@OP
Simple answer: You're missing that the Geth moved almost all orthodox programs to the superstructure. Legion stated this. When the Quarians did an unprovoked bombing run on the superstructure, most orthodox programs were destroyed, their numbers were greatly depleted. Legion also tells you this. Finally, Legion tells you that before the Reaper code it takes over a 1,000 programs working in tandem to make an entity like him, after the code it takes one program.
Am I the only one who feels Legion betrayed his ME2 characterization?
Débuté par
PinkysPain
, mai 09 2013 01:56
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#52
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 08:21
PinkysPain
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One program trojan horse'd with Reaper tech. When reaper tech has been shown time and time again to corrupt everything it touches. While shutting off forever the ability for those programs to find their own path to a future, as ME2 Legion wanted.
Modifié par PinkysPain, 09 mai 2013 - 08:22 .
#53
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 08:31
FlyingSquirrel
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PinkysPain wrote...
One program trojan horse'd with Reaper tech. When reaper tech has been shown time and time again to corrupt everything it touches. While shutting off forever the ability for those programs to find their own path to a future, as ME2 Legion wanted.
EDI has Reaper tech incorporated into her programming and was never corrupted by it.
#54
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 08:43
frostajulie
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No OP you are not the only one who feels that way, the tragedy is that Bioware themselves didn't seem to understand their own characters they wrote. At times the slipshod manner the story is tied together in places reminds of ooc fanfictions written by 6th grade girls who don't truly understand the characters as they were originally intended.
#55
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 08:56
Kataphrut94
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Admiral Gerrel implies that the quarians had already dealt with the geth outside the home system and Rannoch would have been the decider. I don't get the problem people have with the Reaper code - after the Destroyer was killed, it wasn't dangerous, ultimately saved the geth and they accepted it of their own free will.
Yea, it goes against their principles, but the geth are emotionless machines - in a choice between their survival and their principles, they'll pick living every time. Why would they do anything else?
Yea, it goes against their principles, but the geth are emotionless machines - in a choice between their survival and their principles, they'll pick living every time. Why would they do anything else?
#56
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 09:05
Cainhurst Crow
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What do principles matter to a purely logic based life form? That assumes that you can somehow logically come to the conclusion that honor is a valuable aspect to uphold. Logic would dictate to use the path of most ease in advancing forward that has the least amount of sacrifice. They didn't side with the reapers in ME2 because the variables came out that following the reapers path vs finding their own path were not sufficient to side with the reapers. In ME3 the variables are different, the quarians have found a way to render their consensus nonfunctional, rendering them completely helpless, and they show no sign of stopping until they are wiped out. When the variables were side with the reapers, or be destroyed, they choose to preserve themselves over deletion.
With legion, they have discovered a new variable, a means to use the reapers upgrades without being forced onto their path fully. Given the options of staying bound to the reapers path, finding a combination of their own path and the reapers path, or staying with their own path and being totally annihilated, they choose preservation with the most amount of freedom, the best logical alternative.
What makes no sense is the insistence that the geth would not pick the upgrade, since the alternative is to be wiped out to the point that their consensus would no longer allow them to stay sentient.
With legion, they have discovered a new variable, a means to use the reapers upgrades without being forced onto their path fully. Given the options of staying bound to the reapers path, finding a combination of their own path and the reapers path, or staying with their own path and being totally annihilated, they choose preservation with the most amount of freedom, the best logical alternative.
What makes no sense is the insistence that the geth would not pick the upgrade, since the alternative is to be wiped out to the point that their consensus would no longer allow them to stay sentient.
#57
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 10:17
PsyrenY
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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
"Is surrender not prefereable to extinction?" -- Saren Arterius
Well, so they choose to be slaves to the reapers. You do realize that Xen (aka Space Morrigan) also was on the Admiralty, and did not want to totally annihilate the Geth. She wanted to bring the Geth down to a number where the Quarians could bring them back under their control and integrate them into their fleet to help fight the reapers. So the Geth were not in danger of extinction. They actually could have surrendered to the Quarians instead.
No, no, no. Hell no. Xen wanted to re-enslave them, every bit as much as the Reaper did, and kill them if that was impossible. She says as much in ME2 - it would have been trading one bondage for another. And at least the Reapers didn't blow up their Dyson Sphere without warning.
Worse, her form of control wouldn't have even given them anything. The Reapers are horrible, and dangerous, but their code upgrades enabled the Geth to achieve true sapience. Every major organic species has profited from Reaper tech (Thanix, EDI etc.) - to lambast the Geth for wanting to do the same is exceedingly hypocritical, whatever high moral stance they tried to have in ME2.
#58
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 10:47
thehomeworld
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Yeah pretty much OP.
I also never got the whole " We must hold onto Rannoch!" the geth seem to have. Its obvious the Quarians want it back and will melt them into scrap to get it yet he also says they want to be left alone and not have the Quarians or anyone want to kill them yet they don't leave Rannoch and let the Quarians have it while they go into deep space where they would get all that they desire a place to be left alone and no one would fallow them.
They have yet to explain other then gardening and upkeeping and low brain power why the geth think they need to stay they aren't getting any minerals on the world that can only be mined from it, they don't need the air, they don't need the buildings, they're wasting resources on up keep due to guilt they want to build their own world yet waste man power and resources up keeping the ruins that could've gone towards their own space. They say oh we're keeping it pretty for them yet at the same time barring them from returning. The geth are full of contradictions they seem to want it all and none of it at the same time.
If the geth truly wanted to be alone to build their own world they could've left Rannoch gone into deep space and find some nice asteroids to mine and set up shop they don't want that. 300 years of holding onto a world you don't need is spiteful to say the least.
It also goes with the code Legion says we want to depend on ourselves without the reapers then in 3 he decides nope I want to depend on the reapers again wanting it both ways.
The only way I can say its in character for him is that he brainwashed the heretics to his cause last time around so doing another brainwashing to give them free will would be in his books yet is it really free will? I think its not you can't give someone will, want, or sapience via a code it lives outside a code so to me the geth never got it anyway they're simply practicing the monkey see monkey do route combined with the I say therefore I am and the organics are suppose to just roll with it. The geth after 2 became a stupid race to add to the lore the VR people would've worked better the aren't oozing with contrivance.
I also never got the whole " We must hold onto Rannoch!" the geth seem to have. Its obvious the Quarians want it back and will melt them into scrap to get it yet he also says they want to be left alone and not have the Quarians or anyone want to kill them yet they don't leave Rannoch and let the Quarians have it while they go into deep space where they would get all that they desire a place to be left alone and no one would fallow them.
They have yet to explain other then gardening and upkeeping and low brain power why the geth think they need to stay they aren't getting any minerals on the world that can only be mined from it, they don't need the air, they don't need the buildings, they're wasting resources on up keep due to guilt they want to build their own world yet waste man power and resources up keeping the ruins that could've gone towards their own space. They say oh we're keeping it pretty for them yet at the same time barring them from returning. The geth are full of contradictions they seem to want it all and none of it at the same time.
If the geth truly wanted to be alone to build their own world they could've left Rannoch gone into deep space and find some nice asteroids to mine and set up shop they don't want that. 300 years of holding onto a world you don't need is spiteful to say the least.
It also goes with the code Legion says we want to depend on ourselves without the reapers then in 3 he decides nope I want to depend on the reapers again wanting it both ways.
The only way I can say its in character for him is that he brainwashed the heretics to his cause last time around so doing another brainwashing to give them free will would be in his books yet is it really free will? I think its not you can't give someone will, want, or sapience via a code it lives outside a code so to me the geth never got it anyway they're simply practicing the monkey see monkey do route combined with the I say therefore I am and the organics are suppose to just roll with it. The geth after 2 became a stupid race to add to the lore the VR people would've worked better the aren't oozing with contrivance.
Modifié par thehomeworld, 09 mai 2013 - 10:48 .
#60
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 10:53
thehomeworld
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FlyingSquirrel wrote...
PinkysPain wrote...
One program trojan horse'd with Reaper tech. When reaper tech has been shown time and time again to corrupt everything it touches. While shutting off forever the ability for those programs to find their own path to a future, as ME2 Legion wanted.
EDI has Reaper tech incorporated into her programming and was never corrupted by it.
BW never botherd to fallow the route with her I could make the case that she being made of reaper tech was part of TIMs plan to over throw the reapers in a way that makes TIM on top and Humanity the victors of the war but BW didn't do this they rewrote it make him indoctrinated to fit the new version. Its not that she couldn't corrupt the crew its that BW deemed she shouldn't becasue the fans would riot.
#61
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 10:56
The Night Mammoth
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thehomeworld wrote...
If the geth truly wanted to be alone to build their own world they could've left Rannoch gone into deep space and find some nice asteroids to mine and set up shop they don't want that. 300 years of holding onto a world you don't need is spiteful to say the least.
Tough. The quarians started a war, and lost a war, and the geth claimed the spoils. They aren't going to just Rannoch to their enemy. Staying isolated isn't the only thing governing their existence. It's important to them but not important enough pointlessly up-sticks and move all their infrastucture.
#63
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 11:34
N7Gold
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OP, you misunderstood Legion a bit. The Reapers posed as gods to the heretics and had them follow their orders without question with the promise that they will help the heretic Geth evolve to the pinnacle of their evolution. Legion and the true Geth want to evolve on their own terms, without being slaves of the Reapers. Think about it. If life becomes totally dependent on a higher force to support them, how will they take care of themselves when their so-called "gods" abandon them? The Reapers only see the Geth as tools, nothing more. Legion aims to help the Geth evolve without submitting to the will of the Reapers. Using the Reaper code to help them become true AIs is not submission.
Modifié par N7Gold, 09 mai 2013 - 11:37 .
#64
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 11:41
spirosz
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N7Gold wrote...
Legion aims to help the Geth evolve without submitting to the will of the Reapers. Using the Reaper code to help them become true AIs is not submission.
Didn't the Geth submit though...
#65
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 01:08
Shaleist
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I'm not exaggerating when I say I've come to the conclusion that the Legion we know from ME2 was destroyed and replaced by a planted Legion impostor *Or alternatively a Legion vi*. He has nothing in common with his ME2 persona. The only bigger flip IMO was TIM.PinkysPain wrote...
I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.
He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.
He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.
#66
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 02:10
remydat
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Mordin opposed Maelon's data to the point he wanted to kill him in ME2. In ME3, he admits that despite opposing that data, not using it to help Eve and the Krogan (she dies without it) would be even more irresponsible.
Legion opposes the Reapers aid in ME2. In ME3, he is forced to use it and after being forced sees the value in it with respect to helping them become fully evolved and also it is the only thing that convinces the Quarians from killing them and choosing peace.
So was Mordin wrong? If not, why is Legion? Because he is synthetic and not allowed to arrive at the same conclusion that Mordin did?
Legion opposes the Reapers aid in ME2. In ME3, he is forced to use it and after being forced sees the value in it with respect to helping them become fully evolved and also it is the only thing that convinces the Quarians from killing them and choosing peace.
So was Mordin wrong? If not, why is Legion? Because he is synthetic and not allowed to arrive at the same conclusion that Mordin did?
Modifié par remydat, 10 mai 2013 - 02:14 .
#67
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 02:18
Xilizhra
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The reason is simple: without advancing, the geth were doomed. Their interdependence was acknowledged as a weakness by Legion in ME2, and in ME3, the point is proven when the quarians destroy their Dyson sphere, permanently killing far too many geth. A new form of life had to be found.
#68
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 02:43
What a Succulent Ass
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The problem with that argument is that it ignores the fact that the events of the plot were crafted with purpose. The writers chose to take the geth in the opposite direction for no other reasons than to provide flimsy justification for the Catalyst's rambling and to introduce a very tired narrative about individuality and what it means to be "alive." It was worn at best, and some hegemonic bullish*t at worst.
Even if they were adamant about having the dyson sphere destroyed, they could have avoided the reaper code contrivance with minimal changes to the plot.
But they didn't.
There's no point in introducing a theme if you only plan to destroy it.
Even if they were adamant about having the dyson sphere destroyed, they could have avoided the reaper code contrivance with minimal changes to the plot.
But they didn't.
There's no point in introducing a theme if you only plan to destroy it.
#69
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 02:51
spirosz
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Random Jerkface wrote...
The problem with that argument is that it ignores the fact that the events of the plot were crafted with purpose. The writers chose to take the geth in the opposite direction for no other reasons than to provide flimsy justification for the Catalyst's rambling and to introduce a very tired narrative about individuality and what it means to be "alive." It was worn at best, and some hegemonic bullish*t at worst.
Even if they were adamant about having the dyson sphere destroyed, they could have avoided the reaper code contrivance with minimal changes to the plot.
But they didn't.
There's no point in introducing a theme if you only plan to destroy it.
You know what, I think a lot of the Geth's portrayal in ME3, has to do with that moment where Legion sacrifices himself - that drama for the sake of drama aspect, that Bioware wanted to express, you know their wording... emotional engaging.
#70
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 02:58
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
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spirosz wrote...
No.
#71
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 03:25
Vortex13
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Morocco Mole wrote...
No.
Also wasn't fond of the geth whitewashing either
Same here.
I really enjoyed the animosity between the Geth and Quarians in ME 2, especially Tali and Legion; with them being the spokesmen of their respective races,I could sympathize with both sides. But ME 3 is like a propaganda film; entirely one sided and very selective in recounting details of the Morning War and the Quarians in general.
#72
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 03:37
DarkNova50
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Yeah, for all of Legion's lofty talk of finding their own future and co-existence with organic races, the Geth were sure quick to side with the intergalactic killing machines when the going got rough. Did they think the Reapers would let the Geth go and do their own thing after they'd finished with the Quarians?
It would be the equivalent of the Batarians signing on with the Reapers because they felt hard done by the Alliance. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, it's everyone's enemy.
Yet another glaring plot hole to be filled with some feathery speculation and what have you.
It would be the equivalent of the Batarians signing on with the Reapers because they felt hard done by the Alliance. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, it's everyone's enemy.
Yet another glaring plot hole to be filled with some feathery speculation and what have you.
#73
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 03:52
remydat
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DarkNova50 wrote...
Yeah, for all of Legion's lofty talk of finding their own future and co-existence with organic races, the Geth were sure quick to side with the intergalactic killing machines when the going got rough. Did they think the Reapers would let the Geth go and do their own thing after they'd finished with the Quarians?
It would be the equivalent of the Batarians signing on with the Reapers because they felt hard done by the Alliance. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, it's everyone's enemy.
Yet another glaring plot hole to be filled with some feathery speculation and what have you.
Right, pretty sure WWII would have gone quite differently if the Capitalists and Communists had believed this.
#74
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 04:01
DarkNova50
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remydat wrote...
DarkNova50 wrote...
Yeah, for all of Legion's lofty talk of finding their own future and co-existence with organic races, the Geth were sure quick to side with the intergalactic killing machines when the going got rough. Did they think the Reapers would let the Geth go and do their own thing after they'd finished with the Quarians?
It would be the equivalent of the Batarians signing on with the Reapers because they felt hard done by the Alliance. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, it's everyone's enemy.
Yet another glaring plot hole to be filled with some feathery speculation and what have you.
Right, pretty sure WWII would have gone quite differently if the Capitalists and Communists had believed this.
I was speaking to that situation specifically, not trying to refute the saying altogether. Besides, while the Allies and the Soviets didn't exactly see eye to eye, they both knew the other side wasn't planning a global genocide.
#75
Posté 10 mai 2013 - 06:02
Clayless
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DarkNova50 wrote...
Yeah, for all of Legion's lofty talk of finding their own future and co-existence with organic races, the Geth were sure quick to side with the intergalactic killing machines when the going got rough. Did they think the Reapers would let the Geth go and do their own thing after they'd finished with the Quarians?
It would be the equivalent of the Batarians signing on with the Reapers because they felt hard done by the Alliance. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, it's everyone's enemy.
Yet another glaring plot hole to be filled with some feathery speculation and what have you.
That's not a plot hole.
