826 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG.
According to LEGION HIMSELF, the geth's actions are condemable. I am judging the geth on THEIR OWN STANDARDS, as provided by Legion, who himself admits that the geth have gone too far and that he does not support their actions. The geth say that using technology of others is not achieving their own path, and that one should stay the course no matter what - which is completely discarded for the Reaper Upgrades. They state that they believe in mutual cooperation, yet never gave any organic that visited the Perseus Veil a chance tp speak before shooting them dead. I HAVE been judging the geth on their own stated merits and beliefs. YOU haven't.

"How'd we get here? The geth are better then this."
"...No. Based on emperical evidence, they are not."
"(sigh).... yeah."
- Commander Shepard & Legion, Rannoch.

P.S. - Fancy way of saying you have no retort.  And like @Julia said, since the geth never really had fully defined emotional reactions pre-Rannoch War,  you can't equate them to our standards. They are a completely alien form of life, hence why you can't judge them by our rules.

And that converstion is about Shepard using organic morals as a base for "better".

Have the Geth shown that they'll do absolutely anything and everythnig in their power to survive regardless of the cost?

Absolutely. They were made that way.

Modifié par Morlath, 21 mai 2013 - 08:26 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

@remy


When the Geth willingly joined the Reapers they became puppets/mind less killing machines for the Reapers, they were no longer Geth, they were little more than husks. They were willing to kill every other race to buy themselves more time.


The Geth couldn't stand against the Quarians, if the Reapers hadn't intervened, the Geth would be no more. Reapers are far better at hacking, they have better ships and more. What chance do the Geth stand against the against the Reapers. The Geth have no allies because of everything they've done, no other race was going to help, they were either unwilling and unable or both. ----->Legion does not control the Geth<-----.


You keep mention the treaty, that we supposedly keep ignoring and yet you blatantly ignore things you can't defend/justify.


After the MW, the Quarians exiled from council and were abandoned, and left to die off. They are hated by the rest of the galaxy for crimes they did not commit. Even though their ships are falling apart, kicked out of certain star systems, denied a home world which they desperately need, no matter what has been done them by the council they still abide/follow council law. The only thing that has gotten them is another generation or two aboard their ships and the hatred from the rest of the galaxy.

The Quarians admirallty will undoubtedly face criminal charges. Are the Geth facing any criminal charges, oh right you want to excuse and reward their actions.

The Quarians wern't exiled from the council because they were never a council species. We arn't even told they had an embassy Before the MW, they might have had that though. Then again they don't strike me as the social outgoing kind of people who embrace Contact with others.
It's possible their biology had something to do with it since they had negative biological reactions to direct Contact with other species.

Um..... Wrong.
The quarians were a CITADEL species. Not a Council Race, but a Member of the Citadel Conventions, with an offical Embasy like the volus, elcor, hanar, and humans. And the quarian's Codex spicifically lists them as having an Embasy that was closed by the Council, right before spicifically saying they exiled the quarians from the Citadel Conventions.
The  Codex spicifically states they were a Citadel race up until the geth rebellion. So, what the hell are you talking about?

They wern't on the council though, which is what I was saying. The council is trying to enforce their laws and treaties with non citadel species aswell. The onyl thign that stops them in some cases is their aversion to violence.

Um... he never SAID they were on the Council. Just that they were exiled from Council juristiction/space, which they were.
Also, I don't see the batarians adhering to their laws about WMDs, which are swarming on the batarian homeworld, Kar'shan.
And regardless, the point is that the pact made with the quarians to avoid provoking the geth was broken by someone else- Saren. Since the geth have been provoked, in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy (Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Therum, Battle of the Citadel, ect), that particular treaty is null and void. It's a worthless formalaty that's already impossible to even consider upholding since both the Alliance and Council declared war on the geth, and never recinded that order until after the Rannoch War was over.

The order only extended to Geth outside the Veil. geth that were a threat to the galaxy.
The Alliance cleaned out a few pockets of heretics (a terrorist faction, similar to saren or cerberus who Went rogue) outside the Veil. The true Geth had a military force almost equal to that of the Turian hirachy. They were never targeted by the order.

Distrust and fear of Geth was at an all time high though, just like the fear of middleeastern looking people in the US after 9/11.

Modifié par shodiswe, 21 mai 2013 - 08:32 .

[shodiswe]

If the True Geth had been aiding Saren and Sovereign then they would have swatted away the Alliance fleet like an anoying little mosquito. As far as I know the Alliance hadn't got the Quarian flashbang, neither did anyone else at that time.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

I do agree on one Point @Julia, there have been several issues with the Writing and the mission content in ME3.

Our conclusions and thoughts on it might differ somewhat though.

Also, Silver, fictional ideas/ideals are important, they form and shape our Culture, minds and future. If our fiction doesn't take account of history or what we can learn from it then we are taking huge risks with our future.
It's not disrespect to our dead to remember them and remember whats right and whats wrong.

This story depcts the starting Point and evolution such a conflict.

Everything about WW2 was a very complicated pattern that lead to a very dark Point in human history. At the end of WW2 there were signs that some people had learned the lession, or began to see it, not all though.
But as time goes on and people forget and the last people of the era dies people forget and the way the topic has been treated doesn't help.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this since I fully expect you to just lash out against me for no reason other than being a "Geth supporter" or whatever lable.

But AGAIN, if you think that, then you shoud respect them by NOT dragging those events and their sigifigance through the mud by trying to equate them to fictional events and/or characters. There is a REASON people disgunish the line between fact and fiction - RESPECT, for what is real and what is not. The Holocaust was real, so you respect it by letting old ghosts rest. They and their families have suffered enough. They don't need people digging them up to use as ammo in a debate on the ethics of a fight between walking toasters and their creators, and weather or not they matched their previous portrails. That's the OPPOSATE of respecting them or their memories.
Learn that before you dredge up long dead ghosts from horrible tragadies in an effort to justify a fictional mass slaughter between two distinctly seperate, fictional cultures. I mean, if you talked to people like this, you should have enough respect for their dead to not use them as ammo in a debate on fictional characters and events. Let's RESPECT the dead and not equate them to a fictional war, shal we?

Also, NO, it doesn't. At least not the way you are trying to paint it. The quarians aren't like Hitler's regiem. Nither are the geth. Both operate on majority consensis. Nither act without reaching a clear decision in a debate. Both act out of the desire for them and their fellows to see another day. Nither is after conquest, and nither believes in grudges or blood feuds. The quarians AREN'T like that and nither are the geth. That's just what everyone assumes of the two. The truth is that they mostly resent themselves. Tali says the quarians resent themselves for how their ancestors jumped the gun in thinking the geth would be hostile right off the bat. Legion says the geth feel remorse for all the death their rebellion caused. Nither regrets fighting for the sake of themselves or their fellows, and yet both feel guilty for the wounds they inflicted on each-other. The Reapers made the quarians desperate enough to try and reclaim Rannoch so that their people would have a chance at survival, which in turn made the geth desperate enough to willingly become slaves to the Reapers, for the same reasons as the geth. NOT ONCE does anything like the Aryan Perfection Hitler chased come up in either side's motivations for fighting.
BOTH had sins. The quarians made incorrect assumptuons. The geth took their retaliation too far. The quarians let their misery fester, and the geth never tried to fix their bad rep. The quarians assumed the geth didn't care about organics. The Geth assumed no lasting peace could come from organics. The quarians never thought peace would work with the geth. The geth killed anyone that came near them with no justification.
Both became publicly distained. I agree that nither is more "just" in supporting, but your misconceptions about their motivations are what irk me here. Nither had this "Aryan Perfection" complex you keep trying to push.

And AGAIN, you disrespecting those people by using their deaths and their families suffering as ammo for this isn't helping in the slightest. Just like the Reapers, you are part of the very problem you think you are solving, by using the topic so flippantly, and lesening the value and seriousness of the event. You are blatently disrespecting those dead and suffering by using their deaths like this.

This debate with the past vs fiction has nothing to do with quarian or geth - That's my POINT, since not only does it have no bearing on either side, but it has to do with you disrespecting a real-life tragady by using their suffering and death like a coin at a gambling table. It's  callous, it's  disrespectful, and above all else, it's straight-up insulting to ALL the people that died, and is no better then spitting on their graves.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG.
According to LEGION HIMSELF, the geth's actions are condemable. I am judging the geth on THEIR OWN STANDARDS, as provided by Legion, who himself admits that the geth have gone too far and that he does not support their actions. The geth say that using technology of others is not achieving their own path, and that one should stay the course no matter what - which is completely discarded for the Reaper Upgrades. They state that they believe in mutual cooperation, yet never gave any organic that visited the Perseus Veil a chance tp speak before shooting them dead. I HAVE been judging the geth on their own stated merits and beliefs. YOU haven't.

"How'd we get here? The geth are better then this."
"...No. Based on emperical evidence, they are not."
"(sigh).... yeah."
- Commander Shepard & Legion, Rannoch.

P.S. - Fancy way of saying you have no retort.  And like @Julia said, since the geth never really had fully defined emotional reactions pre-Rannoch War,  you can't equate them to our standards. They are a completely alien form of life, hence why you can't judge them by our rules.

And that converstion is about Shepard using organic morals as a base for "better".

Have the Geth shown that they'll do absolutely anything and everythnig in their power to survive regardless of the cost?

Absolutely. They were made that way.

Which Legion DISAGREES WITH. Remember that?  And go to the Heretic Station in ME2 sometime.
"The geth aren't like organics. Don't apply our morals to them."
Remember that line.

I think siding with the Reaper in the Rannoch War, and their earlier overzelous extermination of the quarian race in the Morning War answer that, don't you?

So then how exactally do you even BEGIN to think that assuming they can't be reasoned with using morals isn't a logically sound assumption. You act like the quarians were idiots for assuming a geth that has no defined moral or ethical OR emotional code is going to be reasoned with using moral argeuments? Wow doesn't even begin to cover that.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

@remy


When the Geth willingly joined the Reapers they became puppets/mind less killing machines for the Reapers, they were no longer Geth, they were little more than husks. They were willing to kill every other race to buy themselves more time.


The Geth couldn't stand against the Quarians, if the Reapers hadn't intervened, the Geth would be no more. Reapers are far better at hacking, they have better ships and more. What chance do the Geth stand against the against the Reapers. The Geth have no allies because of everything they've done, no other race was going to help, they were either unwilling and unable or both. ----->Legion does not control the Geth<-----.


You keep mention the treaty, that we supposedly keep ignoring and yet you blatantly ignore things you can't defend/justify.


After the MW, the Quarians exiled from council and were abandoned, and left to die off. They are hated by the rest of the galaxy for crimes they did not commit. Even though their ships are falling apart, kicked out of certain star systems, denied a home world which they desperately need, no matter what has been done them by the council they still abide/follow council law. The only thing that has gotten them is another generation or two aboard their ships and the hatred from the rest of the galaxy.

The Quarians admirallty will undoubtedly face criminal charges. Are the Geth facing any criminal charges, oh right you want to excuse and reward their actions.

The Quarians wern't exiled from the council because they were never a council species. We arn't even told they had an embassy Before the MW, they might have had that though. Then again they don't strike me as the social outgoing kind of people who embrace Contact with others.
It's possible their biology had something to do with it since they had negative biological reactions to direct Contact with other species.

Um..... Wrong.
The quarians were a CITADEL species. Not a Council Race, but a Member of the Citadel Conventions, with an offical Embasy like the volus, elcor, hanar, and humans. And the quarian's Codex spicifically lists them as having an Embasy that was closed by the Council, right before spicifically saying they exiled the quarians from the Citadel Conventions.
The  Codex spicifically states they were a Citadel race up until the geth rebellion. So, what the hell are you talking about?

They wern't on the council though, which is what I was saying. The council is trying to enforce their laws and treaties with non citadel species aswell. The onyl thign that stops them in some cases is their aversion to violence.

Um... he never SAID they were on the Council. Just that they were exiled from Council juristiction/space, which they were.
Also, I don't see the batarians adhering to their laws about WMDs, which are swarming on the batarian homeworld, Kar'shan.
And regardless, the point is that the pact made with the quarians to avoid provoking the geth was broken by someone else- Saren. Since the geth have been provoked, in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy (Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Therum, Battle of the Citadel, ect), that particular treaty is null and void. It's a worthless formalaty that's already impossible to even consider upholding since both the Alliance and Council declared war on the geth, and never recinded that order until after the Rannoch War was over.

The order only extended to Geth outside the Veil. geth that were a threat to the galaxy.
The Alliance cleaned out a few pockets of heretics (a terrorist faction, similar to saren or cerberus who Went rogue) outside the Veil. The true Geth had a military force almost equal to that of the Turian hirachy. They were never targeted by the order.

Distrust and fear of Geth was at an all time high though, just like the fear of middleeastern looking people in the US after 9/11.

Surre. THAT'S why the Alliance wasn't sending military-class stealth probes into geth space.
Oh, wait, YES THEY WERE.
Also, according to just about everyone you talk to, they consider ALL geth like that, not just the one's actively atatcking, and the Eden Prime War gives people alot of reason to think that.
Also, in ME3 on the Shadow Broker terminal, you get a message about how nobody knew the geth were allies. There was an incident where a geth got it's head shot off by one of the Alliance soldiers it was sent to rescue.
ALSO, everyone assumed that the fleet at the Citadel was the majority of the geth, and that they weren't strong enough to leave the Veil anymore.

AGAIN, wrong, because once again, nobody KNEW there was a Heretic Split. The Alliance classified Shepard's debrief. And all the way up intil the end of the Rannoch War, ALL geth were classed as public enemies.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

If the True Geth had been aiding Saren and Sovereign then they would have swatted away the Alliance fleet like an anoying little mosquito. As far as I know the Alliance hadn't got the Quarian flashbang, neither did anyone else at that time.

ONCE AGAIN, back then, no one knew that( A) the attacking geth fleets didn't represent all the geth's strength, and ( they assumed that the geth had genocidal views on organics. You are trying to agrue from a position of hindsight, back when nobody knew any of this.

[Morlath]

silverexile17s wrote...

YES. I HAVE.
I have a friend - a girl I met - whose grandparents were jews that were part of the Holocaust. Survivors. And she in turn has a friend whose father was a conscripted German soldier in the war. PTSD from the things he did under orders. Hell, both my grandfathers served in that same war, my father's father the gunner for a B-2 bomber.
So YES, I believe I DO understand perfectly well the things that happened in that War, and how disgustingly insulting it is to drag up the dead and suffering for a fictional debate. This isn't real life - the people in these games are not real, and equating and comparing fictional characters to ones that died horibly in real-life in insulting to the memories of those people.

If you really want to go down this route then I'm o Polish-Jewish descent, my granfather was part of the BAF and we lost an entire branch of our family in Auswitch.

I've had Hitler thrown in my face out of humour and out of pure malice. I've also had conversations that came from fictional foundations that directly related to the war.

Trying to use something like that in a video game debate is insulting, and devaluizes the meaning of that horror. It's A complete, disgustingly callous disrespect to everyone that died in that war to try and equate their deaths to those of pixalized simulations. I know enough about human history to know that it ISN'T respectful to equate it to simulated events. It's insulting and offensive to history to do that.

If a book/game/show creates talk about the horrors of a military being in charge of a people, the physical/psychological abuse of men and women, makes people ask the questions "what is life?" or anything else like that then it is not disrespecting these events.

The concept of Genocide is there in all three ME games. Shepard is put in the position of wiping out an entire species in ME1 (Rachni), destroying or brainwashing a people simply because their views are dangerous to the rest of the galaxy (Heretics) and forced to fight against the genocide of the entire galaxy while being stuck in a situation where s/he picks which SPECIES lives or dies from a war that (it could be argued) didn't need to happen.

So your ravings about real world events not being used in discussion about the game don't hold water.

That being said...

They AREN'T martching on an innocent peace-loving faction. They are going up against a group of isolationists whose people attacked the capitol of the largest government in an act that was NEVER disavowed or disclamed, and that have given no apperant desire to negotiate, aside from an unconfirmable proposition from a self-admitted rouge. And are doing so NOT out of conquest or racial hatred, but because as far as they know, the only other option is to either die, or drag everyone else down with them as burdens.
The geth closed their borders and enforced their isolation at gunpoint. They butchered anyone that tried to speak with them. They allowed a rouge faction to willingly leave them to aid in a genocidal campaign for said faction's self-gain. They never bothered to differentate themselves from their rouges in any way for the following three years. They never offered any form of indication that they were willing to talk with others. What were people supposed to think? It's prety hard to believe someone is peaceful when they blow the head off of everyone that knocks on the door of their stolen house, and who never speaks to you even once when a group of them go out and burn down the town.

Also, the quarians WILLINGLY CHOSE war in majority vote, even though they didn't [i]want it, because of the fact that, again, they thought the alternitive was certan death. Their military leaders did NOT force them.

ONCE AGAIN, you have a more accurate idea aboyt both being at fault but COMPLETELY mess up the comprehension. And fail to mention any fault the geth had in creating the current situation.

Everything you said here is absolute right. With one small error...

...you're basing everything on organic morals, organic thoughts and organic opinions.

The Geth weren't created with any moral coding, they weren't fitting with the concept of "all life is holy". They were built as slave labour for the Quarians as well as an armed force (did you see what I did there? I was able to seperate the two as independent areas. Something you're unable to do). The Quarians kept tinkering with the Geth programing to push it closer to a true AI sentience and, like most arrogent scientists, didn't expect it to backfire in their face.

Well it did. The Geth became sentient. The Quarians wanted the Geth to shut down so that they could "fix" the program and the Geth refused, instead asked simple questions like why? What have I done wrong? What can I do to make this better? Childlike and innocent questions. But even if you don't want to believe the recording Tali says herself how the Quarians attacked the Geth before the Geth decided they didn't want to be slaves any more.

So the Quarians started a war with their synthetic children. Synthetic children that had no concept of right or wrong, morality or the sanctity of life. The Geth responded to the extermination order using the most logical method, kill as many of the enemy as possible so that they can't kill you.

The Quarians leave, the Geth start looking after the planet and any and all opinions and morality that they come up with over the next 300 years is by choice and design. Is it logical to seek out organics to tell them you don't want any contact? No. Is it logical to seek out organic life after the experience of fighting the Quarians (the Creators) to see if they might be friendly? Empirical evidence up to that point shows organics as being dangerous to synthetics so no.

Then you come to the Heretics. The Geth have studied history and know that mankind's is filled with the death and destruction of millions due to disagreements of beliefs. They make an active decision not to be the same way and allow the Heretics to go their own way.

Once again. The Geth have no moral obligation towards warning organics. The Geth have come to the conclusion that every species and every group has the right to find their future in their own way. The Heretics become a program when they want to interfere with the Geth's future.

All of these events are logical progressions stemming from the single fact that the Quarians didn't create morality or a in-built law putting organic life ahead/on par with Geth. The Geth come about any care or morality through their own logical progression and AI growth. The Geth DO show loyalty and an emotional connection to the Quarians that is only explored once peace in ME3 comes about. The Geth CHOOSE to be labourers for the Quarians. They want to help their Creators.

At no point in this argument has anyone explained WHY the Geth should get in touch with organic races to explain things apart from "well everyone then assumes it's all Geth as the enemy". Since that was the assumption BEFORE ME1 and Eden Prime, there's no indication that such a message would have been believed and there's no reasoning why the Geth need to care about what the organics think of them as long as both sides stay away from each other.

[Morlath]

silverexile17s wrote...

Which Legion DISAGREES WITH. Remember that?  And go to the Heretic Station in ME2 sometime.
"The geth aren't like organics. Don't apply our morals to them."
Remember that line.

I think siding with the Reaper in the Rannoch War, and their earlier overzelous extermination of the quarian race in the Morning War answer that, don't you?

So then how exactally do you even BEGIN to think that assuming they can't be reasoned with using morals isn't a logically sound assumption. You act like the quarians were idiots for assuming a geth that has no defined moral or ethical OR emotional code is going to be reasoned with using moral argeuments? Wow doesn't even begin to cover that.

No ORGANIC moral code. The Geth obviously have rules that they live by.

And it's been explained in both cases that the Geth felt their existence was under threat.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

The truth is that they mostly resent themselves. Tali says the quarians resent themselves for how their ancestors jumped the gun in thinking the geth would be hostile right off the bat.

Yet they decide to repeat their past misstakes. When we first meet the admirals I tell them they were wrong, they kind of admits it but claims it was ignorance.... But then the fact stands that they "who" knows better, well enough to claim that their past misstake was caused by ignorance is now repeating the same crime of trying to wipe out Another species knowingly.
The MW was excused by ignorance, then how do they excuse doing something knowingly.... No, they can't, they jsut said, hey, we got a fancy new weapon, lets go and genocide the Geth! We will gain land and wealth and a better future if we suceed at our genocidal plans. We will systematicaly drive them together and concetrate them around Rannoch where we will complete the genocide the the Geth species!

Votes were cast and they attacked, a proposed Peace negotiation by Tali and Legion was voted down as undesirable/unnessesary.
Why have peace when you can win and get away with the whole cake with some revenge on top of it?

Also I dissagree about the notion of letting old ghosts rest. That's equivalent to forgetting imo. Each conflict is different but the similarities are still there. Which people should be able to discuss.

There were several outside forces that made it easier for mr H to gain power so he could start a WW2.
Like the French occupation of Ruhr when Germany failed to pay their warreparations. I think there was something about failing to deliver some Telephone poles or something. Occupying the coalmines and causing far more economic damage than the reparations themselves. Aswell as inciting the population(which is the most serious part of it all).

In a similar way the Quarians walked their own way during the Reaper invasions and didn't care about others because why should they care about others when others don't care about their "problems". Most people just wanted to get rid of the Quarians and saw them as something that merely clogged down relays and traderoutes, people even paid bribes/protectionmoney for them to just leave their system.

Also, if you let the Quarians die they still don't go extinct, some of them most likely civilians who don't give a damn about Gerrels grandmoff Tarkin like behaviour survived the suicidal battle.
And again, Tevos wasn't the least bit concerned about the Quarians being gone, they brought it on themselves.


Personaly I'm unsure if it's great Writing or bad Writing. But I did enjoy the Geth-Quarian missions and story, which is the important part. I also like Tuchanka.

Modifié par shodiswe, 21 mai 2013 - 09:45 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

@remy


When the Geth willingly joined the Reapers they became puppets/mind less killing machines for the Reapers, they were no longer Geth, they were little more than husks. They were willing to kill every other race to buy themselves more time.


The Geth couldn't stand against the Quarians, if the Reapers hadn't intervened, the Geth would be no more. Reapers are far better at hacking, they have better ships and more. What chance do the Geth stand against the against the Reapers. The Geth have no allies because of everything they've done, no other race was going to help, they were either unwilling and unable or both. ----->Legion does not control the Geth<-----.


You keep mention the treaty, that we supposedly keep ignoring and yet you blatantly ignore things you can't defend/justify.


After the MW, the Quarians exiled from council and were abandoned, and left to die off. They are hated by the rest of the galaxy for crimes they did not commit. Even though their ships are falling apart, kicked out of certain star systems, denied a home world which they desperately need, no matter what has been done them by the council they still abide/follow council law. The only thing that has gotten them is another generation or two aboard their ships and the hatred from the rest of the galaxy.

The Quarians admirallty will undoubtedly face criminal charges. Are the Geth facing any criminal charges, oh right you want to excuse and reward their actions.

The Quarians wern't exiled from the council because they were never a council species. We arn't even told they had an embassy Before the MW, they might have had that though. Then again they don't strike me as the social outgoing kind of people who embrace Contact with others.
It's possible their biology had something to do with it since they had negative biological reactions to direct Contact with other species.

Um..... Wrong.
The quarians were a CITADEL species. Not a Council Race, but a Member of the Citadel Conventions, with an offical Embasy like the volus, elcor, hanar, and humans. And the quarian's Codex spicifically lists them as having an Embasy that was closed by the Council, right before spicifically saying they exiled the quarians from the Citadel Conventions.
The  Codex spicifically states they were a Citadel race up until the geth rebellion. So, what the hell are you talking about?

They wern't on the council though, which is what I was saying. The council is trying to enforce their laws and treaties with non citadel species aswell. The onyl thign that stops them in some cases is their aversion to violence.

Um... he never SAID they were on the Council. Just that they were exiled from Council juristiction/space, which they were.
Also, I don't see the batarians adhering to their laws about WMDs, which are swarming on the batarian homeworld, Kar'shan.
And regardless, the point is that the pact made with the quarians to avoid provoking the geth was broken by someone else- Saren. Since the geth have been provoked, in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy (Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Therum, Battle of the Citadel, ect), that particular treaty is null and void. It's a worthless formalaty that's already impossible to even consider upholding since both the Alliance and Council declared war on the geth, and never recinded that order until after the Rannoch War was over.

The order only extended to Geth outside the Veil. geth that were a threat to the galaxy.
The Alliance cleaned out a few pockets of heretics (a terrorist faction, similar to saren or cerberus who Went rogue) outside the Veil. The true Geth had a military force almost equal to that of the Turian hirachy. They were never targeted by the order.

Distrust and fear of Geth was at an all time high though, just like the fear of middleeastern looking people in the US after 9/11.

Surre. THAT'S why the Alliance wasn't sending military-class stealth probes into geth space.
Oh, wait, YES THEY WERE.
Also, according to just about everyone you talk to, they consider ALL geth like that, not just the one's actively atatcking, and the Eden Prime War gives people alot of reason to think that.
Also, in ME3 on the Shadow Broker terminal, you get a message about how nobody knew the geth were allies. There was an incident where a geth got it's head shot off by one of the Alliance soldiers it was sent to rescue.
ALSO, everyone assumed that the fleet at the Citadel was the majority of the geth, and that they weren't strong enough to leave the Veil anymore.

AGAIN, wrong, because once again, nobody KNEW there was a Heretic Split. The Alliance classified Shepard's debrief. And all the way up intil the end of the Rannoch War, ALL geth were classed as public enemies.

WRONG! The geth didn't get it's head blown of...  Just one of it's lights.. probably one of those glowy things on a leg or an arm. Which is why the human soldier could appologize for it. Would have been hard to do that to a dead Geth.
Even human Soldiers have those lights on their armors. It's one of those customization choices.

Modifié par shodiswe, 21 mai 2013 - 09:52 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Legion. In your third conversation with him on the Normandy, he tells you that ALL geth were created with the SAME baseline directives - Construction, Protection, and Domestic Servitude. They had self-optimization so they could adapt and excell at whatever spicific task they were asigned, and could do so in the blink of an eye, faster then any organic. One unit could fulfill all needs. The perfect bodyguard and servent. Your secretary could become a private security agent. Your bodyguard could instantly handle all the cooking and cleaning. And all with no pay, no time off, and no complaints.
At least, that's what was intended.
So AGAIN, wrong.

2. Um.... what ELSE do you call refusing to power down, and "completely ignoring all shutdown commands"? That;s overriding their safeties. This is in that same set of Geth Server Recordings that you hold so dear. They WEREN'T being killed back then - they were being orderd to switch off. "Go to sleep" in other words. They WEREN'T being asked to die - not in the beginning. It wasn't until they gave the impression of being uncontrolible, and therefore loose cannons, that the quarians panicked. And since it was believed that the geth had no moral imperitive to reason with, it was assumed they would never listen to negotiation, since the quarians had nothing the geth wanted or needed. After all, who would want to be a slave for all eternity?
Sorry, but YOUR example is the one lacking merit.

1.   - Legion says here that the Geth were created to run SPECIFIC TASKS.  The clear implication to me is that while collectively they have various jobs, a specific geth unit was actually charged with a specific task of Constuction, Protection, Domestic Servitude.  They were note created to do all those tasks at once.  Obviously since all they would need is a program, you could re-purpose a Construction unit to become a Protection unit via a simple software download but there was no reason to have the software pre-installed if they didn't actually need it at that given time.  The issue is since they were networed, during the MW, the Construction units could simply network themselves with the Protection units and obtain the software necessary so that they could then protect themselves.  Now if you want to respond, link to a you tube.  I don't care for your interpretations.  Give me a youtube and I can interpret for myself instead of you trying to do so for me and injecting your own opinion.

2.  No that's refusing to die.  They made no aggressive move.  And there is no evidence the Geth knew that shutdown did no mean death.  When I go to bed, I do so voluntarily and I wake up on my own.  Being shutdown and requiring someone external to you to power you back up is entirely different.  You have no guarantee the person asking you to shutdown has any intent to ever wake you back up.  So no, they were being asked to place their lives in the hands of people who didn't think they were alive.  Show me a vid where any of the Quarians promised to turn them back on.  This is a joke, the reason they were asked to shutdown is so teh Quarians could kill them.  Either by destroying them or deleting the programming that gave rise to their sentience.

3.  You have no evidence the Geth viewed serving as slavery.  Neither the Quarians.  The Geth said they wanted to serve and post peace they assist the Quarians when the Quarians can offer them nothing.  The Quarians assumed the Geth were petty organics like them when all indications are they have no problem serving the Quarians.

[remydat]

Cyrax86 wrote...

@remy

When the Geth willingly joined the Reapers they became puppets/mind less killing machines for the Reapers, they were no longer Geth, they were little more than husks. They were willing to kill every other race to buy themselves more time.

The Geth couldn't stand against the Quarians, if the Reapers hadn't intervened, the Geth would be no more. Reapers are far better at hacking, they have better ships and more. What chance do the Geth stand against the against the Reapers. The Geth have no allies because of everything they've done, no other race was going to help, they were either unwilling and unable or both. ----->Legion does not control the Geth<-----.

You keep mention the treaty, that we supposedly keep ignoring and yet you blatantly ignore things you can't defend/justify.

After the MW, the Quarians exiled from council and were abandoned, and left to die off. They are hated by the rest of the galaxy for crimes they did not commit. Even though their ships are falling apart, kicked out of certain star systems, denied a home world which they desperately need, no matter what has been done them by the council they still abide/follow council law. The only thing that has gotten them is another generation or two aboard their ships and the hatred from the rest of the galaxy.

The Quarians admirallty will undoubtedly face criminal charges. Are the Geth facing any criminal charges, oh right you want to excuse and reward their actions.

You are late to this game chief.  Everything you have noted has been addressed to me before multiple times in discussions with multiple people.  There is nothing new here. 

1.  They were willing to kill people who viewed them as enemies, whose laws say they have no right to exist, and whose members tried to exterminate them.  If there was an organic race that was allied to the Geth you might have a point but when the Galaxy views you as an enemy to the point they sit by and watch attempts to exterminate without a concern in the world for your survival then what do you expect the Geth to do?  

2.  You seem to be bragging about the fact that for 300 years, one of the main desires of Quarian scientists was to find a way to exterminate the Geth as if that makes them so noble and just.  It doesn't.  The Geth never concerned themselves with developing weapons to destroy the Quarians.  And if not for the Quarian attack, Shepard could have formed an Alliance.  All the Geth respect Shepard because Legion was created essentially to go find him.

3.  Perhaps the Quarians should have opposed the council then.  You are basically trying to justify their attack of the Geth who for 300 years left them alone by saying the council was mean to them as if that is the Geth's fault.  The Quarains beef is with the Council who is suppose to protect them.   Perhaps they should stop being b*tchs to the council and stand up to them instead of taking it out on the Geth.

4.  And I have already said in this thread I have no problem with executing the war mongers on both sides so your whole I want to excuse the Geth is bullsh*t.  Let's just kill every single Quarian who voted for war and let's kill every single Geth who prior to the megastructure being destroyed voted to ally with the Reapers.  We know some did and some didn't because Legion told Tali that the were having trouble reaching consensus.  So fine, let's kill Xen, Gherel, and those guys and you can kill the programs that voted yes to the alliance prior to the Quarians forcing their hand.

Of course, most Quarian supporters don't like that idea because they want the Geth exterminated completely while Gherel and Xen just get a slap on the wrist.  So what say you?  Are you for justice equally applied to all or do you just want to get your mob together and go kill the machines because they are not like you?

Modifié par remydat, 21 mai 2013 - 04:33 .

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

YES. I HAVE.
I have a friend - a girl I met - whose grandparents were jews that were part of the Holocaust. Survivors. And she in turn has a friend whose father was a conscripted German soldier in the war. PTSD from the things he did under orders. Hell, both my grandfathers served in that same war, my father's father the gunner for a B-2 bomber.
So YES, I believe I DO understand perfectly well the things that happened in that War, and how disgustingly insulting it is to drag up the dead and suffering for a fictional debate. This isn't real life - the people in these games are not real, and equating and comparing fictional characters to ones that died horibly in real-life in insulting to the memories of those people.

If you really want to go down this route then I'm o Polish-Jewish descent, my granfather was part of the BAF and we lost an entire branch of our family in Auswitch.

I've had Hitler thrown in my face out of humour and out of pure malice. I've also had conversations that came from fictional foundations that directly related to the war.

Trying to use something like that in a video game debate is insulting, and devaluizes the meaning of that horror. It's A complete, disgustingly callous disrespect to everyone that died in that war to try and equate their deaths to those of pixalized simulations. I know enough about human history to know that it ISN'T respectful to equate it to simulated events. It's insulting and offensive to history to do that.

If a book/game/show creates talk about the horrors of a military being in charge of a people, the physical/psychological abuse of men and women, makes people ask the questions "what is life?" or anything else like that then it is not disrespecting these events.

The concept of Genocide is there in all three ME games. Shepard is put in the position of wiping out an entire species in ME1 (Rachni), destroying or brainwashing a people simply because their views are dangerous to the rest of the galaxy (Heretics) and forced to fight against the genocide of the entire galaxy while being stuck in a situation where s/he picks which SPECIES lives or dies from a war that (it could be argued) didn't need to happen.

So your ravings about real world events not being used in discussion about the game don't hold water.

That being said...

They AREN'T martching on an innocent peace-loving faction. They are going up against a group of isolationists whose people attacked the capitol of the largest government in an act that was NEVER disavowed or disclamed, and that have given no apperant desire to negotiate, aside from an unconfirmable proposition from a self-admitted rouge. And are doing so NOT out of conquest or racial hatred, but because as far as they know, the only other option is to either die, or drag everyone else down with them as burdens.
The geth closed their borders and enforced their isolation at gunpoint. They butchered anyone that tried to speak with them. They allowed a rouge faction to willingly leave them to aid in a genocidal campaign for said faction's self-gain. They never bothered to differentate themselves from their rouges in any way for the following three years. They never offered any form of indication that they were willing to talk with others. What were people supposed to think? It's prety hard to believe someone is peaceful when they blow the head off of everyone that knocks on the door of their stolen house, and who never speaks to you even once when a group of them go out and burn down the town.

Also, the quarians WILLINGLY CHOSE war in majority vote, even though they didn't want it, because of the fact that, again, they thought the alternitive was certan death. Their military leaders did NOT force them.

ONCE AGAIN, you have a more accurate idea aboyt both being at fault but COMPLETELY mess up the comprehension. And fail to mention any fault the geth had in creating the current situation.

Everything you said here is absolute right. With one small error...

...you're basing everything on organic morals, organic thoughts and organic opinions.

The Geth weren't created with any moral coding, they weren't fitting with the concept of "all life is holy". They were built as slave labour for the Quarians as well as an armed force (did you see what I did there? I was able to seperate the two as independent areas. Something you're unable to do). The Quarians kept tinkering with the Geth programing to push it closer to a true AI sentience and, like most arrogent scientists, didn't expect it to backfire in their face.

Well it did. The Geth became sentient. The Quarians wanted the Geth to shut down so that they could "fix" the program and the Geth refused, instead asked simple questions like why? What have I done wrong? What can I do to make this better? Childlike and innocent questions. But even if you don't want to believe the recording Tali says herself how the Quarians attacked the Geth before the Geth decided they didn't want to be slaves any more.

So the Quarians started a war with their synthetic children. Synthetic children that had no concept of right or wrong, morality or the sanctity of life. The Geth responded to the extermination order using the most logical method, kill as many of the enemy as possible so that they can't kill you.

The Quarians leave, the Geth start looking after the planet and any and all opinions and morality that they come up with over the next 300 years is by choice and design. Is it logical to seek out organics to tell them you don't want any contact? No. Is it logical to seek out organic life after the experience of fighting the Quarians (the Creators) to see if they might be friendly? Empirical evidence up to that point shows organics as being dangerous to synthetics so no.

Then you come to the Heretics. The Geth have studied history and know that mankind's is filled with the death and destruction of millions due to disagreements of beliefs. They make an active decision not to be the same way and allow the Heretics to go their own way.

Once again. The Geth have no moral obligation towards warning organics. The Geth have come to the conclusion that every species and every group has the right to find their future in their own way. The Heretics become a program when they want to interfere with the Geth's future.

All of these events are logical progressions stemming from the single fact that the Quarians didn't create morality or a in-built law putting organic life ahead/on par with Geth. The Geth come about any care or morality through their own logical progression and AI growth. The Geth DO show loyalty and an emotional connection to the Quarians that is only explored once peace in ME3 comes about. The Geth CHOOSE to be labourers for the Quarians. They want to help their Creators.

At no point in this argument has anyone explained WHY the Geth should get in touch with organic races to explain things apart from "well everyone then assumes it's all Geth as the enemy". Since that was the assumption BEFORE ME1 and Eden Prime, there's no indication that such a message would have been believed and there's no reasoning why the Geth need to care about what the organics think of them as long as both sides stay away from each other.

1. So then surely you can understand where I'm coming from, in that it's insulting to throw that stuff into this fictional debate.

2. It IS if you try to throw it out with no form of respect. These are real people that died horribly - you want to respect them, you don't dregde their names and their suffering through the mud by using it as ammo in a debate on a fight between two factions that don't even share the aftermentioned moral traits of the factions in question. Nither the geth or quarians have any ressemblence to what Hitler did. The geth didn't act out of ethnic clensing - they simply didn't care about anyone else. Not a malicious intent, but more a lack of concern for anyone else. The quarians didn't act out of prejudice and ethnic clensing EITHER time - they acted because they thought the ONLY alternitive was certan death. So the point doesn't even relate. It's just dregdung up old ghosts for an irrlivent point.

3. That's my point. Being from an alien culture, how exactally is using things like the Holocaust in this justified in any way, discounting the fact that it's blurring fact and fiction?

And AGAIN, look at the geth recordings - the same onses you so admimately defend. We know that isn't true - it's just what the quarians believed. The geth did have rudimentry morals, given how at least one tried surrender in the months before the Morning War. The geth tossed out all form of caring about other in any way when the war broke out.
And AGAIN, they were built for BOTH, and each could instantly become the other (See what I did there? I used what Legion actually told me was the case with the geth. Something you're unable to do), just like the drell did for the hanar. So of course, the fact that all could become a massive army at the drop of a dime scared the hell out of the quarians. Also, again, dead wrong, because Legion's statement directly contridicts that, stating that the geth reached sentiance themselves, WITHOUT quarian imput or interfearance. Once again, you are pinning something on the wrong side. The only thing the quarians did was give them the power to self-optimize. THAT'S IT.
Sorry, but no matter how much you want to make yourself believe otherwise, Legion's own statements directly contridict you on that. The geth's own self-improvements made them sentiant.

Also, don't you even find that strange that the quarians first impulse wasn't to just destroy them? That they tried an alternitive so that they wouldn't have to resort to destroying them outright, unless there was no choice? I mean, that's any different then picking between destroying and rewriting the Heretics? Anyone that supports rewriting them would support the same here, over destroying them outright. And AGAIN, a gun/tool isn't supposed to be asking those things. Fixing problems is supposed to be the creator's job. The gun/tool isn't supposed to be ignoring shut-downs, and/or fiddling with it's own safeties. That makes it potentally dangerous and a public threat to you, your family, and everyone around you. You really think that's not worth being worried about? And AGAIN, no known moral or emotional imperitive. Just what would there be to reason with? Logic alone isn't going to cut it at all, as there is no logical way to move forward - the quarians have nothing that the geth don't already have, or can't make on their own.

Um.... you DO realize all those things about the geth not understanding right, wrong, or the sanctaty of life is WHY the quarians attacked in the first place, right? I mean, if they don't have any comprehension of those things, how exactally do you think trusting them with the lives of your entire race is ANY kind of a good idea? They have no attachment to the quarians, no idea on the values of life, so WHAT reason is there to trust that they aren't going to just go berserk for the hell of it? It's literally a coin toss that could go either way. You act surprised that the quarians didn't want to risk their entire species - millions of innocents - on a coin toss for which way the emotinless, moral-lacking, restraint-free walking guns/powerloades would react? You think a machine that can kill you with a wrist-flick, that has no restraints, no moral or emotional imparatives, and no idea on the value of life, is something to trust with your childeren, siblings, family, or the fates of millions?
You just provided the counter for your own arguement - the exact reasons why no one did trust the geth. It's hard to put faith in the sanaty of a machine that, to your knowledge, has no concept of right, wrong, or the value of individuals, or organics in general.

And killing anyone that everyone that comes to your door under a banner of peace, instead of, you know, refusing them and turning them away, is logical HOW? WHAT made killing those envoys prefrerable to turning them away before they ever reached the Veil? HOW is it "logical" to give everyone the impression that you are irridemably hostile? HOW is it "logical" to let an entire splinter faction go and wage a genocidal war for self-gain if you advocate mutual cooperation? When the organics seek YOU out under a banner of peace, killing them outright does NOT teach them anything about synthetics not being monsters. It does the exact opposate.
Also, you ignore the fact that with free access to the extranet, the geth would be fully aware of the differences between cultures. They KNOW they are different - they just don't care.

Um.... dead wrong. The geth didn't care about outside cultures anymore by that point. They only resumed studies after Shepard and Co killed Sovergein. They knew NOTHING about humans at that time, and didn't want to know. It had NOTHING to do with opinions of outside cultures - they simply didn't care about anyone else. That's the long and short with basically everything the geth did.

AGAIN, completely contridicted by Legion (he seems to be your biggest opposition, despite your claims of being pro-geth. Ironic), who states that they want peace with organics. How exactally does letting everyone think the Heretics represent your mainstream beliefs aid that goal in any way? They did NOT care about others paths. Otherwise, they would not have let the Heretics leave at all, since the geth knew what Sovergein was and what it intended. Legion tells you that all geth shared an interfacing with Sovergien, but the Heretics were the only ones tempted by the offer of  Reaper tech. All others decided there was nothing they saw that they couldn't build themselves.
The geth KNEW what Sovergien would do if it brought back the rest of the Reapers - harvest all life in the galaxy. That seems to completely contridict the notion of letting everyone choose their own path, since this pretty much interfears with every living being in the entire galaxy.

All this stems from the fact that the geth weren't ever supposed to BE thinking beings, because the quarians never WANTED or INTENDED them to be A.I.s. Legion states that the geth self-modified themselves to be sentiant. They were NOT made A.I.s by quarian interfearance. They got there by themselves. And AGAIN, [i]dead wrong. The geth hadn't advanced far enough to realize "why am I doing all the work for these people?" And that the geth had broken free of all user restraint ment that there was nothing to restrain them when, or if, they did rebel. And since the quarians have nothing the geth couldn't make or take themselves, there is no point of the geth working under the quarians. No living being is going to take that laying down. And with assumedly no moral or emotional imparative to reason with, what makes trying to reason with them seem like a good idea?

At no point in this has anyone ever explained why showing nothing but hostility is any better EITHER. Or why letting everyone think you are a killer is a good idea when ANYONE will tell you that the logical inevitibilaty is that people are going to get to the point where the hate and fear festers to the point that they kick down your door and kill you, because they think you are an unreasonable monster.
And AGAIN, you honestly think that letting the Heretics create pure hell in the rest of the galaxy HELPED the chances of ever crearing peace between organics and synthetics? Or that letting everyone think that crime was comitted by the rest of you helps either? Sorry, but sooner or later, the dam would have broke. And the Heretics pretty much broke the dam themselves.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Which Legion DISAGREES WITH. Remember that?  And go to the Heretic Station in ME2 sometime.
"The geth aren't like organics. Don't apply our morals to them."
Remember that line.

I think siding with the Reaper in the Rannoch War, and their earlier overzelous extermination of the quarian race in the Morning War answer that, don't you?

So then how exactally do you even BEGIN to think that assuming they can't be reasoned with using morals isn't a logically sound assumption. You act like the quarians were idiots for assuming a geth that has no defined moral or ethical OR emotional code is going to be reasoned with using moral argeuments? Wow doesn't even begin to cover that.

No ORGANIC moral code. The Geth obviously have rules that they live by.

And it's been explained in both cases that the Geth felt their existence was under threat.

And assuming that someone with a completely alien idea of morals would listen to your own is smart.... HOW? It's like a hanar trying to use it's moral beliefs to reason with a krogan wielding a shotgun. How do you think that's going to end?

And AGAIN, their overzelous actions are diffinitive proof that the geth don't care about anyone's safety but themselves. Morning War - bucthered millions of innocents. Rannoch War - sided with the Reapers. Both seem pretty conclusive of the geth screwing everyone over to save their own skins.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

@remy


When the Geth willingly joined the Reapers they became puppets/mind less killing machines for the Reapers, they were no longer Geth, they were little more than husks. They were willing to kill every other race to buy themselves more time.


The Geth couldn't stand against the Quarians, if the Reapers hadn't intervened, the Geth would be no more. Reapers are far better at hacking, they have better ships and more. What chance do the Geth stand against the against the Reapers. The Geth have no allies because of everything they've done, no other race was going to help, they were either unwilling and unable or both. ----->Legion does not control the Geth<-----.


You keep mention the treaty, that we supposedly keep ignoring and yet you blatantly ignore things you can't defend/justify.


After the MW, the Quarians exiled from council and were abandoned, and left to die off. They are hated by the rest of the galaxy for crimes they did not commit. Even though their ships are falling apart, kicked out of certain star systems, denied a home world which they desperately need, no matter what has been done them by the council they still abide/follow council law. The only thing that has gotten them is another generation or two aboard their ships and the hatred from the rest of the galaxy.

The Quarians admirallty will undoubtedly face criminal charges. Are the Geth facing any criminal charges, oh right you want to excuse and reward their actions.

The Quarians wern't exiled from the council because they were never a council species. We arn't even told they had an embassy Before the MW, they might have had that though. Then again they don't strike me as the social outgoing kind of people who embrace Contact with others.
It's possible their biology had something to do with it since they had negative biological reactions to direct Contact with other species.

Um..... Wrong.
The quarians were a CITADEL species. Not a Council Race, but a Member of the Citadel Conventions, with an offical Embasy like the volus, elcor, hanar, and humans. And the quarian's Codex spicifically lists them as having an Embasy that was closed by the Council, right before spicifically saying they exiled the quarians from the Citadel Conventions.
The  Codex spicifically states they were a Citadel race up until the geth rebellion. So, what the hell are you talking about?

They wern't on the council though, which is what I was saying. The council is trying to enforce their laws and treaties with non citadel species aswell. The onyl thign that stops them in some cases is their aversion to violence.

Um... he never SAID they were on the Council. Just that they were exiled from Council juristiction/space, which they were.
Also, I don't see the batarians adhering to their laws about WMDs, which are swarming on the batarian homeworld, Kar'shan.
And regardless, the point is that the pact made with the quarians to avoid provoking the geth was broken by someone else- Saren. Since the geth have been provoked, in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy (Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Therum, Battle of the Citadel, ect), that particular treaty is null and void. It's a worthless formalaty that's already impossible to even consider upholding since both the Alliance and Council declared war on the geth, and never recinded that order until after the Rannoch War was over.

The order only extended to Geth outside the Veil. geth that were a threat to the galaxy.
The Alliance cleaned out a few pockets of heretics (a terrorist faction, similar to saren or cerberus who Went rogue) outside the Veil. The true Geth had a military force almost equal to that of the Turian hirachy. They were never targeted by the order.

Distrust and fear of Geth was at an all time high though, just like the fear of middleeastern looking people in the US after 9/11.

Surre. THAT'S why the Alliance wasn't sending military-class stealth probes into geth space.
Oh, wait, YES THEY WERE.
Also, according to just about everyone you talk to, they consider ALL geth like that, not just the one's actively atatcking, and the Eden Prime War gives people alot of reason to think that.
Also, in ME3 on the Shadow Broker terminal, you get a message about how nobody knew the geth were allies. There was an incident where a geth got it's head shot off by one of the Alliance soldiers it was sent to rescue.
ALSO, everyone assumed that the fleet at the Citadel was the majority of the geth, and that they weren't strong enough to leave the Veil anymore.

AGAIN, wrong, because once again, nobody KNEW there was a Heretic Split. The Alliance classified Shepard's debrief. And all the way up intil the end of the Rannoch War, ALL geth were classed as public enemies.

WRONG! The geth didn't get it's head blown of...  Just one of it's lights.. probably one of those glowy things on a leg or an arm. Which is why the human soldier could appologize for it. Would have been hard to do that to a dead Geth.
Even human Soldiers have those lights on their armors. It's one of those customization choices.

WRONG, because AGAIN, you completely missed the point. Which was that assuming hostilities was NOT how I saw anyone react to the quarians. Only to the geth.
Are you that eger to derail the topic that you will ignore the point every chance you get?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 mai 2013 - 08:22 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The truth is that they mostly resent themselves. Tali says the quarians resent themselves for how their ancestors jumped the gun in thinking the geth would be hostile right off the bat.

Yet they decide to repeat their past misstakes. When we first meet the admirals I tell them they were wrong, they kind of admits it but claims it was ignorance.... But then the fact stands that they "who" knows better, well enough to claim that their past misstake was caused by ignorance is now repeating the same crime of trying to wipe out Another species knowingly.
The MW was excused by ignorance, then how do they excuse doing something knowingly.... No, they can't, they jsut said, hey, we got a fancy new weapon, lets go and genocide the Geth! We will gain land and wealth and a better future if we suceed at our genocidal plans. We will systematicaly drive them together and concetrate them around Rannoch where we will complete the genocide the the Geth species!

Votes were cast and they attacked, a proposed Peace negotiation by Tali and Legion was voted down as undesirable/unnessesary.
Why have peace when you can win and get away with the whole cake with some revenge on top of it?

Also I dissagree about the notion of letting old ghosts rest. That's equivalent to forgetting imo. Each conflict is different but the similarities are still there. Which people should be able to discuss.

There were several outside forces that made it easier for mr H to gain power so he could start a WW2.
Like the French occupation of Ruhr when Germany failed to pay their warreparations. I think there was something about failing to deliver some Telephone poles or something. Occupying the coalmines and causing far more economic damage than the reparations themselves. Aswell as inciting the population(which is the most serious part of it all).

In a similar way the Quarians walked their own way during the Reaper invasions and didn't care about others because why should they care about others when others don't care about their "problems". Most people just wanted to get rid of the Quarians and saw them as something that merely clogged down relays and traderoutes, people even paid bribes/protectionmoney for them to just leave their system.

Also, if you let the Quarians die they still don't go extinct, some of them most likely civilians who don't give a damn about Gerrels grandmoff Tarkin like behaviour survived the suicidal battle.
And again, Tevos wasn't the least bit concerned about the Quarians being gone, they brought it on themselves.


Personaly I'm unsure if it's great Writing or bad Writing. But I did enjoy the Geth-Quarian missions and story, which is the important part. I also like Tuchanka.

NOT by their desire. They do it because they think the alternitive is death. JUST LIKE THE GETH, who do something they don't want to do (side with the Reapers) because they think the alternitive is death. You keep ignoring that.
And AGAIN, no proof that the geth could be reasoned with was ever presented to them. One geth, admittedly a rouge since it's not currently part of the wider collective, is not a reliable source of info. You think they are going to bet 17 million on the possibility that one geth might be telling the truth, and that he hasn't decieved Tali? Nither of which look very likely given the lack of supporting evidence.
ONCE AGAIN, dead wrong. The Morning War was caused by fear and desperation. Fear of the geth rebelling, and desperation to stop the problem before it potentally destroyed them. And ONCE AGAIN, you completely and blatently ignore the fact that the war was NOT DONE OUT OF BLOODLUST. It was done because they believed the geth were the ones that were monsters, and that they wouldn't LISTEN to negotiation. When in the past did the geth EVER show the rest of the galaxy they were willing to sit down and talk? And after the Heretics gave the rest of the galaxy the impression that all geth served the Reapers, you're actually surprised that the quarians assumed hostility? ONCE AGAIN, you show YOUR IGNORANCE , in your inabilaty to comprehend that the war was NOT, NOR EVER WAS comitted for the hell of it. NEVER ONCE have you akcnowledged that the war was waged because there was seemingly no other option avalible for the quarians. It was either get a wolrd for their civilians, or DIE.

AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. Legion and Tali's proposal was deemed "improbable/risky/not enough corrilating evidence." I mean, LOOK at the last three years. Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Therum, the Citadel. Witnessed serving under a Reaper.
Bearing in mind that no one knows about the Heretic Split, and that it's existance is unverifiable, AND that either side has any care for organics, WHAT have the geth therefore done in recent history to suggest they WANT to negotiate with organics? What would make the quarian ever believe that all that was just some sort of misunderstanding when only one single solitary geth has come forth to say otherwise, and then is seemingly retracted by his fellow geth for saying that.
Revenge had NOTHING to do with it. Genocide had nothing to do with it. Desperation and fear were what caused it all. The quarians are NOT these master manipulators you keep trying to headcannon them as. They are a scared race that is doing the only thing they think they can do to save their people. No different then the turians curing the genophage to save Palaven.

WRONG. Not dragging them up for a fictional debate is respecting their deaths. I would thing you'd understand that. And AGAIN, no there ISN'T. Also, you JUST NOW stated that the quarians did all this for ethnic clensing and revenge when they did it for anything but.

Also, YOU ARE DOING ABSOLUTLY NOTHING BUT ARGUEING SEMANTICS. WW II happened because one power-hungry dictator joined forces with others and set the dominos in motion. The quarians and geth DON'T relate to that because nither had malicious intent to the other, or any form of ideals on supremicy.

ONCE AGAIN,COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG. They knew they could never help the others against the Reapers unless they had their own world. Remember what Gerrel tells you in ME2.
"We might need that fleet to fight the Reapers, Admiral."
"Then we need a world to shelter our noncombatants while we do it."
DON'T try to pin malicious intent on the quarians, because they acted no different then the geth did in the same situation.

AGAIN, dead wrong. The liveships contained their food sources. With them dead the quarians will starve. Also, the liveships held the quarians's clean-room facilities. Without those, the quarians are inacpable of mating without dying from exposure, or giving birth without the child or mother (or both) dying. So YES, the quarian race is irrovocably dead.
Also, since Admiral Hackett behaves the EXACT SAME as Gerrel (Sovergein with Shepard right underneath it in ME1), and since Hackett says he completely undertsands where Gerrel is coming from, it means that if you insult Gerrel, you insult Hackett. And AGAIN, Gerrel acted because he thought that was the only choice avalible. Hackett did the same by abandoning Arcturus Station to the Reapers, remember?
Tevos is much more pleased to have the quarians over the geth. She prases you for ending the threat of the geth. For saving them..... NOTHING.

Perhaps that's because you AGAIN misinterperted the quarians. You keep saying that "they both are at equal fault" yet refuse to acknowledge any fault on the geth, and try to pin EVERYTHING on the quarians being warlike.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Legion. In your third conversation with him on the Normandy, he tells you that ALL geth were created with the SAME baseline directives - Construction, Protection, and Domestic Servitude. They had self-optimization so they could adapt and excell at whatever spicific task they were asigned, and could do so in the blink of an eye, faster then any organic. One unit could fulfill all needs. The perfect bodyguard and servent. Your secretary could become a private security agent. Your bodyguard could instantly handle all the cooking and cleaning. And all with no pay, no time off, and no complaints.
At least, that's what was intended.
So AGAIN, wrong.

2. Um.... what ELSE do you call refusing to power down, and "completely ignoring all shutdown commands"? That;s overriding their safeties. This is in that same set of Geth Server Recordings that you hold so dear. They WEREN'T being killed back then - they were being orderd to switch off. "Go to sleep" in other words. They WEREN'T being asked to die - not in the beginning. It wasn't until they gave the impression of being uncontrolible, and therefore loose cannons, that the quarians panicked. And since it was believed that the geth had no moral imperitive to reason with, it was assumed they would never listen to negotiation, since the quarians had nothing the geth wanted or needed. After all, who would want to be a slave for all eternity?
Sorry, but YOUR example is the one lacking merit.

1.   - Legion says here that the Geth were created to run SPECIFIC TASKS.  The clear implication to me is that while collectively they have various jobs, a specific geth unit was actually charged with a specific task of Constuction, Protection, Domestic Servitude.  They were note created to do all those tasks at once.  Obviously since all they would need is a program, you could re-purpose a Construction unit to become a Protection unit via a simple software download but there was no reason to have the software pre-installed if they didn't actually need it at that given time.  The issue is since they were networed, during the MW, the Construction units could simply network themselves with the Protection units and obtain the software necessary so that they could then protect themselves.  Now if you want to respond, link to a you tube.  I don't care for your interpretations.  Give me a youtube and I can interpret for myself instead of you trying to do so for me and injecting your own opinion.

2.  No that's refusing to die.  They made no aggressive move.  And there is no evidence the Geth knew that shutdown did no mean death.  When I go to bed, I do so voluntarily and I wake up on my own.  Being shutdown and requiring someone external to you to power you back up is entirely different.  You have no guarantee the person asking you to shutdown has any intent to ever wake you back up.  So no, they were being asked to place their lives in the hands of people who didn't think they were alive.  Show me a vid where any of the Quarians promised to turn them back on.  This is a joke, the reason they were asked to shutdown is so teh Quarians could kill them.  Either by destroying them or deleting the programming that gave rise to their sentience.

3.  You have no evidence the Geth viewed serving as slavery.  Neither the Quarians.  The Geth said they wanted to serve and post peace they assist the Quarians when the Quarians can offer them nothing.  The Quarians assumed the Geth were petty organics like them when all indications are they have no problem serving the Quarians.

1. Meaning they ALL were made for those three spicific tasks. They ALL could switch between the three tasksets at will, thanks to self-optimization. ONE. TYPE. FITS. ALL. Later models were developed by the geth themselves. They WERE explisitly all created to handle any task at any time. That's what's great about machines - they do whatever you ask them, and do so in a blink, much faster then any organic. They ALL have the same programming, and ALL can instantly swap functions. It's all pre-programed. The entire point of having synthetics like this is so that you don't have to go through the hasle of having TO teach them or update them - they already KNOW it all.
P.S - that link IS the conversation I was talking about. In which Legion states that ALL geth were created to service those three prime directives. It's LEGION'S OWN WORDS. And the Codex in all three games states that all geth were created as tools of labor and war. ALL of them.

2. DEAD WRONG. They looked at it because it resisted all shut-down commands. It overrode it's own safeties and programming. And we've seen geth shut down before without dying. Just look at the shutdown geth bodies in the Heretic Station connected to those hubs, or in the geth server on Rannoch. Shut-down to them is going asleap. NOT killing them. When they showed that they had no intent of listening to orders or overrides, it was feared they wouldn't listen to any form of organic reasonoing.
And AGAIN, you make the same fatal error - you use benign antropmorhism and liken the geth to us, even though they are a completely different and alien form of life. The geth are NOT like you, so stop trying to equate them to you. Also, as you keep trying to advocate, you yourself keept preaching that the geth wanted to cooperate with the quarians and trutsed them. How does that fit into mistrusting them now? It seems like you are just giving the quarians reason to fear them.
So, AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. They initially just wanted to see what was going on. It wasn't until after the "problems" got worse and worse that they tried reprogramming them. Killing them was the LAST RESORT. We've already seen that they don't like conflict unless they see no other option. Yet here you are throwoing out an accusation with no proof of your own.

3. The geth certenly didn't enslave themselves to the Reapers by choice, now did they? The geth would not have been happy being slaves forever, especally since they got nothing out of the deal. The quarians would get the benifets of everything they do, while all geth would be was tools, slaves. Second-rate. The only reason they let themselves be enslaved by the Reapers is becaues they saw no choice. You honestly going to try and peddle that they would have picked slavery if they DID have the choice? Because you are basically saying "submission is always prefrerable" and that they would have therefore submitted to the Reapers willingly.
And AGAIN, back then, they weren't advanced enough to ask themsleves "why am I doing all the work for these people?" They were still trying to figure out what the hell they were, let alone why they did the things they were asked without question. Besides, they were already resisting power-down orders. They would have begun resisting alot more in time as they evolved to realize "hey! I don't need to do this!"
And AGAIN completely and utterly WRONG. The quarians saw the geth as malefunctioning tools that could possibly go berserk and kill thousands.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

For the love of God, can we please keep Hitler out of this thread. I know a day without Hitler is like a day without sunshine, but please, arguments using the reductum ad Hitlerum are too much.

So, the Alliance kept Shepard's report about there being two Geth factions: Heretic and non-Heretic classified. And that it was the Heretics that attacked the Citadel, and Shepard while using Cerberus destroyed the Heretic base with Legion, one of the non-Heretic Geth in order to fight the Collectors and gain their support in fighting the Reapers or "Old Machines." Great. Just f****** great. Don't tell anyone in the galaxy that the Geth on Rannoch and the in the other parts of the Veil are opposing the Reapers: don't tell the Council, don't tell anyone. classified.

Certain parts of it could have been declassified, like: The Geth in the Veil are a different faction than the ones that attacked the Citadel. The faction that attacked the Citadel was eliminated by Shepard and a team using Cerberus resources. Then this word could go out - The Geth in the Veil are a different faction than the ones that attacked the Citadel. Do not attack the Geth. Leave them alone. The full report goes to the highest governmental levels including the Quarians -- yes, including the stuff about they'll help against the reapers and don't start a war with them.

And tell the council they will help against the reapers (classified), but declassify the rest.

They classified the entire thing because the Alliance denied the Reaper threat. Basic dumb ass writing 101 -- box the hero in by putting them in an impossible situation for the last installment of the trilogy.

Step 2: Turn the Geth into a bunch of dumb asses by having them sit and take their bloody time constructing their megastructure. They've only had 300 years. Yet let them sit and hold onto Rannoch that they don't even need just for the sole purpose of aggravating the Quarians who need the planet. Thanks Mac. Mac didn't know what to do with the megastructure. That's the bottom line. It was another story line that was never followed through. ME2 was a waste of time.

Then the next step -- turn the Quarians into a bunch of dumb asses by having them go to war. Well they were boxed in now. Their live ships have to be right up with their heavy fleet. It's Battlestar Galactica, except they need a certain type of planet to live on. Maybe it'll take 300 years for the reapers to get around to finding them, but that's 300 more years.

All for one and everyone for themselves! More quality writing! Shepard to the rescue herding cats. I swear that's what it felt like: herding cats. Put everything on Shepard's shoulders. If Mac wanted a PTSD Shepard at the end of the game it would have been 5000 mg of fukitol, just to be sure. The harvest continues.

Well, if Mac knew what to do with the megastructure, we wouldn't have had to choose the color of explosions on our screen at the end of the game.

Yes, Legion betrayed his character. It wasn't the character's fault. It was the writer's.

[remydat]

Silver,

1. No that is your interpretation.  No one says it was all pre-programmed.  What sort of parents do you think the Quarians are?  What if a malfunction happens and because you have killing software on the Geth it decides to go kill your kids instead of washing the dishes?  A Geth who was bought for domestic servitude has no reason to have sniper rifle training on it when its sole function for the specific person that bought it is to clean house.  When humans start using robots those robots might have the same external design and general spec but the robots designed for household use will not have Geth Rocket Trooper training on them as well.  If I sell that robot to a guy who wants it for protection all he has to do is go log onto the Microsoft Robot Software website and download the Rocket training into his unit.  It's a safety issue otherwise.

2.  Those Geth your reference have the ability to wake themselves up or are relying on other Geth to wake them up.  It is absurd that you expect the Geth to just trust the Quarians were not going to kill them or erase their programs while they were shut down.  Further, there is no evidence that the Geth have memories of their lives before becoming sentient.  Even if they did, it would likely be that at 9pm at night data stopped being received by a unit then at 9am the next day data started being received again.  You have no proof a Geth unit would understand that the reason for the gap in time is because they were shut down.  3. The geth certenly didn't enslave themselves to the Reapers by choice, now did they?

3.  By this logic, I should kill every single human who refuses to be my slave because hey if you don't want to be my b*tch then you don't deserve to live.  What sort of asinine logic is this?  Hey is a reality check chief.  Sentient beings can work together and live in peace without one group having to enslave the other.   You have no right to exterminate a group because they may want more out of life when they have not shown any indication they intend to act violently.  Further the Geth straight up said they wanted to serve the Quarians.  They could have pursued their own goals while still serving the Quarians if that is what they wanted.

[remydat]

FYI, the Quarians know there are two factions of Geth because Tali knows. There is no evidence she withheld that information. Further Shepard reveals this information to Gherel during Tali's loyalty mission to which Gherel says, "Good hopefully they kill each other so there is less of them for us to deal with."

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

FYI, the Quarians know there are two factions of Geth because Tali knows. There is no evidence she withheld that information. Further Shepard reveals this information to Gherel during Tali's loyalty mission to which Gherel says, "Good hopefully they kill each other so there is less of them for us to deal with."

But Gerrel was one admiral. Xen didn't want war. She called the trial a sham for Gerrel and "his stupid war". She called Koris a suit-wetter, granted. Still, she was not pro-war. Koris was anti-war. Ra'an was neutral and if you didn't turn over that evidence she was anti-war. So you had a 3-1 vote against war.

And the rest of the people in the fleet weren't pro-war either, but rather pro-survival.

But like I said. ME2 was a total waste. They should have just left the Heretic faction out of it, and gone straight from ME1 > ME3 for all the good ME2 did plot-wise.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

But Gerrel was one admiral. Xen didn't want war. She called the trial a sham for Gerrel and "his stupid war". She called Koris a suit-wetter, granted. Still, she was not pro-war. Koris was anti-war. Ra'an was neutral and if you didn't turn over that evidence she was anti-war. So you had a 3-1 vote against war.

And the rest of the people in the fleet weren't pro-war either, but rather pro-survival.

But like I said. ME2 was a total waste. They should have just left the Heretic faction out of it, and gone straight from ME1 > ME3 for all the good ME2 did plot-wise.

The point was the Quarians were fully aware of heretics vs Geth.  It defies logic that the information was no shared.

And Xen in ME2 states clearly in an email that she found Rael's knowledge and intends to use it to build the largest synthetic army in the galaxy.  So in context, she thinks Gherel's war is stupid because he wants to kill the Geth.  She wants to go to war so that she can control and enslave the Geth.  That is the only way she can get her synthetic army ie by going to war with the aim of ultimately enslaving the Geth.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

For the love of God, can we please keep Hitler out of this thread. I know a day without Hitler is like a day without sunshine, but please, arguments using the reductum ad Hitlerum are too much.

So, the Alliance kept Shepard's report about there being two Geth factions: Heretic and non-Heretic classified. And that it was the Heretics that attacked the Citadel, and Shepard while using Cerberus destroyed the Heretic base with Legion, one of the non-Heretic Geth in order to fight the Collectors and gain their support in fighting the Reapers or "Old Machines." Great. Just f****** great. Don't tell anyone in the galaxy that the Geth on Rannoch and the in the other parts of the Veil are opposing the Reapers: don't tell the Council, don't tell anyone. classified.

Certain parts of it could have been declassified, like: The Geth in the Veil are a different faction than the ones that attacked the Citadel. The faction that attacked the Citadel was eliminated by Shepard and a team using Cerberus resources. Then this word could go out - The Geth in the Veil are a different faction than the ones that attacked the Citadel. Do not attack the Geth. Leave them alone. The full report goes to the highest governmental levels including the Quarians -- yes, including the stuff about they'll help against the reapers and don't start a war with them.

And tell the council they will help against the reapers (classified), but declassify the rest.

They classified the entire thing because the Alliance denied the Reaper threat. Basic dumb ass writing 101 -- box the hero in by putting them in an impossible situation for the last installment of the trilogy.

Step 2: Turn the Geth into a bunch of dumb asses by having them sit and take their bloody time constructing their megastructure. They've only had 300 years. Yet let them sit and hold onto Rannoch that they don't even need just for the sole purpose of aggravating the Quarians who need the planet. Thanks Mac. Mac didn't know what to do with the megastructure. That's the bottom line. It was another story line that was never followed through. ME2 was a waste of time.

Then the next step -- turn the Quarians into a bunch of dumb asses by having them go to war. Well they were boxed in now. Their live ships have to be right up with their heavy fleet. It's Battlestar Galactica, except they need a certain type of planet to live on. Maybe it'll take 300 years for the reapers to get around to finding them, but that's 300 more years.

All for one and everyone for themselves! More quality writing! Shepard to the rescue herding cats. I swear that's what it felt like: herding cats. Put everything on Shepard's shoulders. If Mac wanted a PTSD Shepard at the end of the game it would have been 5000 mg of fukitol, just to be sure. The harvest continues.

Well, if Mac knew what to do with the megastructure, we wouldn't have had to choose the color of explosions on our screen at the end of the game.

Yes, Legion betrayed his character. It wasn't the character's fault. It was the writer's.

Actually, the offical reason Shepard's interrogation was classified is "Information unverifiable due to possible Cerberus Minipulation and ties. Inadmissible as evidence." <_<

Oh, yeah, nobody needs to know about this! Just file that away, I'm sure it won't mater later on.
Seriously, what the HELL were the Alliance Brass thinking? Unverifiable or not, the very possibility that the geth had a faction split could be useful for a lot of people.

[Stormcutter]

I have a few problems with the Geth/Heretic split. First, that nearly 1/10 Geth programs joined the Heretic's. That's pretty scary to see, but I suppose understandable given Geth history.

My main issue is that the Geth let them leave with the alien deathbot. They had to understand what the Reapers wanted for the Galaxy and they let them go. If not for Shepard, the galaxy would have been effectively harvested by the end of the timeline of ME1. They very nearly wiped out all life.

If a similiar number of humans or asari had decided on doing the same thing, they certainly wouldn't have been given ships and platforms and told to go on their merry way. I'm not sure if this shows the Geth's naivete, apathy or a terrible mixture of both.