826 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

shodiswe wrote...

Just playing around with Remys sugestion. I do wonder however if the Jews in the na*zi camps woudl have accepted guns and superior equipment from the Reapers in Exchange for killing their tormentors.

You can be damn well sure at least some of them would have done so without even blinking.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

@Morlath,
This is taking us nowhere. Just tell me what makes the Geth so trustworthy to you. But please keep in mind everything the Geth done. Also don't say what other parties have done. I want to know only about the Geth.

And this is why one of my posts brought up the fact that it's incredibly difficult to prove a negative.

You've already taken the decision that the Geth are guilty until proven innocent.

Someone is found in a room with a dead body. One court needs guilt to be proven, the other innocence.

Evidence - There was an argument.
Evidence - No fingerprints of any kind on murder weapon

Innocent Court - Well the argument means that there may have been a motive but without proof said person did it/used the weapon, we can't find guilty.

Guilty Court - I've seen no proof of innocence. No finger prints means they may have wiped them off or used gloves. The argument is a smoking gun, guilty as charged.

Just answer the Question dude. You can't deny that Geth sided with Reapers when it suites them or they don't care about organics.

[shodiswe]

johnnythao89 wrote...

All of this prejudice will not solve the OP's question. And I'm pretty sure by now, he's gonna have to pick one or none. And right now, we are only looking at Legion's view and the Geth's. Bringing exclusive problems that do not relate to the thread will not help the halt of the expansion of this ridiculous thread that should have stopped pages ago.

Sometimes an altered out of the box perspective can bring clarity. Thoguh it doesn't seem to help in this case since people have made this a Geth Vs Quarians thread and it's all about favrite species. Not the question at hand.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

Geth allowed Heretics to do what they did, did they not?

The Geth allowed their own kind to go their own way.

So the Geth are partly responsible for what Heretics did.

The Geth have no emotional attachment to organics. They have a live-and-let-live attitude with them the same as organics do with the Geth. If a rogue group of organics decided to attack the Geth with the knowledge of the Council/Alliance brass do you think they'd kill the organics to save the Geth?

Also why do you accept the Rannoch war was so black and white? Reaper code or death! Really?

Because the Geth's were putting all their eggs in the Sphere basket and that got destroyed. It was the focal point of their hopes and dreams of trancending their existence.

You are also ignoring Geth got themselves into that spot with may of their early actions.

Right. Because something that happens 200 years in the past should always be used as a way of dictating actions now.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

Just answer the Question dude. You can't deny that Geth sided with Reapers when it suites them or they don't care about organics.

I was pointing out that regardless of anything I have said, your anti-Geth perspective (ie, the Geth are guilty) allows you to not see what's being said.

I've answered the question plenty of times in this thread.

- Both the Geth and Organics (excluding Quarians) have a mutual attitude. As long as neither side does anything to the other they let them carry on.

- One splinter group sided with the Reapers and then the rest of the Geth did so out of the need for survival.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

@Morlath,
This is taking us nowhere. Just tell me what makes the Geth so trustworthy to you. But please keep in mind everything the Geth done. Also don't say what other parties have done. I want to know only about the Geth.

And this is why one of my posts brought up the fact that it's incredibly difficult to prove a negative.

You've already taken the decision that the Geth are guilty until proven innocent.

Someone is found in a room with a dead body. One court needs guilt to be proven, the other innocence.

Evidence - There was an argument.
Evidence - No fingerprints of any kind on murder weapon

Innocent Court - Well the argument means that there may have been a motive but without proof said person did it/used the weapon, we can't find guilty.

Guilty Court - I've seen no proof of innocence. No finger prints means they may have wiped them off or used gloves. The argument is a smoking gun, guilty as charged.

Just answer the Question dude. You can't deny that Geth sided with Reapers when it suites them or they don't care about organics.

You are missing the bigger Picture, that's the problem.

[Morlath]

shodiswe wrote...

Sometimes an altered out of the box perspective can bring clarity. Thoguh it doesn't seem to help in this case since people have made this a Geth Vs Quarians thread and it's all about favrite species. Not the question at hand.

Somewhere back in the pages I actually did answer the question in general. But like most Geth threads, it ends up being an attack on the species as a whole.

[Excella Gionne]

shodiswe wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...

All of this prejudice will not solve the OP's question. And I'm pretty sure by now, he's gonna have to pick one or none. And right now, we are only looking at Legion's view and the Geth's. Bringing exclusive problems that do not relate to the thread will not help the halt of the expansion of this ridiculous thread that should have stopped pages ago.

Sometimes an altered out of the box perspective can bring clarity. Thoguh it doesn't seem to help in this case since people have made this a Geth Vs Quarians thread and it's all about favrite species. Not the question at hand.

Yes, I'm starting to see a lot of that. I already put up my answer back on pg 19. But this is Mass Effect, and there are so many ways you can go with that.

[Morlath]

shodiswe wrote...

You are missing the bigger Picture, that's the problem.

Do you want to try explaining it? Please?

[Argolas]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Geth allowed Heretics to do what they did, did they not?

The Geth allowed their own kind to go their own way.

So the Geth are partly responsible for what Heretics did.

The Geth have no emotional attachment to organics. They have a live-and-let-live attitude with them the same as organics do with the Geth. If a rogue group of organics decided to attack the Geth with the knowledge of the Council/Alliance brass do you think they'd kill the organics to save the Geth?

The Geth let the heretics go, knowing that the heretics were going to attack organics, and the Geth didn't even care to give a warning (and don't tell me nobody would listen, if the Geth themselves transmitted a signal to the Citadel stating where an agressive faction of theirs was preparing an attack it would have been investigated, it might even have been the beginning of cooperation). That's fine, it's their right to not care about organics, but then they must expect nothing more or less than the favor returned.

Morlath wrote...

Also why do you accept the Rannoch war was so black and white? Reaper code or death! Really?

Because the Geth's were putting all their eggs in the Sphere basket and that got destroyed. It was the focal point of their hopes and dreams of trancending their existence.

And Rannoch is the focal point of Quarians' hopes and dreams to have a home. It was a stupid move that the Geth built their superstructure on Rannoch and they paid the price. The Quarians didn't come for the Geth, they came for Rannoch.

Morlath wrote...

You are also ignoring Geth got themselves into that spot with may of their early actions.

Right. Because something that happens 200 years in the past should always be used as a way of dictating actions now.

Those are the same Geth like in the Morning War while the ancestors of the Quarians they took Rannoch from are still without homeworld. If course it's still an issue, for both sides. The Quarians are still hostile towards the Geth because of it, and the Geth still hold onto what they took away back then.

Modifié par Argolas, 16 mai 2013 - 06:45 .

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Remy, I'll admit, I'm prejudiced against the Geth. Now will you admit you are prejudiced against the Quarians. You're posts reek of it: i.e. calling the Quarians "douchebags", continuously misspelling Gerrel's name, using hyperbole to support your pro-Geth arguments. Just admit your own prejudice and be done with it. You are no better.

I am prejudiced against aggressors just as the law is prejudiced against aggressors.

And I have already made an offer that was ignored.  I said I am happy to execute all Geth who initially voted for war against the Quarians provided we also execute all Quarians who voted for War against the Geth.  Where do you see prejudice?  That offer was made pages ago and no one on the Quarian side has accepted it.

And I call them douchebags because aggressors are douchebags.  What am I suppose to call people who attack unarmed people who were serving them faithfully?  I repeat serving them faithfully.

I use analogies because you have stated clearly you don't consider the Geth alive.  Others have made comments that make it obvious that they see them as machines.  So I use real life examples of fleshy organics doing things similar to what the Quarians did to the Geth because it seems to be the only way some Quarian supporters can actually consider some of the things they are saying.  I have heard defenses for the Quarians that no one would every make if the Geth where fleshy organics.

Finally, I mispell Gherel's name just to screw with you guys because you guys seem to get irritated by it when this is a fictional character.

[remydat]

Argolas,

If Cerberus were planning to attack the Geth and the Geth alone, would the Alliance wage war against them to prevent them from attacking the Geth.

I mean what is the logic here. Hey Geth go fight the Heretics and Sovereign and pray to god the Quarians never find out and then reward your sacrifice by choosing to attack you once your have killed yourself enough that they think they can win.

Modifié par remydat, 16 mai 2013 - 07:00 .

[Morlath]

remydat wrote...

Argolas,

If Cerberus were planning to attack the Geth and the Geth alone, would the Alliance wage war against them to prevent them from attacking the Geth.

I mean what is the logic here. Hey Geth go fight the Heretics and Sovereign and pray to god the Quarians never find out and then reward your sacrifice by choosing to attack you once your have killed yourself enough that they think they can win.

The "logic" here is that it's organics being attacked. That's it.

Regardless of the troubles Geth have had in the past with organics, the Geths should have sacrificed themselves against their own kind to save the organics from Sovereign and the Heretics.

[Morlath]

Argolas wrote...

The Geth let the heretics go, knowing that the heretics were going to attack organics, and the Geth didn't even care to give a warning (and don't tell me nobody would listen, if the Geth themselves transmitted a signal to the Citadel stating where an agressive faction of theirs was preparing an attack it would have been investigated, it might even have been the beginning of cooperation). That's fine, it's their right to not care about organics, but then they must expect nothing more or less than the favor returned.

I agree. It would have been a great peace offering if the Geth had sent such a signal.

But let me ask you this. Why should the Geth do such a thing? There is an essential cease-fire with the Quarians, the Geth and other Organics have an uneasy peace treaty (you don't go into our space, we won't go into yours) and the only organic species the Geth have had prolonged contact with tried to exterminate them.

What is the relationship between Geth and organics that the Geth are under any obligation to send such a message?

People argue that the Geth needed to make the first steps towards peace without showing at any stage where this young species has had a reason to believe peace is an option.

And Rannoch is the focal point of Quarians' hopes and dreams to have a home. It was a stupid move that the Geth built their superstructure on Rannoch and they paid the price. The Quarians didn't come for the Geth, they came for Rannoch.

I think it's safe to assume that at least some of the Quarians wanted to stick it to the Geth.

Our friend (can't remeber his name off-hand) during the Tali recruitment mission pretty much states that as long as he takes out as many Geth as possible he'll die a happy Quarian. The Geth are the Enemy.

Those are the same Geth like in the Morning War while the ancestors of the Quarians they took Rannoch from are still without homeworld. If course it's still an issue, for both sides. The Quarians are still hostile towards the Geth because of it, and the Geth still hold onto what they took away back then.

I'm not saying it's not an issue. I'm arguing that the Geth aren't the totally bad, all consuming evil in this piece that people want them to be.

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

Argolas,

If Cerberus were planning to attack the Geth and the Geth alone, would the Alliance wage war against them to prevent them from attacking the Geth.

I mean what is the logic here. Hey Geth go fight the Heretics and Sovereign and pray to god the Quarians never find out and then reward your sacrifice by choosing to attack you once your have killed yourself enough that they think they can win.

Morlath wrote...

But let me ask you this. Why should the Geth do such a thing? There is an essential cease-fire with the Quarians, the Geth and other Organics have an uneasy peace treaty (you don't go into our space, we won't go into yours) and the only organic species the Geth have had prolonged contact with tried to exterminate them.

What is the relationship between Geth and organics that the Geth are under any obligation to send such a message?

People argue that the Geth needed to make the first steps towards peace without showing at any stage where this young species has had a reason to believe peace is an option.
I agree with you. I never claimed organics=good and Geth=bad. As I said, it's a mutual bad attitude for which you need to blame both sides.

I agree with you both on this. It's a mutual bad attitude for which you can blame both. I prefer to consider it a misunderstanding due to a lack of communication. Both organics and Geth were okay with just staying away from each other. Geth attacked organics entering Geth space and it's most likely that any Geth ship outside the Perseus Veil would have been attacked as well, at least the Quarians would, probably every other organic who is equipped to do that would as well. That was plain and simply the wrong path. When two cultures part in war and never communicate afterwards, they will think of the other one as evil, no doubt.

Morlath wrote...

I think it's safe to assume that at least some of the Quarians wanted to stick it to the Geth.

Our friend (can't remeber his name off-hand) during the Tali recruitment mission pretty much states that as long as he takes out as many Geth as possible he'll die a happy Quarian. The Geth are the Enemy.

I don't doubt that (I think his name was Kal'Reeger or something like that). However, he's a marine, I'm sure soldiers talk like that about mysterious enemies that your people tell horror tales about. I think the most popular attitude among the Quarians is probably that they need Rannoch and don't mind wiping out the Geth in order to get it, however most of them would also change their attitude once they manage to see behind the monster myths they know of- see Tali- in ME1: she would have wiped out the Geth without hesitation, and she's definately not a bad person. That doesn't mean there aren't any bad Quarians. Xen, for example, indeed came for the Geth, and I have my doubts against Gerrel as well. First I believed he just supported the attack because he wanted to win Rannoch back to save his people from the Reapers, his reaction in the "Geth win" scenario however pretty much proves that the Quarian people wasn't really his primary concern.

Morlath wrote...

I'm not saying it's not an issue. I'm arguing that the Geth aren't the totally bad, all consuming evil in this piece that people want them to be.

Again, agreed.

Modifié par Argolas, 16 mai 2013 - 07:35 .

[Morlath]

Argolas wrote...

I agree with you both on this. It's a mutual bad attitude for which you can blame both. I prefer to consider it a misunderstanding due to a lack of communication. Both organics and Geth were okay with just staying away from each other. Geth attacked organics entering Geth space and it's most likely that any Geth ship outside the Perseus Veil would have been attacked as well, at least the Quarians would, probably every other organic who is equipped to do that would as well. That was plain and simply the wrong path. When two cultures part in war and never communicate afterwards, they will think of the other one as evil, no doubt.

Absolutely. And all a situation like that needs is one spark for everything to fall apart. In the MEU that spark is the Quarian attack.

I don't doubt that (I think his name was Kal'Reeger or something like that). However, he's a marine, I'm sure soldiers talk like that about mysterious enemies that your people tell horror tales about. I think the most popular attitude among the Quarians is probably that they need Rannoch and don't mind wiping out the Geth in order to get it, however most of them would also change their attitude once they manage to see behind the monster myths they know of- see Tali- in ME1: she would have wiped out the Geth without hesitation, and she's definately not a bad person. That doesn't mean there aren't any bad Quarians. Xen, for example, indeed came for the Geth, and I have my doubts against Gerrel as well. First I believed he just supported the attack because he wanted to win Rannoch back to save his people from the Reapers, his reaction in the "Geth win" scenario however pretty much proves that the Quarian people wasn't really his primary concern.

Good points and I have no trouble with the Quarian people per se nor do I have too much of a problem with their "boogeyman" fear of the Geth. That is, after all, a natural reaction in their situation. My problem lies in the Quarian leadership.

The attack was voted for 3-2. This means that a decision putting their entire species at risk (you don't go to war with only one kill-switch plan and no backup) wasn't unanimous. And when you've got one zealot and another potential extremist wanting a war with the Geth all it needs is one person just wanting their home back to threaten the entire Quarian people.

[Lady Abstract]

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

yea there were alot of questionable things in this game but hey maybe when legion was hooked up to the machine in me3 he got reprogrammed or something?? Idk i lov the me2 legion but there is something very different about the me3 one even in the way he talks. He was more robotic in me2 and in me3 idk his voice was...different...i even looked to see if there was a different guy voicing him 

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

@Morlath,
This is taking us nowhere. Just tell me what makes the Geth so trustworthy to you. But please keep in mind everything the Geth done. Also don't say what other parties have done. I want to know only about the Geth.

And this is why one of my posts brought up the fact that it's incredibly difficult to prove a negative.

You've already taken the decision that the Geth are guilty until proven innocent.

Someone is found in a room with a dead body. One court needs guilt to be proven, the other innocence.

Evidence - There was an argument.
Evidence - No fingerprints of any kind on murder weapon

Innocent Court - Well the argument means that there may have been a motive but without proof said person did it/used the weapon, we can't find guilty.

Guilty Court - I've seen no proof of innocence. No finger prints means they may have wiped them off or used gloves. The argument is a smoking gun, guilty as charged.

Just answer the Question dude. You can't deny that Geth sided with Reapers when it suites them or they don't care about organics.

You are missing the bigger Picture, that's the problem.

Oh I can see the bigger picture. That's why I can't fogive the Geth for their actions.

[Cyrax86]

More Geth propaganda (i posted this in another thread)

Some Quarians try to de-activate the, Some Quarians defend the Geth, Geth decide to kill every Quarian (and a few from other races/species).

Ambassador(Council)ships are sent to Rannoch post MW, Geth shoot down all ships entering their area of space.

H.Geth decided to worship Reapers, knowing full well the Reapers intended to attack organics , the rest of the Geth basically say "Ok go, we understand"

H.Geth attack a Human colony, then eventually attack the Citadel and Council, All Geth are labeled as a enemies of the Council, Geth do nothing.

:S Geth are persecuted, seems legit :S

A Geth (Legion) decides work with organics, why?, "mutually beneficial", he was doing it too help the Geth.

Tali and Legion having peace talks pre Rannoch, Legion severs contact.

During Geth server mission, Legion says "You're the first organic to work with the Geth"(or something like this), but how about all ambassador ships you shot down post MW, more lies of omission.


Legion/Geth have only helped when it was convenient for them. Look what happens when you decide to stop helping Legion on Rannoch. Geth would have joined the Reapers eventually.

[Ryzaki]

Least we can all side with those we want eh? And there's a peace option for some of us.

*huggles side with geth choice close*

[S.A.K]

Ryzaki wrote...

Least we can all side with those we want eh? And there's a peace option for some of us.

*huggles side with geth choice close*

True that. And we can get rid of the Geth after using them too.

[Ryzaki]

Yep you get your best ending and I get mine. Everyone wins.

Well for a while anyways in my game

[S.A.K]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yep you get your best ending and I get mine. Everyone wins.

Well for a while anyways in my game

Agreed.

[Lady Abstract]

<_<  Geez people are still arguing about this geth vs quarian crap?? 

[Argolas]

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...

<_<  Geez people are still arguing about this geth vs quarian crap?? 

BSN is still active, isn't it? Geth vs. Quarians is one of the most interesting topics in Mass Effect.