826 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But AGAIN, I don't see her advocating that enslaving them is MORALLY sound. Saying something is just a machine is one thing, but in case you FAILED to see (and you obviously did), she did not say it was morally sound. Just that it made logical sense to do, since it would have netted the quarians the most. She agrees that it's a LOGICALLY sound move. ONCE AGAIN, you FAIL to provide anything where she says it's morally sound. I'm amused by how you keep dancing around the issue without ever confronting it. Also, since YOU haven't even ASKED her, how would you know?
So, AGAIN, when you work up the courage to ask her the DIFFERENCE between morally sound and logically sound, "Let me know." Because I'm pretty sure that Spock from Star Trek would tell you there IS a diffinitive difference between what is morally sound and what is logically sound.

Did I say she said it was morally sound?.  That is irrelevant.  I said she shares Xen's views.  The Geth are not alive and she advocated essentially enslaving them.  Both opinions are shared by Xen period. 

You have invented an argument (morally sound) and then pretended like it was what I was arguing.  Link to a most where I said that?  I said she believes what Xen believes.  Period.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Your initial argument is oyinbo nonsense. NDNs and other indigenous peoples are neither extinct nor disappeared from their native lands. Nor are their claims to them any less valid. Do not use them nor their past and present suffering, or the very real effects of imperialism as rhetorical devices for your f*ckass debate. Stick to the video game and do not try to compare the history of fictional f*cking robots to the injustice meted out to victims of colonialism.

Oh, we can talk about that sh*t, but this thread will be filled with tears and locked within ten minutes.

If you can't make a convincing argument on source material alone, you don't have an argument. Stop.

If you don't want to talk about it then don't.  That is your choice.  I am free to talk about whatever I want period.  As one of those victims of colonialism, when I see arguments that no one in the real world would ever really use or support being used on the basis that oh well it is a fictional character then I will point it out.  No one in the real world gives a sh*t about my people's 300 year old claims so the fact they come on here trumpeting the 300 year old claims of a fictional race rings completely hollow to me.  It is being said precisely because it is fictional which means it is not really an in-universe argument.

If your argument could never be made in real life then don't bring it up to me.  Most of these threads are discussing matters from an in-universe perspective so your falling back on it's fiction simply makes no sense.  Once you choose to engage in a debate from an in-universe perspective then there is an assumption that the characters and situations are in some way comparable to real life behavior and emotions.

You can't really have it both ways.  If you want to criticize a character and say their decisions don't make sense from an in-universe perspective then you open up yourself to the rebuttal of but it is entirely consistent with how real people behave.  That is the price of trying to make an in-universe argument.  If you don't want to pay that price then just say that you hate the story and keep it moving.

Um... NO YOU AREN'T.
This is a fictional debate. You don't HAVE any right to drag other real-life cultures and their struggles, OR real-life sensitive topics, historical or otherwise, into said fictional debate. It's callous, insensitive, and downright insulting to many. Not tio mention it shows that you can't make an arguement based on In-Game information. To drag something like the Native-Americans, or Httler & the Jews, or Accidental pregnancies & abortion into this, is just downright insulting, as it shows you have ZERO respect for either the feelings of people, or the topic itself.
Also, don't you think the fact that EVEYONE is decrying you for it CONTRIDICTS the "They don't give a sh*t" Ideal?

If you don't think people can h have it both ways, stop TRYING to have it both ways with these real-life events.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But AGAIN, I don't see her advocating that enslaving them is MORALLY sound. Saying something is just a machine is one thing, but in case you FAILED to see (and you obviously did), she did not say it was morally sound. Just that it made logical sense to do, since it would have netted the quarians the most. She agrees that it's a LOGICALLY sound move. ONCE AGAIN, you FAIL to provide anything where she says it's morally sound. I'm amused by how you keep dancing around the issue without ever confronting it. Also, since YOU haven't even ASKED her, how would you know?
So, AGAIN, when you work up the courage to ask her the DIFFERENCE between morally sound and logically sound, "Let me know." Because I'm pretty sure that Spock from Star Trek would tell you there IS a diffinitive difference between what is morally sound and what is logically sound.

Did I say she said it was morally sound?.  That is irrelevant.  I said she shares Xen's views.  The Geth are not alive and she advocated essentially enslaving them.  Both opinions are shared by Xen period. 

You have invented an argument (morally sound) and then pretended like it was what I was arguing.  Link to a most where I said that?  I said she believes what Xen believes.  Period.

Um.... Thats the ENTIRE REASON YOU WERE POSTING BEFORE. Just a few posts ago, you said that she was in complete agreement with Xen's morals. Now, you do a complete 180 and say the point YOU brought up doesn't matter?

And AGAIN, she agrees with the logic of Xen's views because they make actual sense. But in truth, she prefers the Peace option. She advocated the LOGIC such a tactic would make in using against the geth - I did NOT see an endorsement.

YOU were the one that brought "morally sound" into this argeuement. LOOK BACK AT THE LAST 6 PAGES. She agrees with the LOGICAL PREMISE of Xen's actions. PERIOD. I did NOT hear her say it the be-all ideal solution. PERIOD.

[KingZayd]

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


First off, an off-topic tangent....
Looking the same automatically equates to "having the same capabilaties in zero-gravity, vacaum, toxic environments, and radiation"? Surre. THAT'S not overgeneralization and antropmorphism at ALL...<_<
Seriously, dude, when did two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT species "looking the same" EVER mean they had the same capabilaties. Asari look like blue humans, but THEY sure don't have the same capabilaties, since, unlike humans, ALL asari can kill just by thinking about it with biotics, and can mate and have kids with anyone.
The geth are walking powerloaders programmed to be able to take up arms and kill at the drop of a dime. You SERIOUSLY are going to try and say that's not worth being afraid over? And the baseline geth model of today is the same as the original version. The "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality rings true for the geth in that regard. That explains why the geth would not have changed their apperance in 300 years.

...Getting off topic completely, aren't I? Back to the point of source material, the geth haven't changed at all from their past forms, since their presant apperance still matches past historical records. So the geth's apperance in that IS accurate.

Haven't you heard of context?

You said the Geth in that log looked identical to the way they look now. The Quarians look the same in that log as they do now despite the fact that we know they didn't know those suits before the war.

I say this because the Codex on Geth Hoppers in ME1 says that the baseline geth soldier is a match for the original historical record of the Morning War geth. It says that most of the newer models of geth (Juggernaught, Hopper, Armature) were not in the hsitorical records. Meaning that the standard model (Trooper, Sniper, Shock Trooper, Rocket Trooper) DO match their ancestroal selves.
THAT is proof - the baseline geth chassis is the SAME as the one from the Morning War.

No, it doesn't. It says there's no record of the Hopper model, but nothing about the baseline geth soldier being "a match for the original historical record of the Morning War Geth"

So where's the proof again?

AGAIN, dead wrong. The entry says that there is no match to the Hoppers in any historical records. Ergo, the current models ARE in the records. They state that the Hoppers are the ONLY models that don't seem to have diffinitive MW counterparts. Alongside the Armature.

So, THERE is my proof - AGAIN.

AGAIN, dead wrong. Just because the current standard Geth models don't look completely different to the old ones (it's a fairly basic design. Arms, legs, flashlight head etc), doesn't mean they haven't changed. The newer ones would have been made more combat ready than the old ones.

A prothean who had encountered humans 50000 years ago would probably have recognised us. Doesn't mean we haven't changed.


so, AGAIN, where is the proof?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Does YOUR gun move on it's own and turn it's own safety off? It your gun capable of screwing with it's own functions? Don't you think THAT'S something dangerous to have near your family, or on every street corner?  ONCE AGAIN, you completely miss the point. It's a loaded gun that can decide on it's OWN wheather or not the safety is in, or if it wants to shoot, or who. You REALLY think that's something safe to have an entire army of? And AGAIN, a gun doesn't NEED to be provoked to act in accordance with the reason it was BUILT. They stand the high risk of going off on their OWN, WITHOUT provication, After all, they reached sentiance WITHOUT provication. And AGAIN, you ignore the fact that the Council come in and provoke them anyway. You not doing anything would have changed ABO****LY NOTHING. How about you THINK about that?

 A geth is, by it's very nature, a walking, loaded gun. Now, all of a sudden, it's getting the power to turn off it's safeties, and decide who it does and doesn't want to kill. And there are millions of these in every house. Anyone that ignores this is gambling the lives of their families. Your own actions say the exact OPPOSATE about you having any value for your family. Or at least, not as much as the potentally unstable shotgun that can mess with it's own safeties.

Also, AGAIN, dead wrong. Once again, you try to paint everything as being a fault of quarian prejudice, when last I checked, it wasn't prejudice to fear a loaded gun. Espceally when said gun can decide when and where to turn off safeties and who it want's to shoot.

Here is the CORRECT version:
Quarian 1 - Our weapons of war on every street are at risk of going lose and becoming poetntally berserk. Millions of innocents will die if that happens.
Quarian 2 - We can't just ignore this - that would be the same as putting our families and loved one's lives on a coin toss. I CARE too much about my family to risk them for an an unstable killing machine.
Quarian 3 - Negotiation isn't much of an option - after all, what would completely self-suficant machines want from us? We'd be nothing of value to them.
Quarian 2 - I'm NOT going to risk my family for a killing machine.

Do you have ANY form of comprehension? You obviously DO have a problem with people being afraid, since you cannot seem to grasp that a gun that can walk around, turn off it's safeties, and decide who it want's to kill, when it want's to kill, being in EVERY HOUSE, and on EVERY STREET, is something that most people would ****** themselves at. Watch the move "I, Robot" with Will Smith to get a sense of the scenerio the quarians were terrified of.
If having a problem with "stupid things" is true, how exactally do you justify the morals of betting your brother and family on a coin toss? ONCE AGAIN, a loaded gun that hasn't shot someone is no less a threat. When said gun get's the power to switch off safeties and decide how and when to kill, it's even MORE of a threat, and once again, is so without having killed anyone before.
HERE are the facts - the geth are walking weapons. They are everywhere. They now have the power to decide who and when to kill. They have no directives to maintain them. They are basically uncontroable missiles, with no user control on where, when, or why they detonate. You REALLY want to peddle BS and say that's NOT something to be scared off? That it ISN'T something that cound endanger your family?
How callous.

Before they were attacked, show me were the Geth removed their own safety.  You are creating a false analogy. The Geth made no harmful moves against the Quarians before being attacked.  None.

And I asked a simple question.  What evidence did the Quarians have that they could WIN? Provoking a walking weapon when you have no assurances you can win is stupid.  

Here is the facts Silver.  Their chosen course of action failed miserably.  I repeat miserably.  Billions of people lost their lives.  I don't know what would have happened if they tried talking to the Geth.  But here is what I know.  I know with 100% certainty that trying to kill them resulted in billions dead.  I know talking to them has a probabilty of success between 0 and 100%.  The former is 100% fact.  Cannot be changed.  The latter is an unknown with varying degrees of success.

It is insanity to continue to defend the thing we know with 100% certainty failed while at the same time criticizing the option that we don't know whether it would succeed or not.  This is especially true when the Geth appeared to have no problem living in peace with the Quarians as the peace on Rannoch proves.

A sane person after seeing a decision result in billions dead would say to themselves perhaps there was another way.  A Quarians supporter instead hunkers down and because they can't admit the Quarian decision to provoke millions of walking weapons was strategically stupid keeps trying to defend the indefensible. 

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Um.... Thats the ENTIRE REASON YOU WERE POSTING BEFORE. Just a few posts ago, you said that she was in complete agreement with Xen's morals. Now, you do a complete 180 and say the point YOU brought up doesn't matter?

And AGAIN, she agrees with the logic of Xen's views because they make actual sense. But in truth, she prefers the Peace option. She advocated the LOGIC such a tactic would make in using against the geth - I did NOT see an endorsement.

YOU were the one that brought "morally sound" into this argeuement. LOOK BACK AT THE LAST 6 PAGES. She agrees with the LOGICAL PREMISE of Xen's actions. PERIOD. I did NOT hear her say it the be-all ideal solution. PERIOD.

Then find a post where I said it Silver.  I said she shared Xen's views and advocated the same things she did.  Those views being that the Geth are not alive and that they should be controlled/enslaved.  I don't want your continued rambling.  Find a post that supports your opinion.  According to you there are 6 pages worth of it so it shouldn't be hard.

Here I will help you out.  Here is one of my first exchanges back on page 15.  Now find where I said anything about morally sound or where Shotgun even denied this at all.  She has been responding to me for pages and has even admitted she is prejudiced.  Hell in this post back on page 15, I even predict you will continue to ignore the fact that she admitted to believing what Xen believed ie the Geth are not alive.  You have become so predictable it is laughable.

Don't you find it telling that the entire time you been running on about this, Shotgun hasn't actually come on here and claimed you are correct even though she has been reading and responding to this thread the whole time?

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I consider the Geth to be machines: i.e. not alive. What she was advocating should have been one of the options at Rannoch. It would have been an interesting twist to the story.

But you went all Godwin on me on the last page.

And the game makes it perfectly clear that they are alive.  Your refusal to accept that is no less prejudiced than any other form of prejudice.  Of course, I don't really care because this is just a fictional story but it is what it is.  I see no reason to pretend it is not prejudice when it clearly meets the definition of the word.

I mean honestly, what do you want me to call it?  

And I just find it amusing Silver keeps trying to tell me you don't share Xen's views when you clearly do.  Of course, Silver being Silver, he will probably just go ramble on about something else and say I don't understand anything despite you confirming what was already clear from your previous posts.

Modifié par remydat, 17 mai 2013 - 11:07 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Um... NO YOU AREN'T.
This is a fictional debate. You don't HAVE any right to drag other real-life cultures and their struggles, OR real-life sensitive topics, historical or otherwise, into said fictional debate. It's callous, insensitive, and downright insulting to many. Not tio mention it shows that you can't make an arguement based on In-Game information. To drag something like the Native-Americans, or Httler & the Jews, or Accidental pregnancies & abortion into this, is just downright insulting, as it shows you have ZERO respect for either the feelings of people, or the topic itself.
Also, don't you think the fact that EVEYONE is decrying you for it CONTRIDICTS the "They don't give a sh*t" Ideal?

If you don't think people can h have it both ways, stop TRYING to have it both ways with these real-life events.

Who is everyone?  The only people complaining are Quarian supporters who don't like the fact that I point out their arguments don't work in a real life.  And the "they don't give a sh*t" ideal was in reference to if you made this same argument in real life. 

In real life no one gives a sh*t about 300 year old land claims.  If you walked up to someone and told them your great great great great great grand daddy used to live there and you are there to claim that land back, they would laugh at you.  If you continued to trespass on their property, the police would be called.  If you pulled out a gun, they would shoot your a** and the cops would call it self defense.

The Quarians attacked.  They lost and and in the process lost their home.  Those people died a long time ago.  The Quarians that remain have no claim to Rannoch as they have never lived there period.  Never.  Even in the ME universe, the Council has not recognized their claim because they specifically had them sign a non-aggression pact to not provoke the Geth.  The official position is that the Far Rim and the PV is Geth space.  The only reason anyone other than the Quarians tolerate this sh*t is because of the Reapers.  Otherwise as Shep says, they would have been sanctioned period for violating the Treaty they signed.

Modifié par remydat, 17 mai 2013 - 11:22 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

remydat wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Your initial argument is oyinbo nonsense. NDNs and other indigenous peoples are neither extinct nor disappeared from their native lands. Nor are their claims to them any less valid. Do not use them nor their past and present suffering, or the very real effects of imperialism as rhetorical devices for your f*ckass debate. Stick to the video game and do not try to compare the history of fictional f*cking robots to the injustice meted out to victims of colonialism.

Oh, we can talk about that sh*t, but this thread will be filled with tears and locked within ten minutes.

If you can't make a convincing argument on source material alone, you don't have an argument. Stop.

If you don't want to talk about it then don't.  That is your choice.  I am free to talk about whatever I want period.

The quarians would not be analogous to anyone in human history, least of all displaced indigenous people. Something tells me you don't know how colonialism works. But you know, what? I'm too cute for this dumb bullsh*t. Beyonce, beytwice, beythrice, beygonce. Kill the devils, drive out the palefaces, etc.

I'm out.

[Cyrax86]

Funny how you mention real life situations, because if this really did happen, The Geth would be imprisoned, dead or we would be at war with them.


The Geth are continuously attacking and killing organics, it stops being self defense when you're pointing the gun at random people and killing people who aren't a threat to you.


After ME1 the Geth would have become an enemy to the council for attacking the citadel, No country, government, military etc.. would have allowed the Geth to continue doing what they been doing, the only reason the Geth are still around is because the council is borderline useless/incompetent.

a council race(Quarians) ask the council for help, after billions of their people are killed and their home planet is taken, = council does nothing

Council sends ambassador ships to Geth to negotiate peace or a treaty, ships are shot down when they enter Geth space, = Council does nothing

ME1 Geth attack Eden Prime, = Council does nothing

ME1 Geth attack Citadel/Council, = Council does nothing , Alliance is on clean up duty.

ME3 Geth willingly Join Reapers, = Council unable to do anything.

Who would sit back and allow the Geth to do what they did. Post ME3 what do you think is going to happen when everyone finds out Geth willingly joined the Reapers?. or How many more chances do the Geth receive?

[KingZayd]

Cyrax86 wrote...

Funny how you mention real life situations, because if this really did happen, The Geth would be imprisoned, dead or we would be at war with them.


The Geth are continuously attacking and killing organics, it stops being self defense when you're pointing the gun at random people and killing people who aren't a threat to you.


After ME1 the Geth would have become an enemy to the council for attacking the citadel, No country, government, military etc.. would have allowed the Geth to continue doing what they been doing, the only reason the Geth are still around is because the council is borderline useless/incompetent.

a council race(Quarians) ask the council for help, after billions of their people are killed and their home planet is taken, = council does nothing

Council sends ambassador ships to Geth to negotiate peace or a treaty, ships are shot down when they enter Geth space, = Council does nothing

ME1 Geth attack Eden Prime, = Council does nothing

ME1 Geth attack Citadel/Council, = Council does nothing , Alliance is on clean up duty.

ME3 Geth willingly Join Reapers, = Council unable to do anything.

Who would sit back and allow the Geth to do what they did. Post ME3 what do you think is going to happen when everyone finds out Geth willingly joined the Reapers?. or How many more chances do the Geth receive?

ME1: A small faction of the Geth attack Eden Prime, and the the Citadel/Council.
ME3: Quarian nation attacks Geth. The Geth don't attack anyone who isn't a threat.

[remydat]

Random Jerkface wrote...
The quarians would not be analogous to anyone in human history, least of all displaced indigenous people. Something tells me you don't know how colonialism works. But you know, what? I'm too cute for this dumb bullsh*t. Beyonce, beytwice, beythrice, beygonce. Kill the devils, drive out the palefaces, etc.

I'm out.

[*]A rudder is to a ship as a goal is to a person

See the analogy above.  Anybody who has taken the SAT understands the thing being compared here is the fact a rudder guides a ship just like a goal guides a person.  You responses are akin to saying a ship would not be analogous to anyone in human history as if the thing being compared is the ship and the person rather than the function of a rudder and a goal.

Likewise, the Quarians and Indigenous people are not what is being compared.  What is being compared is their desire for the home of ancestors that lived 300 years ago.  Trying to point out aspects between Quarians and indigenous peoples that are different is disingenuous as that is not what is being comapared.

So you seem confused by what an analogy entails.  

Modifié par remydat, 18 mai 2013 - 01:47 .

[remydat]

Cyrax86 wrote...

Funny how you mention real life situations, because if this really did happen, The Geth would be imprisoned, dead or we would be at war with them.


The Geth are continuously attacking and killing organics, it stops being self defense when you're pointing the gun at random people and killing people who aren't a threat to you.


After ME1 the Geth would have become an enemy to the council for attacking the citadel, No country, government, military etc.. would have allowed the Geth to continue doing what they been doing, the only reason the Geth are still around is because the council is borderline useless/incompetent.

a council race(Quarians) ask the council for help, after billions of their people are killed and their home planet is taken, = council does nothing

Council sends ambassador ships to Geth to negotiate peace or a treaty, ships are shot down when they enter Geth space, = Council does nothing

ME1 Geth attack Eden Prime, = Council does nothing

ME1 Geth attack Citadel/Council, = Council does nothing , Alliance is on clean up duty.

ME3 Geth willingly Join Reapers, = Council unable to do anything.

Who would sit back and allow the Geth to do what they did. Post ME3 what do you think is going to happen when everyone finds out Geth willingly joined the Reapers?. or How many more chances do the Geth receive?

No in real life the Geth would likely be declared unfit to stand trial during the MW because they do not possess the mental capacity to understand the ramifications of their actions as there is no evidence their creators taught them morals.

In real life, an enemy sending uninvited ships into your space would be considered an act of war as North Korea can't just up and send planes into US Air Space uninvited.

The Heretics would be punished just like they were punsihed in ME1.  However, the Geth that were not a party to their crimes ie the Orthodox Geth would not be punsihed just like I don't get punished every time someone of my race commits a crime.

Finally, the Geth alliance with the Reapers would be viewed as a decision made UNDER DURESS because of the current genocide being visited upon them.  If you are unclear on what duress means then here is a link which also discusses the validity of it as a legal defense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress

The only way none of the above applies is to consider them JUST MACHINES or NOT ALIVE which given the story makes it pretty clear they are would simply be exhibiting prejudice against them because you don't value their form of life.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

simfamSP wrote...

ME1 Geth attack Citadel/Council, = Council does nothing , Alliance is on clean up duty.

Exactly, they were on clean up duty. Any pockets of the Geth left within Council Space were dealt with.

But I see your point, the Geth by now should have been extinct... that would have been a cool mission in ME2, imagine Rannoch but larger in scale, minus the bloody Reaper Code.

This BOLD is the whole thing. The Council is full of a bunch of idiots. Earth is on clean up duty after the attack on the Citadel. After the Morning War, seeing how big of a threat the Geth, SYNTHETICS, posed to the Quarians, the Council enacted laws, or rather started enforcing laws about AIs. They terminated all AIs within Council space.

Quarian space was within Council Space. The Quarians held a seat on the Council. They had a problem and the Council didn't want to deal with it. What did they do to Quarian Space? They just rezoned it and told the
Quarians not to aggravate the Geth. The Council could have gone in with
the Turians and cleaned up the entire problem. How? By setting off a butt load of EMPs around Rannoch that would have fried every single geth platform. But they did nothing as usual.

What's the point in letting the old council die when they're replaced by an equally unqualified bunch of idiots.

And Silver, you don't have to defend me. I don't care what Remy thinks of me. I'm just glad this is a game and not real life and we're in a situation where the survival of my race is depending upon his decision making because he doesn't have a frelling clue.

[remydat]

Trying to kill the Geth = Billions dead.
Trying to talk to the Geth = Unknown but Shep talking to them lead to peace and cooperation with the Quarians.

Hmmm, wonder who doesn't have a clue.

Modifié par remydat, 18 mai 2013 - 02:21 .

[KingZayd]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

ME1 Geth attack Citadel/Council, = Council does nothing , Alliance is on clean up duty.

Exactly, they were on clean up duty. Any pockets of the Geth left within Council Space were dealt with.

But I see your point, the Geth by now should have been extinct... that would have been a cool mission in ME2, imagine Rannoch but larger in scale, minus the bloody Reaper Code.

This BOLD is the whole thing. The Council is full of a bunch of idiots. Earth is on clean up duty after the attack on the Citadel. After the Morning War, seeing how big of a threat the Geth, SYNTHETICS, posed to the Quarians, the Council enacted laws, or rather started enforcing laws about AIs. They terminated all AIs within Council space.

Quarian space was within Council Space. The Quarians held a seat on the Council. They had a problem and the Council didn't want to deal with it. What did they do to Quarian Space? They just rezoned it and told the
Quarians not to aggravate the Geth. The Council could have gone in with
the Turians and cleaned up the entire problem. How? By setting off a butt load of EMPs around Rannoch that would have fried every single geth platform. But they did nothing as usual.

What's the point in letting the old council die when they're replaced by an equally unqualified bunch of idiots.

And Silver, you don't have to defend me. I don't care what Remy thinks of me. I'm just glad this is a game and not real life and we're in a situation where the survival of my race is depending upon his decision making because he doesn't have a frelling clue.

They didn't hold a seat on the council. They had an embassy.

A treaty was made forbidding any attacks on the Geth so that they wouldn't be provoked. I guess that means the Quarians violated that treaty?


Also, good luck sending EMPs around Rannoch and getting out of there before your own ships are affected and your people die too. Without getting shot down first.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 mai 2013 - 02:22 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KingZayd wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

ME1 Geth attack Citadel/Council, = Council does nothing , Alliance is on clean up duty.

Exactly, they were on clean up duty. Any pockets of the Geth left within Council Space were dealt with.

But I see your point, the Geth by now should have been extinct... that would have been a cool mission in ME2, imagine Rannoch but larger in scale, minus the bloody Reaper Code.

This BOLD is the whole thing. The Council is full of a bunch of idiots. Earth is on clean up duty after the attack on the Citadel. After the Morning War, seeing how big of a threat the Geth, SYNTHETICS, posed to the Quarians, the Council enacted laws, or rather started enforcing laws about AIs. They terminated all AIs within Council space.

Quarian space was within Council Space. The Quarians held a seat on the Council. They had a problem and the Council didn't want to deal with it. What did they do to Quarian Space? They just rezoned it and told the
Quarians not to aggravate the Geth. The Council could have gone in with
the Turians and cleaned up the entire problem. How? By setting off a butt load of EMPs around Rannoch that would have fried every single geth platform. But they did nothing as usual.

What's the point in letting the old council die when they're replaced by an equally unqualified bunch of idiots.

And Silver, you don't have to defend me. I don't care what Remy thinks of me. I'm just glad this is a game and not real life and we're in a situation where the survival of my race is depending upon his decision making because he doesn't have a frelling clue.

They didn't hold a seat on the council. They had an embassy.

A treaty was made forbidding any attacks on the Geth so that they wouldn't be provoked. I guess that means the Quarians violated that treaty?


Also, good luck sending EMPs around Rannoch and getting out of there before your own ships are affected and your people die too. Without getting shot down first.

I was talking about in 1850 - 1852 during the Morning War, not now FFS, read my post. But the Council didn't want to do anything. They never come to the assistance of their client states anyway. We know that.

And so what if the Quarians violated the treaty. It was perfect timing. The council was occupied and couldn't do anything. They had the upper hand over the geth and if that reaper hadn't shown up it was game over. We all know it.

The Quarians were without a home world, and even without the reapers they were going to die in space in about 80 years anyway so they had to go all in at some point because the council wasn't going to give them a world. They tried, and were told no. So screw the treaty. Desperate times will lead to desperate measures.

You know what. I really don't care. You guys snuggle up with your shiny robots. You can hide behind them and the council, and the legalities. Sometimes what is legal isn't always right. This time the organics are taking charge.

[KingZayd]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

ME1 Geth attack Citadel/Council, = Council does nothing , Alliance is on clean up duty.

Exactly, they were on clean up duty. Any pockets of the Geth left within Council Space were dealt with.

But I see your point, the Geth by now should have been extinct... that would have been a cool mission in ME2, imagine Rannoch but larger in scale, minus the bloody Reaper Code.

This BOLD is the whole thing. The Council is full of a bunch of idiots. Earth is on clean up duty after the attack on the Citadel. After the Morning War, seeing how big of a threat the Geth, SYNTHETICS, posed to the Quarians, the Council enacted laws, or rather started enforcing laws about AIs. They terminated all AIs within Council space.

Quarian space was within Council Space. The Quarians held a seat on the Council. They had a problem and the Council didn't want to deal with it. What did they do to Quarian Space? They just rezoned it and told the
Quarians not to aggravate the Geth. The Council could have gone in with
the Turians and cleaned up the entire problem. How? By setting off a butt load of EMPs around Rannoch that would have fried every single geth platform. But they did nothing as usual.

What's the point in letting the old council die when they're replaced by an equally unqualified bunch of idiots.

And Silver, you don't have to defend me. I don't care what Remy thinks of me. I'm just glad this is a game and not real life and we're in a situation where the survival of my race is depending upon his decision making because he doesn't have a frelling clue.

They didn't hold a seat on the council. They had an embassy.

A treaty was made forbidding any attacks on the Geth so that they wouldn't be provoked. I guess that means the Quarians violated that treaty?


Also, good luck sending EMPs around Rannoch and getting out of there before your own ships are affected and your people die too. Without getting shot down first.

I was talking about in 1850 - 1852 during the Morning War, not now FFS, read my post. But the Council didn't want to do anything. They never come to the assistance of their client states anyway. We know that.

And so what if the Quarians violated the treaty. It was perfect timing. The council was occupied and couldn't do anything. They had the upper hand over the geth and if that reaper hadn't shown up it was game over. We all know it.

The Quarians were without a home world, and even without the reapers they were going to die in space in about 80 years anyway so they had to go all in at some point because the council wasn't going to give them a world. They tried, and were told no. So screw the treaty. Desperate times will lead to desperate measures.

You know what. I really don't care. You guys snuggle up with your shiny robots. You can hide behind them and the council, and the legalities. Sometimes what is legal isn't always right. This time the organics are taking charge.

They never had a council seat. They had an embassy before the Morning War.

"So what if they violate a treaty?" That's not a good attitude at all. Why didn't they ever try negotiating? Tali was able to contact Legion, so clearly if they wanted to set up a meet they could have.

The council is self-interested, and unfair. That doesn't mean the Quarians are justified in their hostilities against the Geth.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Okay, they had an embassy. Big deal. An error. Minor because the response would have been the same.

Billions of Quarians butchered, just slaughtered by the geth, and driven from their home world and into exile for 300 years by the Geth is not justification for feeling hostile? Negotiate? The Geth shoot at anything that comes into their system. Ask the council. Legion is one platform and they cut off communication. Don't say "clearly if they wanted to set up a meet they could have." It's clear as mud.

You have no idea how hot these suits get. And unless you metagame you don't know what is going to happen. We take back our home world.

[KingZayd]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Okay, they had an embassy. Big deal. An error. Minor because the response would have been the same.

Billions of Quarians butchered, just slaughtered by the geth, and driven from their home world and into exile for 300 years by the Geth is not justification for feeling hostile? Negotiate? The Geth shoot at anything that comes into their system. Ask the council. Legion is one platform and they cut off communication. Don't say "clearly if they wanted to set up a meet they could have." It's clear as mud.

You have no idea how hot these suits get. And unless you metagame you don't know what is going to happen. We take back our home world.

As opposed to the billions of Geth that would have been slaughtered by the Quarians? The Geth defended themselves.

Yes, negotiate. Legion is one platform that is conneted to all the other Geth. It is not difficult for Tali to contact the other Quarian leaders. Tali and Legion did communicate a little after ME2. It was definitely possible. It's their system, and they're allowed to defend it. If you wanted to talk peacefully you can ask permission for entry using wireless communication.

"Oh no, these suits are hot. Clearly justification for a war!"

[David7204]

The quarians are not idiots, and the Council are not idiots.

[remydat]

It is clear as mud the Quarians voted against formal peace talks at a time they knew negotiation was possible because Tali makes clear she and Legion were talking and she thought it could lead to peace but that her and Koris were outvoted by the rest of the Admirals.  See around 9:40 of the vid.

It is clear as mud she was talking to Legion after the decision for war was made because she says she could have warned him but didn't.  See 10:05 of the vid.
 
It is clear as mud she communicated with him after the attack because the dialogue wheel option AND SINCE THE ATTACK results in Tali saying their last communication Legion said the Geth could not reach consensus and speculates that Legion may have been fighting the Reaper takeover or didn't want to give ans enemy intel.  Tali would not say those things unless this was  SINCE THE ATTACK because from her perspective she believes the Reaper takevoer occured SINCE THE ATTACK and Legion would not consider her an an enemy until AFTER THE ATTACK.  See 9:40 of the vid.

So sorry, the Quarians knew talks were possible according to Tali's own words. They just decided putting guns on their kids homes and taking them on a field trip called war was preferrable than having a conversation.

Repeating the same false statements over and over doesn't make it true.  Game don't lie guys. 

Modifié par remydat, 18 mai 2013 - 03:59 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

It is clear as mud the Quarians voted against formal peace talks at a time they knew negotiation was possible because Tali makes clear she and Legion were talking and she thought it could lead to peace but that her and Koris were outvoted by the rest of the Admirals.  See around 9:40 of the vid.

It is clear as mud she was talking to Legion after the decision for war was made because she says she could have warned him but didn't.  See 10:05 of the vid.
 
It is clear as mud she communicated with him after the attack because the dialogue wheel option AND SINCE THE ATTACK results in Tali saying their last communication Legion said the Geth could not reach consensus and speculates that Legion may have been fighting the Reaper takeover or didn't want to give ans enemy intel.  Tali would not say those things unless this was  SINCE THE ATTACK because from her perspective she believes the Reaper takevoer occured SINCE THE ATTACK and Legion would not consider her an an enemy until AFTER THE ATTACK.  See 9:40 of the vid.

So sorry, the Quarians knew talks were possible according to Tali's own words. They just decided putting guns on their kids homes and taking them on a field trip called war was preferrable than having a conversation.

Repeating the same false statements over and over doesn't make it true.  Game don't lie guys. 

No. It's quite obvious the admirals voted for war. Duh?!

But Tali. Tali thought about warning the Geth that they were going to attack? Is she frelling nuts? It's a damned good thing she didn't. Tali would be a traitor. She's a worse suit-wetter than Koris. And communicating with the enemy without discussing it with the rest of the Admiralty AFTER the attack? That's treason. OMG! What the hell was she doing? Tali would have been executed.

No wonder she wanted to talk about this in private with Shepard. She's afraid she'll be found out and she has to tell someone.

Let alone not informing the Admiralty she was in peace discussions with one of the Geth before the attack. That was bad enough especially if something could have been worked out. She withheld information. She's an Admiral (in name only), but still. But no, she's too afraid.

But this indicates the reaper was already there and made the offer for the Geth to join them prior to the attack.

Bottom line here is I am pro-Quarian. You are pro-Geth. You are never going to convince me that I am wrong. All of your "the treaty this" "the treaty that". Negotiate. Peace. Isn't going to convince me because you're metagaming. We're taking our home world back, and that's the end of it.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

remydat wrote...

It is clear as mud the Quarians voted against formal peace talks at a time they knew negotiation was possible because Tali makes clear she and Legion were talking and she thought it could lead to peace but that her and Koris were outvoted by the rest of the Admirals.  See around 9:40 of the vid.

It is clear as mud she was talking to Legion after the decision for war was made because she says she could have warned him but didn't.  See 10:05 of the vid.
 
It is clear as mud she communicated with him after the attack because the dialogue wheel option AND SINCE THE ATTACK results in Tali saying their last communication Legion said the Geth could not reach consensus and speculates that Legion may have been fighting the Reaper takeover or didn't want to give ans enemy intel.  Tali would not say those things unless this was  SINCE THE ATTACK because from her perspective she believes the Reaper takevoer occured SINCE THE ATTACK and Legion would not consider her an an enemy until AFTER THE ATTACK.  See 9:40 of the vid.

So sorry, the Quarians knew talks were possible according to Tali's own words. They just decided putting guns on their kids homes and taking them on a field trip called war was preferrable than having a conversation.

Repeating the same false statements over and over doesn't make it true.  Game don't lie guys. 

No. It's quite obvious the admirals voted for war. Duh?!

But Tali. Tali thought about warning the Geth that they were going to attack? Is she frelling nuts? It's a damned good thing she didn't. Tali would be a traitor. She's a worse suit-wetter than Koris. And communicating with the enemy without discussing it with the rest of the Admiralty AFTER the attack? That's treason. OMG! What the hell was she doing? Tali would have been executed.

No wonder she wanted to talk about this in private with Shepard. She's afraid she'll be found out and she has to tell someone.

Let alone not informing the Admiralty she was in peace discussions with one of the Geth before the attack. That was bad enough especially if something could have been worked out. She withheld information. She's an Admiral (in name only), but still. But no, she's too afraid.

But this indicates the reaper was already there and made the offer for the Geth to join them prior to the attack.

Bottom line here is I am pro-Quarian. You are pro-Geth. You are never going to convince me that I am wrong. All of your "the treaty this" "the treaty that". Negotiate. Peace. Isn't going to convince me because you're metagaming. We're taking our home world back, and that's the end of it.

Plus, since Saren already broke the Treaty against provoking the geth in ME1, the entire treaty is completely and utterly redundant, since the geth have already been provoked by Saren, and are now listed as an "At War" faction on the Alliance and Council's target lists. If anything, the quarians would have likely had their SUPPORT against the geth had they known.

[silverexile17s]

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


First off, an off-topic tangent....
Looking the same automatically equates to "having the same capabilaties in zero-gravity, vacaum, toxic environments, and radiation"? Surre. THAT'S not overgeneralization and antropmorphism at ALL...<_<
Seriously, dude, when did two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT species "looking the same" EVER mean they had the same capabilaties. Asari look like blue humans, but THEY sure don't have the same capabilaties, since, unlike humans, ALL asari can kill just by thinking about it with biotics, and can mate and have kids with anyone.
The geth are walking powerloaders programmed to be able to take up arms and kill at the drop of a dime. You SERIOUSLY are going to try and say that's not worth being afraid over? And the baseline geth model of today is the same as the original version. The "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality rings true for the geth in that regard. That explains why the geth would not have changed their apperance in 300 years.

...Getting off topic completely, aren't I? Back to the point of source material, the geth haven't changed at all from their past forms, since their presant apperance still matches past historical records. So the geth's apperance in that IS accurate.

Haven't you heard of context?

You said the Geth in that log looked identical to the way they look now. The Quarians look the same in that log as they do now despite the fact that we know they didn't know those suits before the war.

I say this because the Codex on Geth Hoppers in ME1 says that the baseline geth soldier is a match for the original historical record of the Morning War geth. It says that most of the newer models of geth (Juggernaught, Hopper, Armature) were not in the hsitorical records. Meaning that the standard model (Trooper, Sniper, Shock Trooper, Rocket Trooper) DO match their ancestroal selves.
THAT is proof - the baseline geth chassis is the SAME as the one from the Morning War.

No, it doesn't. It says there's no record of the Hopper model, but nothing about the baseline geth soldier being "a match for the original historical record of the Morning War Geth"

So where's the proof again?

AGAIN, dead wrong. The entry says that there is no match to the Hoppers in any historical records. Ergo, the current models ARE in the records. They state that the Hoppers are the ONLY models that don't seem to have diffinitive MW counterparts. Alongside the Armature.

So, THERE is my proof - AGAIN.

AGAIN, dead wrong. Just because the current standard Geth models don't look completely different to the old ones (it's a fairly basic design. Arms, legs, flashlight head etc), doesn't mean they haven't changed. The newer ones would have been made more combat ready than the old ones.

A prothean who had encountered humans 50000 years ago would probably have recognised us. Doesn't mean we haven't changed.


so, AGAIN, where is the proof?

AGAIN, YOU are Dead Wrong.
The geth were BUILT for labor and war - they were DESIGNED to be stronger then organics, more durible then organics, and able to arm up faster then organics. Their CODEX states in the fist paragraph that ALL of them were made as weapons. Legion says that they ALL were built with the EXACT SAME SPECIFICATIONS as the last. And AGAIN, with the geth, their baseline soldier apperance is NOT any different then the original chassis of the Morning War geth. Ashley Williams, who's only refrence to a geth, reconized them pretty damn fast, despite never seeing one outside of the holos she saw in her grade school. Based on how she reconiozed them from 300-year old holos, it doesn't seem like they changed that much. Also, among the many geth types, the ONLY one that doesn't match ANY histoirical record is the Geth Hopper. That means that most geth DO match histoirical records of past geth types. It really doesn;t seem like upgrading physical capabilities is something the geth devoter resoruces to, since they DON' T PLACE VALUE on physical bodies all that much. Since they don't have a lot of attachment to physical bodies, the term "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems to ring true for the geth. The ONLY time they ever seemed to devote more resources to platform development was when they learned the Reapers were coming. Before that, the difference was neglegilable.

So, AGAIN, THAT is my proof.
AGAIN.