOT anything to do with worship. That wasn't where the disagreement was.
And by using Reaper tech, they have basically conformed to the Heretic's goal of upgrading the geth with Reaper tech.

They wouldn't "ward off" synthetics. They'd blow them up. The only difference is there are more organics in the galaxy than  synthetics.

They followed Sovereign because they admired it. That's why they left  with the Reaper. When have we ever seen the Reapers offer something for free? Being a Heretic Geth is about more than just using Reaper tech.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

Pretty sure Xen believes the below about the Geth not being alive.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I consider the Geth to be machines: i.e. not alive. What she was advocating should have been one of the options at Rannoch. It would have been an interesting twist to the story.

But you went all Godwin on me on the last page.

Pretty sure you got confussed. AGAIN.
Saying "interesting twist" is ONCE AGAIN, not the same as supporting the morals. Also, you only copied HALF her statements and ignored her original statement about how she noted that Xen did NOT want the geth dead. Also, she STILL reconizes the geth have rights. And ONCE AGAIN, admirition of someone's skils does not mean they agree with the MORALS.
Like I said, why don't yoy stop dancing around it and ASK HER?

[silverexile17s]

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Morlath wrote...

https://www.youtube....h?v=Hro9UbqEXZw

"The Geth cannot solve for peace alone"

Right at the end Legion explains the importance of the Dyson Sphere and why they ignored Soverign by trying to do it themselves. They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt and the Quarian attack stopped that ability and forced their hand into accepting the Reaper offer to enable this to happen.

The problem is that the geth never solved for peace at ALL.
I didn't see them letting peace ships inside their borders. I didn't see them disavowing the Heretics. I didn't see them trying to make any form of contact with anyone else between any of the games.

And again, by accepting the Reaper's upgrades at the end of the Rannoch War, isn't that conforming to Heretic mentalaty? Using Reaper tech to achieve their goal?

Face it - the geth aren't the abused cherubs you think they are.

Hmm, when I brought a peaceful Geth platform to Tali's trial people, it looked to me as if they would have shot it if I wasn't there. Fact is, the Quarians would have attacked any Geth vessels, just as much as the Geth would have attacked Quarian vessels invading their territory.

Using Reaper tech for survival when they had lost not only a lot of their intelligence but their plan A (they dyson sphere). They aren't worshipping the Old Machines so I don't they are quite conforming to the Heretic mentality.

They didn't attack the unexpected Cerberus ship when it neared the Migrant Fleet. They didn't shoot Legion at all. Thus far, the quarians have at the very lest proven they have some more restraint. After all, at lest they ward off the people they don't want to talk to, instead of shooting them outright.

But the entire point the Heretics followed Sovergin was so that they could get access to Reaper tech and use it to upgrade their abilaties. Legion says the entire reason they split was because the True Geth did not believe the geth should use alien tech to advance themselves - NOT anything to do with worship. That wasn't where the disagreement was.
And by using Reaper tech, they have basically conformed to the Heretic's goal of upgrading the geth with Reaper tech.

They wouldn't "ward off" synthetics. They'd blow them up. The only difference is there are more organics in the galaxy than  synthetics.

They followed Sovereign because they admired it. That's why they left  with the Reaper. When have we ever seen the Reapers offer something for free? Being a Heretic Geth is about more than just using Reaper tech.

They didn't kill Legion. Their first instinct was NOT to shoot him, remember? And Kal'Reegar didn't shoot Legion if he was on Haestrom. Face it - the quarians have shown more restraint to enemy forces then the geth have.

Legion says that religious beliefs had NOTHING to do with the split. The True Geth admired what Sovergien was too, but didn't agree with the concept of accepting handouts. THAT'S the only reason they seperated.

[KingZayd]

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Morlath wrote...

https://www.youtube....h?v=Hro9UbqEXZw

"The Geth cannot solve for peace alone"

Right at the end Legion explains the importance of the Dyson Sphere and why they ignored Soverign by trying to do it themselves. They want all Geth programs the ability to be alive and a singular personality rather than a gestalt and the Quarian attack stopped that ability and forced their hand into accepting the Reaper offer to enable this to happen.

The problem is that the geth never solved for peace at ALL.
I didn't see them letting peace ships inside their borders. I didn't see them disavowing the Heretics. I didn't see them trying to make any form of contact with anyone else between any of the games.

And again, by accepting the Reaper's upgrades at the end of the Rannoch War, isn't that conforming to Heretic mentalaty? Using Reaper tech to achieve their goal?

Face it - the geth aren't the abused cherubs you think they are.

Hmm, when I brought a peaceful Geth platform to Tali's trial people, it looked to me as if they would have shot it if I wasn't there. Fact is, the Quarians would have attacked any Geth vessels, just as much as the Geth would have attacked Quarian vessels invading their territory.

Using Reaper tech for survival when they had lost not only a lot of their intelligence but their plan A (they dyson sphere). They aren't worshipping the Old Machines so I don't they are quite conforming to the Heretic mentality.

They didn't attack the unexpected Cerberus ship when it neared the Migrant Fleet. They didn't shoot Legion at all. Thus far, the quarians have at the very lest proven they have some more restraint. After all, at lest they ward off the people they don't want to talk to, instead of shooting them outright.

But the entire point the Heretics followed Sovergin was so that they could get access to Reaper tech and use it to upgrade their abilaties. Legion says the entire reason they split was because the True Geth did not believe the geth should use alien tech to advance themselves - NOT anything to do with worship. That wasn't where the disagreement was.
And by using Reaper tech, they have basically conformed to the Heretic's goal of upgrading the geth with Reaper tech.

They wouldn't "ward off" synthetics. They'd blow them up. The only difference is there are more organics in the galaxy than  synthetics.

They followed Sovereign because they admired it. That's why they left  with the Reaper. When have we ever seen the Reapers offer something for free? Being a Heretic Geth is about more than just using Reaper tech.

They didn't kill Legion. Their first instinct was NOT to shoot him, remember? And Kal'Reegar didn't shoot Legion if he was on Haestrom. Face it - the quarians have shown more restraint to enemy forces then the geth have.

Legion says that religious beliefs had NOTHING to do with the split. The True Geth admired what Sovergien was too, but didn't agree with the concept of accepting handouts. THAT'S the only reason they seperated.

Only because I was there. If it was a Quarian accompanying them you know what they'd have done? killed the Geth and then exiled the Quarian

Religious beliefs didn't cause the split but the Heretics did develop them. The Reapers don't just give handouts. Legion tells you: Sovereign was approaching a bunch of races looking for an army. It was a trade.

Modifié par KingZayd, 16 mai 2013 - 04:05 .