826 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...
Xen? The quarian admiral? Who developed the weapon to render the geth helpless?

Exactly. The geth outsmarted by a quarian who quickly develops a gun that crushes the result of the geth's combined intelligence.

[remydat]

Do people think the Quarians just decided with Rael and Xen to create this weapon? They were most likely trying to find a way to defeat the Geth fro 300 years people. It took 300 years for Rael to finally begin to figure it out and then Xen finished it. Plenty of Quarian scientists likely tried and failed before.  For 300 years, the Quarians only goal was likely to try and find a way to kill the Geth.  For 300 years, the Geth's goal was to improve themselves and they did not give a sh*t about the Quarians or organics.

So OMG, the Geth couldn't figure out in 17 days what it took the Quarians 300 years to figure out. Really guys?  OIMG, the Geth didn't devote the past 300 years to figuring out ways to kill the Quarians.

Also, there are not enough mobile platforms to house the Geth. They have to be stored either on servers or Rannoch or the megastructure or servers on space stations most of which are in the most heavily defended part of Geth space. The megastcture is not just sitting there alone. There are likely Geth Dreadnoughts and the like protecting it. Further, it is around Tikkun itself which means it is at the Center of the system and thus means the only way to reach it is by getting by the entirety of the Geth fleet which until Xen's weapon would be sucide. So the megastructure is in fact the safest place in Geth space for it to be.

Modifié par remydat, 10 mai 2013 - 02:12 .

[David7204]

klarabella wrote...

David7204 wrote...
Xen? The quarian admiral? Who developed the weapon to render the geth helpless?

Exactly.
The geth outsmarted by a quarian who quickly develops a gun that
crushes the result of the geth's combined intelligence.

That's really dumb for quite a few reasons.

Modifié par David7204, 10 mai 2013 - 02:10 .

[Wayning_Star]

klarabella wrote...

David7204 wrote...
Xen? The quarian admiral? Who developed the weapon to render the geth helpless?

Exactly. The geth outsmarted by a quarian who quickly develops a gun that crushes the result of the geth's combined intelligence.

I think it were Tali's dad who contributes to that end. I doubt it were the ultimate tool tho, the geth are resourceful. That's why Shepard was needed to 'tip' the scales one way or the other, or both.

I worked for peace between them myself. I wanted them to work together against the reaper threat.(before I figured out exactly what that was..lol US.)

[nos_astra]

Wayning_Star wrote...
I've always chocked that up to geth trying to understand/trust organics.

That's as flimsy an excuse as everything else on Rannoch.

They risk their existence because of ... trust. What reason did they have to trust anyone?

Wanting to understand organics equals now risking their existence ... because the writers needed an excuse to make the geth work with the Reapers ... again.

Wayning_Star wrote...
They went with the reaps cause they were partly synthetic, so they thought they were 'special' in that regard, or less organic.

The Geth are AI. Are we playing the old game 2slap on a human flaw and be done with it"?

Wayning_Star wrote...They, thru Shepard ends up trusting humans more than their creators, or Quarians. All in all , the geth just seem to want their creators to chill out on the fear factor. Legion expresses this sentiment in the Rannoch quest.

Geth are morons.

[Wayning_Star]

remydat wrote...

Do people think the Quarians just decided with Rael and Xen to create this weapon? They were most likely trying to find a way to defeat the Geth fro 300 years people. It took 300 years for Rael to finally begin to figure it out and then Xen finished it. Plenty of Quarian scientists likely tried and failed before.

So OMG, the Geth couldn't figure out in 17 days what it took the Quarians 300 years to figure out. Really guys?

Also, there are not enough mobile platforms to house the Geth. They have to be stored either on servers or Rannoch or the megastructure or servers on space stations most of which are in the most heavily defended part of Geth space. The megastcture is not just sitting there alone. There are likely Geth Dreadnoughts and the like protecting it. Further, it is around Tikkun itself which means it is at the Center of the system and thus means the only way to reach it is by getting by the entirety of the Geth fleet which until Xen's weapon would be sucide. So the megastructure is in fact the safest place in Geth space for it to be.

I'm still pissed about them hiding the structure and so forth with a relay right there.. so much for the 'hidden' Geth home world/base.. grrrrr

[Wayning_Star]

klarabella wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
I've always chocked that up to geth trying to understand/trust organics.

That's as flimsy an excuse as everything else on Rannoch.

They risk their existence because of ... trust. What reason did they have to trust anyone?

Wanting to understand organics equals now risking their existence ... because the writers needed an excuse to make the geth work with the Reapers ... again.

Wayning_Star wrote...
They went with the reaps cause they were partly synthetic, so they thought they were 'special' in that regard, or less organic.

The Geth are AI. Are we playing the old game 2slap on a human flaw and be done with it"?

Wayning_Star wrote...They, thru Shepard ends up trusting humans more than their creators, or Quarians. All in all , the geth just seem to want their creators to chill out on the fear factor. Legion expresses this sentiment in the Rannoch quest.

Geth are morons.

like father like machines..lol

[nos_astra]

Wayning_Star wrote...
I think it were Tali's dad who contributes to that end. I doubt it were the ultimate tool tho, the geth are resourceful. That's why Shepard was needed to 'tip' the scales one way or the other, or both.

That doesn't change that 300 years after the Morning War the Geth Consensus still aren't smarter than individual quarian engineers.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 mai 2013 - 02:16 .

[David7204]

I don't think Legion ever says a thing about the Dyson structure itself being hidden.

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

David7204 wrote...
Xen? The quarian admiral? Who developed the weapon to render the geth helpless?

Exactly.
The geth outsmarted by a quarian who quickly develops a gun that
crushes the result of the geth's combined intelligence.

That's really dumb for quite a few reasons.

That's really dumb for quite a few reasons.

[David7204]

klarabella wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
I think it were Tali's dad who contributes to that end. I doubt it were the ultimate tool tho, the geth are resourceful. That's why Shepard was needed to 'tip' the scales one way or the other, or both.

That doesn't change that 300 years after the Morning Wars and the Geth Consensus still aren't smarter than individual quarian engineers.

That's like saying that if one engineer builds a wall and another knocks it down, the latter engineer must be smarter.

Which is ridiculous.

[Wayning_Star]

David7204 wrote...

I don't think Legion ever says a thing about the Dyson structure itself being hidden.

hidden beyond the veil...


what veil? cannot have a mysterious veil with a relay in it now can you? They're 'charted'...

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
I think it were Tali's dad who contributes to that end. I doubt it were the ultimate tool tho, the geth are resourceful. That's why Shepard was needed to 'tip' the scales one way or the other, or both.

That doesn't change that 300 years after the Morning Wars and the Geth Consensus still aren't smarter than individual quarian engineers.

That's like saying that if one engineer builds a wall and another knocks it down, the latter engineer must be smarter.

Which is ridiculous.

Walls aren't supposed to evolve a lot faster than their creators.

Edit: Walls also don't have a networked intelligence that is supposed to be way smarter than individual organics.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 mai 2013 - 02:19 .

[remydat]

klarabella wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
I think it were Tali's dad who contributes to that end. I doubt it were the ultimate tool tho, the geth are resourceful. That's why Shepard was needed to 'tip' the scales one way or the other, or both.

That doesn't change that 300 years after the Morning War the Geth Consensus still aren't smarter than individual quarian engineers.

This makes no sense though.  The Quarians took 300 years to build this weapon.  Their goal for 300 years was to kill them. 

This would be like saying after 300 years of failed attempts a group created a weapon.  Albert Einstein couldn't figure out how to defeat it in 17 days while also being under attack and being exterminated.  Guess it means Albert Einstein is dumb then.

Of course not, Albert Einstein didn't have 300 years to work on it and now has 17 days to solve it while also being shot it.  It is a bogus comparison.

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...
This makes no sense though.  The Quarians took 300 years to build this weapon.  Their goal for 300 years was to kill them.

Source? 

Because that's not what I got from that storyline: The quarians single-mindedly developed a especially special super weapon that would in an instant destroy 300 years of work and that the geth couldn't possibly conceive of despite their being AIs who would naturally evolve much quicker and therefore reach a higher technological level than their own creators who spend the last 300 years trying to survive with extremely limited ressources.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 mai 2013 - 02:58 .

[T-Raks]

No, you are not. ME2 Legion would've accepted Shepard's decision not to upload the Reaper code.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Optimystic_X wrote...

It is proof. See my other thread on how the war really began.

Yo, what? Forreal?

(I actually did, and there is still nothing at all that supports the idea that the theme is idealism versus pragmatism and not synthetics versus organics.)

And of course there are other things that support that interpretation; the desperation of the war is felt all through the game.

I'm going to have to stop you right there, because mood and theme are not the same thing. A tone is not a theme, and again, neither are plot points, though they both contribute to developing one. You haven't actually made an argument against anything I've said. Your logic can essentially be summarised as, "because the characters committed acts of desperation, the theme is therefore 'desperation.'" I could easily say in the same vein that, "because Shepard and human squad regularly have to take human life, the theme is the DDE and juggling conventional morality with a job that requires the killing of other humans." Or "because Shepard died and was resurrected against her will and augmented without her permission, ME2's themes are spirituality, identity, and transhumanism/bodily autonomy, and how those things shape what it means to be human."

Except they're not.

And baller as that sh*t would have been, the writers didn't come anywhere close to including any of it in the narrative. A theme is a deliberate thing. In order for any plot event to have thematic meaning, the conflict that arises from that event has to centre around the navigation of two (or more) conflicting ideas. To put it another way, a theme is first and foremost a message conveyed to the audience—a message conveyed by the character(s') struggling with opposing ideologies and the manner in which that struggle is resolved. E.g. It's the difference between a soldier story in which the character is constantly tortured by his conscience and experiences negative consequences for his actions up until he dies miserably (i.e. killing is wrong, no matter the reason), and a soldier story in which the character is constantly tortured by his conscience and experiences mixed consequences for his actions up until he dies "heroically" (i.e. killing is bad but can be morally justified and even noble). A theme is a judgement. "Desperate" is not a theme. "Desperation" is not a theme. It isn't even a complete thematic thought.

And I would also add that "desperation" you claim is felt "all throughout the game" is entirely subjective, because there is nan a moment I felt desperation except when talking to the Catalyst, and that is not the desperation you are looking for.

Of course it undermines their previous characterization.

And without sufficient exploration of that subversion, it's just bad writing. Not only is the exploration insufficient, it's non-existent. Legion literally said the geth would die before accepting the "gifts of the old machines," in large part because they would already consider that a death of sorts. So the question then becomes why the change was forced into the narrative to begin with. You could give reasons for the geth doing what they did from now until the end of time, but that does not answer salient questions about the meaning behind their actions' inclusion, namely what the f*ck BioWare was trying to say about qualia in AI, legitimacy of other cultures, and the worth of self-determination. Unless you believe they were purposely trying to convey ideological and racial/cultural nihilism (and all evidence suggests they weren't) and general Darwinist cynicism, there is literally no reason for them to have undermined the geth's characterisation.

Pragmatism is not sh*t new. It isn't an "edgy" or particularly groundbreaking trope (though nor is rote idealism), and being the path of least resistance, it also is completely f*cking boring. The reason why the geth's stance in ME2 was so interesting and unique is that deontological approaches are unexpected in AI. What's more, because the approach wasn't purely logical, the audience had to challenge its own ideas about self-determination and identity instead falling into thoughtless, familiar paradigms about how robots should act and think. By all our previous experiences and maybe personal beliefs, existing physically was more important than metaphysical identities, and being the "logical" conclusion, the argument that there is no meaningful distinction between the two is something entirely fresh. It was very, very good exactly because it had to convince us, turn us away from what some might consider "hard logic" at that. Whether the audience actually agreed or not is immaterial, because it literally forced us to do exactly what Legion was preaching about: consider a perspective that is not our own, and accept it as valuable whether we understand and agree with it or not. I'm not even joking when I say it's probably the most ingenius way to reinforce and deliver a theme ever (especially tailored for the video game medium), definitely the best piece of writing to come out of the ME series, and one of the better pieces I've seen in video games in general.

The writers deciding to destroy that wasn't a calculated decision. It was the result of a changed staff and attempting to force characters into pre-designed plots with little regard for whether this made sense or not. Basically it was something purely accidental that they stepped in on their way to deliver some bargain bin sci-fi pinnochio bullsh*t. The end result was some confused nonsense drowned in melodrama.

The problem is that you folks just haven't grasped how quickly a synthetic's mind can change.

And your problem is that you haven't grasped that every event of the story is constructed by the writer and therefore every construction needs to be meaningful. I feel like there's a disconnect in what we're talking about here. You're analysing the events of the story and how they can be justified in-universe, whereas I am having a meta-discussion (or trying to) of what decisions the writers decided to take and how those decisions affect the meaning of the narrative.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 10 mai 2013 - 03:35 .

[justafan]

ME2 Difference between Heretics and Orthodox Geth: Heretics accepts the gifts of the Old Machine to speed up advancement, Orthodox Geth build their own future

ME3 Difference between Heretics and Orthodox Geth: ?

By ME3, all Geth have become heretics in their views towards achieving progress.

[shodiswe]

justafan wrote...

ME2 Difference between Heretics and Orthodox Geth: Heretics accepts the gifts of the Old Machine to speed up advancement, Orthodox Geth build their own future

ME3 Difference between Heretics and Orthodox Geth: ?

By ME3, all Geth have become heretics in their views towards achieving progress.

They arn't doing it for the sake of progress though.... It's more like a huge midflefinger for the Quarians who were trying to wipe out their species...

More like one last act of defiance before dying.. Like some who has been mortaly wounded by their arch nemesis... He calls them over for a last few words then hand them a live grenade that kills both of them. YIPPE KAYE MF ×BOOM×

Modifié par shodiswe, 10 mai 2013 - 05:18 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Why do people ignore that there were reasons for the geth to change? It bugs the hell out of people that so many people either dismiss or ignore the events of the story to justify their hate for a change. It also seems to imply that characters can never undergo changes at all and must forever be stuck in a stagnate character development limbo to appease fans.

[Megaton_Hope]

David7204 wrote...

I don't think Legion ever says a thing about the Dyson structure itself being hidden.

Wasn't, it's this "Bubble" of satellites around Rannoch's star. The one that got all blowed up.

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

David7204 wrote...
Xen? The quarian admiral? Who developed the weapon to render the geth helpless?

Exactly.
The geth outsmarted by a quarian who quickly develops a gun that
crushes the result of the geth's combined intelligence.

That's really dumb for quite a few reasons.

\\

Have you noticed you really like calling people dumb?

[PsyrenY]

klarabella wrote...

As long as LEGION is reasonably intelligent as a collective mind of only 1,183 geth, separated from the Geth Concensus, I don't buy this.

Honestly, I was always under the impression that Legion didn't agree with the rest of the consensus on the Reaper issue. So they strapped him into the dreadnought as a signal booster and clamped him in to keep him from escaping. If he was there voluntarily, why did they string him up so he couldn't leave? Why did he ask Shepard for help?

David7204 wrote...


That's like saying that if one engineer builds a wall and another knocks it down, the latter engineer must be smarter.

Which is ridiculous.

This. Tali literally tells you how the weapon works - it basically floods their networks with static junk. Their superior intelligence is moot because without the network, they can't use it.

You might be a master painter, but your deft brushstrokes mean nothing if someone grabs a roller and smears your canvas.

[CronoDragoon]

While I don't like that EDI suggests Legion was only alive post-individualization, I also have no problem with Legion deciding to use the Reaper code to individualize his race. It might run counter to his stance in ME2 not to accept Reaper guidance, but Legion has always been a walking contradiction anyway, insisting on the undesirability of experience differentiating individuals while melding a piece of N7 armor onto himself.