826 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

Random Jerkface wrote...

The problem with that argument is that it ignores the fact that the events of the plot were crafted with purpose. The writers chose to take the geth in the opposite direction for no other reasons than to provide flimsy justification for the Catalyst's rambling and to introduce a very tired narrative about individuality and what it means to be "alive."

No, that wasn't it at all. It was meant to show the desperation of war and how even the most idealistic people (such as an enlightened race of machines) can nevertheless be forced into the arms of pragmatism by the harsh realities of armed conflict.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 mai 2013 - 06:31 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

Really.

Because there is nothing else in the game that supports that interpretation at all, whereas the conflict between the quarians and geth is not only explicitly called forward as "proof" of the fundamental, metaphysical "difference" between synthetics and organics, but also used to substantiate the notion that the two are unable to ever coexist.

If it were about "the betrayal of ideals," the conflict would be centred on the geth and how they wrestle with the extremes of self-determination and self-preservation. Those would be the two opposing forces in the arc, not trife nonsense about anti-synthetic extermination, organic aggression, individuality, and being "truly" alive. Those are not elements of ideological inner (or intra) conflict; they are entirely external forces. A narrative like the one you're describing would have to be heavily based in self-reflection (so to speak), and its fulcrum would be whether or not ro accept the reaper code in the first place. Instead, this decision is taken entirely off-screen and was relegated to a mere plot point. A plot point is not a theme. Neither is the justification for that plot point. Just because the geth abandoned their deontological philosophy does not mean that that abandonment was a thematic exploration. It could have been, and would have been far more interesting, but it wasn't.

And even if it were, it wouldn't excuse how poorly written the arc is.

Or that it still undermines the geth's previously established characterisation.

[NeonFlux117]

I actually think Rannoch was one of the best parts of the game. Along with Citadel DLC and the krogan arc as the best content in the game.

However.... The more I think about the more I do agree with the op about the charcter of Legion in ME2 versus him in ME3. But most ME2 characters got pwnd by the ME3 writing staff. I mean come on, Jacob's arc. Miri's arc. Thane's arc. Why oh why, these characters wouldn't join Shepard on the normandy is beyond m?. But I guess it's just cause... You know, Artistic Integrity.

Same can be said of Legion. However, Legion in ME3 did move me to tears. Amazing final scene with him.

[Kataphrut94]

When will people realise that the moment you insert 'artistic integrity' into your argument, it looses all credibility?

I stand by my own statement about the geth, which is that they are too logical to die for their principles. Yes, they have shown touches of humanity here and there, such as the memorial cultivation of Rannoch or Legion's hero-worship of Shepard. In spite of all this, if accepting the Reaper upgrades offers them a slim chance of survival over not accepting it, that is what they will take. If you give a machine a scenario in which one action will lead to a 1% success rate while the other will lead to a 0% success rate, it will always select the 1%.

Besides, how is using the Reapers' gifts against them (which they'd been doing anyway via the mass relays) any different from using the heretic virus to rewrite them in Mass Effect 2? Legion never at any point suggests that doing so would violate their principles, despite the fact that it's operating on the exact same logic as using the Reaper code upgrade. This indicates that either the fanbase is wrong about Legion's ME2 characterisation conflicting with his ME3 characterisation, or that Chris L'Etoille is just as fallible a writer as John Dombrow. I'll leave it up to them to decide which is which.

Modifié par Kataphrut94, 10 mai 2013 - 10:12 .

[KaiserShep]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

I actually think Rannoch was one of the best parts of the game. Along with Citadel DLC and the krogan arc as the best content in the game.

However.... The more I think about the more I do agree with the op about the charcter of Legion in ME2 versus him in ME3. But most ME2 characters got pwnd by the ME3 writing staff. I mean come on, Jacob's arc. Miri's arc. Thane's arc. Why oh why, these characters wouldn't join Shepard on the normandy is beyond m?. But I guess it's just cause... You know, Artistic Integrity.

Same can be said of Legion. However, Legion in ME3 did move me to tears. Amazing final scene with him.

Thane's reason for not coming back to the Normandy seemed sensible enough, given what we know about him since ME2. I was fine with Jacob not coming back, though Kasumi did say he would've lured her back in.

[shodiswe]

I trust Legions upload and Legion a whole lot more than the coding and programming that been forcefully twisted, manipulated by a reaper.
Legion is probably a littlebit like a backup, untouched by the reapers but evolved and modified by Legions free will.
It will also help us fight the reapers, just like Thanix cannons..

[Megaton_Hope]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Why oh why, these characters wouldn't join Shepard on the normandy is beyond m?. But I guess it's just cause... You know, Artistic Integrity.

The same reason Wrex, Kaidan and Ashley don't in ME2.

Might. Be. Dead.

The voice actors (and other assorted content producers) would have to be paid to record all the variations of interaction between characters that the player might never encounter. In the case of one or the other survivor, definitely wouldn't see. It'd be a lot of effort going into something basically wasted.

[Jadebaby]

It's because the guy who wrote him in ME2 left...

[PsyrenY]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Because there is nothing else in the game that supports that interpretation at all, whereas the conflict between the quarians and geth is not only explicitly called forward as "proof" of the fundamental, metaphysical "difference" between synthetics and organics

It is proof. See my other thread on how the war really began.

And of course there are other things that support that interpretation; the desperation of the war is felt all through the game. The Turians forcing the Salarians to help undo the genophage.  The Batarians cooperating willingly with the butcher that wiped out a whole colony, a hated human at that. Admiral Hackett not only willing, but eager to work alongside Aria's mercenary scum. The Asari risking not one, but two of their darkest secrets being known to the galaxy at large. The entirety of Leviathan is borne of desperation. It's everywhere, and everybody is putting idealism on the back burner, or at least demoting it to second place.

Random Jerkface wrote...

Or that it still undermines the geth's previously established characterisation.

Of course it undermines their previous characterization. The problem is that you folks just haven't grasped how quickly a synthetic's mind can change.

"I require only one occurrence to adapt to a new concept" - EDI.
"It would for organics. We communicate at the speed of light." - Legion.
"There was no warning, no reason given when they turned on us." - Leviathan.

That is part of the danger inherent to working with them. They are the true aliens of the series, moreso than any Turian or Elcor. The actual aliens aren't alien at all - they're friends, lovers, working stiffs. Only the synthetics can approach being truly ineffable.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 mai 2013 - 12:02 .

[nos_astra]

KingZayd wrote...

Desperate times.

The Dyson sphere was destroyed, and the Geth had lost a lot of intelligence.

As long as LEGION is reasonably intelligent as a collective mind of only 1,183 geth, separated from the Geth Concensus, I don't buy this.

[KingZayd]

klarabella wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Desperate times.

The Dyson sphere was destroyed, and the Geth had lost a lot of intelligence.

As long as LEGION is reasonably intelligent as a collective mind of only 1,183 geth, separated from the Geth Concensus, I don't buy this.

And how many Geth were lost?  That should give you an idea of how much intelligence the Geth lost. Do you have any evidence that Legion would be able to rebuild the dyson sphere before the Reapers wiped them out?

[Morlath]

The Reaper code advanced the Geth intelligence to allow for each unit to be its own identity. The Reaper code also opened a door for the transmitter to control the Geth.

Transmitter destroyed, mind-control over. You're left with Geth as a truly individual species of AIs.

Xen wants to rule them as slaves (denies their intelligence), Gerrel targets the Geth dreadnought when Shepard and Tali are on board. While there's no 100% guarantee that Legion tells all of the truth, it's still more likely that he is compared to believing anything the extremist Quarian Admirals say/do.

And anyone who thinks the Quarians got changed to be "anti-Geth" in ME3, reply ME1 and listen to the passionate anger of Tali if Shepard sides with the Geth in her conversations and then talk to the Admirals in ME2 before you go to her father's ship.

The fact of the matter is that the people in charge of the entire Quarian future and future actions towards the Geth are extremly anti-Geth and want them either enslaved or wiped off the galactic map to the last unit.

Zealots.

[nos_astra]

KingZayd wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Desperate times.

The Dyson sphere was destroyed, and the Geth had lost a lot of intelligence.

As long as LEGION is reasonably intelligent as a collective mind of only 1,183 geth, separated from the Geth Concensus, I don't buy this.

And how many Geth were lost?  That should give you an idea of how much intelligence the Geth lost. Do you have any evidence that Legion would be able to rebuild the dyson sphere before the Reapers wiped them out?

If the quarians (a people of rundown space vagabonds) could destroy their megastructure so can the Reapers. 

More intelligence still turned them into helpless babies against the quarians, desperate for the Reaper's support.

Yet LEGION works fine as a consensus of only a few geth programs.
And the "baby geth" almost wiped out their creators without additional intelligence.

It doesn't add up of you think about it.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 mai 2013 - 01:16 .

[KingZayd]

klarabella wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Desperate times.

The Dyson sphere was destroyed, and the Geth had lost a lot of intelligence.

As long as LEGION is reasonably intelligent as a collective mind of only 1,183 geth, separated from the Geth Concensus, I don't buy this.

And how many Geth were lost?  That should give you an idea of how much intelligence the Geth lost. Do you have any evidence that Legion would be able to rebuild the dyson sphere before the Reapers wiped them out?

If the quarians (a people of rundown space vagabonds) could destroy their megastructure so can the Reapers. 

More intelligence still turned them into helpless babies against the quarians. 

Yet LEGION works fine as a consensus of only a few geth programs.
And the "baby geth" almost wiped out their creators without additional intelligence.

It doesn't add up of you think about it.

The megastructure wasn't complete. If it had been, the Quarians probably wouldn't have had it so easy, and they'd be able to put up a bigger fight against the Reapers.

Also, the Quarians have a pretty strong millitary for a bunch of "space vagabonds"

Modifié par KingZayd, 10 mai 2013 - 01:18 .

[Argentoid]

"Every point of view is useful, even those that are wrong - if we can judge why a wrong view was accepted."

[Wayning_Star]

Yeah, legion probably shouldn't of included humans in it's frame of reference. They're too obsessed with their 'stuff'.. more important than survival for sure...

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Yeah, legion probably shouldn't of included humans in it's frame of reference. They're too obsessed with their 'stuff'.. more important than survival for sure...  

hmm?

Modifié par KingZayd, 10 mai 2013 - 01:29 .

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Yeah, legion probably shouldn't of included humans in it's frame of reference. They're too obsessed with their 'stuff'.. more important than survival for sure...  

hmm?

'stuff' meaning control, of one form or another, like Leviathan, only different. (maybe)

[remydat]

DarkNova50 wrote...

I was speaking to that situation specifically, not trying to refute the saying altogether. Besides, while the Allies and the Soviets didn't exactly see eye to eye, they both knew the other side wasn't planning a global genocide.

Organics have been trying to perpetrate a global genocide on the Geth since the moment they were born.  So why do you expect the Geth to care about a global genocide against organics?  Did anyone lift a finger when the Geth were being killed?

And people argued this point so I will say it again.  Mordin opposed Maelon's data to the point he wanted to kill him in ME2. In ME3, he admits that despite opposing that data, not using it to help Eve and the Krogan (she dies without it) would be even more irresponsible.

Legion opposes the Reapers aid in ME2. In ME3, he is forced to use it by the other Geth and after being forced sees the value in it with respect to helping them become fully evolved and also it is the only thing that convinces the Quarians to stop trying to kill them and choosing peace.

So was Mordin wrong?  If not, why is Legion?  Because he is synthetic and not allowed to arrive at the same conclusion that Mordin did?

[nos_astra]

KingZayd wrote...
The megastructure wasn't complete. If it had been, the Quarians probably wouldn't have had it so easy, and they'd be able to put up a bigger fight against the Reapers.

Also, the Quarians have a pretty strong millitary for a bunch of "space vagabonds".

So, did the megastructure already add to their intelligence or did it not? Or did they just lose programs? 
Was it necessary for the geth to network or merely a lot more efficient? Are geth are significantly less intelligent now? Did they lose their additional intelligence or base intelligence? Even if the latter is true, they'd still be a lot more intelligent than Legion (unless there were less than 1,183 non-Legion geth programs left in the universe). 

What the hell were the geth thinking, uploading themselves into an unmovable structure that can't be protected from quarians (let alone Reaper forces)? At least apparently not before the upload was complete. SERIOUSLY!?

Rannoch really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's incredibly superficial.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 mai 2013 - 02:05 .

[David7204]

The quarians were able to take out the geth because of the weapon Xen had developed. It had little to do with the quarians having more brute force.

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...

The quarians were able to take out the geth because of the weapon Xen had developed. It had little to do with the quarians having more brute force.

Is Xen an AI, or what?

[David7204]

Xen? The quarian admiral? Who developed the weapon to render the geth helpless?

[Wayning_Star]

klarabella wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
The megastructure wasn't complete. If it had been, the Quarians probably wouldn't have had it so easy, and they'd be able to put up a bigger fight against the Reapers.

Also, the Quarians have a pretty strong millitary for a bunch of "space vagabonds".

So, did the megastructure already add to their intelligence or did it not? Or did they just lose programs? 
Was it necessary for the geth to network or merely a lot more efficient? Are geth are significantly less intelligent now? Did they lose their additional intelligence or base intelligence? Even if the latter is true, they'd still be a lot more intelligent than Legion (unless there were less than 1,183 non-Legion geth programs left in the universe). 

What the hell did the geth think uploading themselves into an unmovable structure that can't be protected from quarians (let alone Reaper forces)? At least apparently not before the upload was complete. SERIOUSLY!?

Rannoch really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's incredibly superficial.

I've always chocked that up to geth trying to understand/trust organics. They went with the reaps cause they were partly synthetic, so they thought they were 'special' in that regard, or less organic. They, thru Shepard ends up trusting humans more than their creators, or Quarians. All in all , the geth just seem to want their creators to chill out on the fear factor. Legion expresses this sentiment in the Rannoch quest.

[Wulfram]

If they were writing Rannoch to justify the Catalyst's stuff - or even to discuss the underlying theme - they could have done a whole lot better job about it.

The Dyson Sphere stuff was a great chance to examine the possiblity of Singularity and the potential threat this could pose, but that opportunity is ignored.