826 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

T-Raks wrote...

No, you are not. ME2 Legion would've accepted Shepard's decision not to upload the Reaper code.

The Geth are dead without the upload.  The Quarians dont let them live if they think they can win.

[remydat]

klarabella wrote...

remydat wrote...
This makes no sense though.  The Quarians took 300 years to build this weapon.  Their goal for 300 years was to kill them.

Source? 

Because that's not what I got from that storyline: The quarians single-mindedly developed a especially special super weapon that would in an instant destroy 300 years of work and that the geth couldn't possibly conceive of despite their being AIs who would naturally evolve much quicker and therefore reach a higher technological level than their own creators who spend the last 300 years trying to survive with extremely limited ressources.

Xen is the product of a race that has evoled over millions of years.  The Geth are 300 years old.  Do the math.

Further pretty sure other Quarians have tried over 300 years to figure out how to defeat the Geth or in the 300 years since the MW you think Rael and Xen were the only two that tried?  They just happened to be the ones that succeeded.  The geth dis not expend any effort trying to think of ways to kill the Quarians.  So a smart person spends their time developing a weapon.  A smarter person spends their time working on clean energy.  Are you saying clean energy dude is dumb because he cant figure out in 17 days what it took weapon dudes people hundreds of years to figure out?

Modifié par remydat, 10 mai 2013 - 06:41 .

[remydat]

Again why is Mordin allowed to use Maelons data when he disagrees with it to save the Krogan but Legion can use the RC when it is the only thing that stops the Quarian extermination of the Geth?

[The Night Mammoth]

Mordin never disagreed with saving or using the data, he's pragmatic about knowledge in that way. The geth believed in self-determination, and whilst I think it's really annoying that BioWare chose to completely simplify them from a unique outlook on their own existence in the galaxy to Pinocchio stereotypes, it's not exactly contradictory if the geth decide for themselves that it's what they want. I don't know if that's true, because at the time the geth weren't active and it was Legion who decided what to do with the Reaper code.

[remydat]

Mordin wanted to kill Maelon because he considered the experiments barbaric. You have to convince him to save it.  His default position is that it is something he would never do.  Never.

And the Geth are dead without the upload. The Quarians kill them even when they try to flee. So you are expecting Legion to hold onto some misguide principle at the expense of billions of Geth. Would you let billions of humans die because you said something during a time their lives were not in danger and now want to stick to your guns?

Modifié par remydat, 10 mai 2013 - 07:07 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Because of Maelon's barbaric methods, yes, but if you convince him not to just destroy the data he agrees that it was the right thing to do, in ME2 and afterward when the genophage needs curing.

The reality and logic of the geth's situation isn't what concerns me though, it's the direction the writers took, and their intent behind the events. I don't like the direction they took, and that concerns the whole Rannoch arc, in comparison to what the geth were like in the previous game.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 10 mai 2013 - 07:47 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

thehomeworld wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

One program trojan horse'd with Reaper tech. When reaper tech has been shown time and time again to corrupt everything it touches. While shutting off forever the ability for those programs to find their own path to a future, as ME2 Legion wanted.

EDI has Reaper tech incorporated into her programming and was never corrupted by it.

BW never botherd to fallow the route with her I could make the case that she being made of reaper tech was part of TIMs plan to over throw the reapers in a way that makes TIM on top and Humanity the victors of the war but BW didn't do this they rewrote it make him indoctrinated to fit the new version. Its not that she couldn't corrupt the crew its that BW deemed she shouldn't becasue the fans would riot.

The fact remains that EDI is an example of an AI who can apparently use Reaper tech without it compromising her decision-making process or otherwise making her a risk to those she claims as allies. If she can avoid that happening, then presumably the geth can too.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Because of Maelon's barbaric methods, yes, but if you convince him not to just destroy the data he agrees that it was the right thing to do, in ME2 and afterward when the genophage needs curing.

The reality and logic of the geth's situation isn't what concerns me though, it's the direction the writers took, and their intent behind the events. I don't like the direction they took, and that concerns the whole Rannoch arc, in comparison to what the geth were like in the previous game.

So your not even arguing about what the geth's story actually was, bur arguing the metaphysically meaning of the authors intent, which might not even be a thing and we have no way of actually proving or productivly debating?

[Wayning_Star]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

thehomeworld wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

One program trojan horse'd with Reaper tech. When reaper tech has been shown time and time again to corrupt everything it touches. While shutting off forever the ability for those programs to find their own path to a future, as ME2 Legion wanted.

EDI has Reaper tech incorporated into her programming and was never corrupted by it.

BW never botherd to fallow the route with her I could make the case that she being made of reaper tech was part of TIMs plan to over throw the reapers in a way that makes TIM on top and Humanity the victors of the war but BW didn't do this they rewrote it make him indoctrinated to fit the new version. Its not that she couldn't corrupt the crew its that BW deemed she shouldn't becasue the fans would riot.

The fact remains that EDI is an example of an AI who can apparently use Reaper tech without it compromising her decision-making process or otherwise making her a risk to those she claims as allies. If she can avoid that happening, then presumably the geth can too.

Edi was pretty cranky on the Moon when her 'self' was realized and was seeming imprisoned/slaved out..like Geth to Quarians?

[Omega Torsk]

No, you're not. Legion became an incredible hypocrite with that move. But truly, the Rannoch arc needed more work...

[Kataphrut94]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why do people ignore that there were reasons for the geth to change? It bugs the hell out of people that so many people either dismiss or ignore the events of the story to justify their hate for a change. It also seems to imply that characters can never undergo changes at all and must forever be stuck in a stagnate character development limbo to appease fans.

I would love to be proven wrong when I say that most of the geth hate on this board is a product of resentful bitterness over the Destroy ending. The statements popping up on this thread haven't left me with much optimism.

OP: How is using the Reaper-made upgrades to their own ends any different from using the Reaper-made heretic virus or Reaper-made mass effect technology? I ask because the geth were perfectly happy about that when they did it in Mass Effect 2, which is supposedly the characterisation that got betrayed in Mass Effect 3. How is it that one is acceptable and the other is not?

[remydat]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Because of Maelon's barbaric methods, yes, but if you convince him not to just destroy the data he agrees that it was the right thing to do, in ME2 and afterward when the genophage needs curing.

The reality and logic of the geth's situation isn't what concerns me though, it's the direction the writers took, and their intent behind the events. I don't like the direction they took, and that concerns the whole Rannoch arc, in comparison to what the geth were like in the previous game.

And the point is Mordin reconsidered because Shep convinces him the value of the data in saving lives.  Legion makes the same call.

Not liking the choices made by the writer is a completely different issue.

[remydat]

Omega Torsk wrote...

No, you're not. Legion became an incredible hypocrite with that move. But truly, the Rannoch arc needed more work...

So it is hypocritical to change your mind when you species faces extinction?  Pretty sure Shep opposed cerberus in ME1 but there he was working with them in ME2.  But let me guess since he did not specifically say I oppose cerberus as he was killing them in ME1 we will just pretend that ME1 Shep didnt ultimately oppose what they stood for.

[Morlath]

remydat wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

No, you're not. Legion became an incredible hypocrite with that move. But truly, the Rannoch arc needed more work...

So it is hypocritical to change your mind when you species faces extinction?  Pretty sure Shep opposed cerberus in ME1 but there he was working with them in ME2.  But let me guess since he did not specifically say I oppose cerberus as he was killing them in ME1 we will just pretend that ME1 Shep didnt ultimately oppose what they stood for.

It's Legion. He's a synthetic and has a body so it's an immediate dislike for some people.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Morlath wrote...

remydat wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

No, you're not. Legion became an incredible hypocrite with that move. But truly, the Rannoch arc needed more work...

So it is hypocritical to change your mind when you species faces extinction?  Pretty sure Shep opposed cerberus in ME1 but there he was working with them in ME2.  But let me guess since he did not specifically say I oppose cerberus as he was killing them in ME1 we will just pretend that ME1 Shep didnt ultimately oppose what they stood for.

It's Legion. He's a synthetic and has a body so it's an immediate dislike for some people.

I find it ridiculous that a logic based race would rather self terminate than to change their opinion on a subject in light of new variables and possiblilities. Legion opposed reaper control of the geth until he found a way to keep their current state of being and be freed from the reapers, and only at that point. Previously, he seemed pretty ashamed at using the reapers code to keep himself immune, which itself bothers me a bit, until I see at the end that legion has been slowly changing the longer he's been seperated from the other geth, and so was becoming more organic in the process.

Though none of the other geth seem to have the same level of development that legion had. They still refer to themselves as it's or in the plural sense.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 10 mai 2013 - 10:54 .

[Shaftell]

I didn't even think twice about killing the Geth... Am I missing something here? It has REAPER CODE in it. Why is it so insistent in keeping the upgrades? The Geth would have lived if they decided to remain them old selves. Anything that has any affiliation with a Reaper, I destroy.

[Argolas]

Refuse is more popular than Synthesis. Submission is not preferable to extinction. Legion believed that in ME2 and betrayed it in ME3.

[Morlath]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I find it ridiculous that a logic based race would rather self terminate than to change their opinion on a subject in light of new variables and possiblilities. Legion opposed reaper control of the geth until he found a way to keep their current state of being and be freed from the reapers, and only at that point. Previously, he seemed pretty ashamed at using the reapers code to keep himself immune, which itself bothers me a bit, until I see at the end that legion has been slowly changing the longer he's been seperated from the other geth, and so was becoming more organic in the process.

Though none of the other geth seem to have the same level of development that legion had. They still refer to themselves as it's or in the plural sense.

Exactly. And so they would rather risk slavery than allow themselves to be killed. There's no logic in "better to die than be a slave", that's an emotional reaction based on a morality scale above where the Geth are.

I always took it that he was an miniature consensus island connected to the main Geth but also isolated enough that he (all 1,000 and whatever programs) were able to develop independently.

[remydat]

Morlath wrote...

Exactly. And so they would rather risk slavery than allow themselves to be killed. There's no logic in "better to die than be a slave", that's an emotional reaction based on a morality scale above where the Geth are.

I always took it that he was an miniature consensus island connected to the main Geth but also isolated enough that he (all 1,000 and whatever programs) were able to develop independently.

I don't think it is a morality scale above the Geth at all.  I am here today because my ancestors chose slavery rather than death against an enemy they could not defeat.  All these people talking about death over slavery can do so from the comfort of wherever they type because they are not the ones being asked to choose death. 

This whole death over slavery non-sense is stuff people can say when it is a video game.  In reality, the idiots that choose death over slavery had their entire ethnic group exterminated.  What did they die for?  So that some idealistic fool several hundred years later can toast to their sacrifice while ignoring the fact that no one of that ethnic group currently exists any more because of said sacrifice?

Sorry I am firmly with Darwin on this.  The object of the game is to survive not die in the hipes that someone will remember you stupidity and think it brave several hundred years later.

Modifié par remydat, 10 mai 2013 - 11:44 .

[remydat]

Shaftell wrote...

I didn't even think twice about killing the Geth... Am I missing something here? It has REAPER CODE in it. Why is it so insistent in keeping the upgrades? The Geth would have lived if they decided to remain them old selves. Anything that has any affiliation with a Reaper, I destroy.

This is factually inaccurate.  The Quarians exterminate the Geth if they do not have Reaper Code.  The game ensures this is the case.

Furthermore, EDI has Reaper tech.  Not only that, she has evolving Reaper Tech.  She has had it since the IFF mission.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Shaftell wrote...

I didn't even think twice about killing the Geth... Am I missing something here? It has REAPER CODE in it. Why is it so insistent in keeping the upgrades? The Geth would have lived if they decided to remain them old selves. Anything that has any affiliation with a Reaper, I destroy.

No. They woudln't. The quarians developed a program that flooded their consensus with static junk data, essentially they were making the geth have strokes remotely, before they engaged them in battle.

And the admirals, and every other quarian on the ship say for a handful, are all adament that all the geth must die. By not allowing the geth to use the code, the only thing that keeps their consensus from being compromised by the quarians weapon, the geth will be wiped out, utterly.

Your utopian theorizing doesn't really stop the fact that the geth have been defeated by the quarians and their only means of survival lie in adapting the reapers tech to help themselves.

[Cainhurst Crow]

remydat wrote...

Shaftell wrote...

I didn't even think twice about killing the Geth... Am I missing something here? It has REAPER CODE in it. Why is it so insistent in keeping the upgrades? The Geth would have lived if they decided to remain them old selves. Anything that has any affiliation with a Reaper, I destroy.

This is factually inaccurate.  The Quarians exterminate the Geth if they do not have Reaper Code.  The game ensures this is the case.

Furthermore, EDI has Reaper tech.  Not only that, she has evolving Reaper Tech.  She has had it since the IFF mission.

Shepard has reaper tech.

[Morlath]

remydat wrote...

I don't think it is a morality scale above the Geth at all.  I am here today because my ancestors chose slavery rather than death against an enemy they could not defeat.  All these people talking about death over slavery can do so from the comfort of wherever they type because they are not the ones being asked to choose death. 

But there were also some who didn't follow your ancestors' way. There is an instinct in some people to prefer death/fighting to the death over slavery even if the instinctive reaction tends towards living.

However I agree with you that people are too flippant in the "well they should have just taken death than being Reaper slaves" opinion (and yes, S.A.K., I'm adding you in that). Not many people can say they've had to choose between living a horrible existence and death.

This whole death over slavery non-sense is stuff people can say when it is a video game.  In reality, the idiots that choose death over slavery had their entire ethnic group exterminated.  What did they die for?  So that some idealistic fool several hundred years later can toast to their sacrifice while ignoring the fact that no one of that ethnic group currently exists any more because of said sacrifice?

Sorry I am firmly with Darwin on this.  The object of the game is to survive not die in the hipes that someone will remember you stupidity and think it brave several hundred years later.

Again, it's becomes sometimes some values are more important that life for people. People are willing to die for their freedom, for their sexuality, for their rights to be who they are and it's the same instinct that had races break out of the slavery bonds as what meant a lot died to avoid being put in them. But either way it takes nothing away from those who feel that it's better to live than die.

[remydat]

Morlath wrote...

But there were also some who didn't follow your ancestors' way. There is an instinct in some people to prefer death/fighting to the death over slavery even if the instinctive reaction tends towards living.

However I agree with you that people are too flippant in the "well they should have just taken death than being Reaper slaves" opinion (and yes, S.A.K., I'm adding you in that). Not many people can say they've had to choose between living a horrible existence and death.

Again, it's becomes sometimes some values are more important that life for people. People are willing to die for their freedom, for their sexuality, for their rights to be who they are and it's the same instinct that had races break out of the slavery bonds as what meant a lot died to avoid being put in them. But either way it takes nothing away from those who feel that it's better to live than die.

Oh I agree, some people do feel that way.  And most of them are forgotten because they died and their ethnic group died with them.  We are not talking about people choosing death when all that is at stake is their own death but their race lives on.  We are talking about choosing death when the end result is your entire species/ethnic group is erased from histroy FOREVER.   

I mean how many ethnic groups can we think of in which their entire group chose extinction?  I can't think of many most likely because their existence was lost to history because no one that cared about them survived to tell it or they are some minor footnote in the history of the group that exterminated them.

EDIT - The Israelites allegedly wiped out some ethnic groups in the Bible.  Although they were never offered the option of slavery as God wanted them eradicated completely and no one gives a d*mn about them now.  In fact, people actually by virtue of following Judaism and Christianity basically remember them as evil people that had to be punished for their sins because God said so.  That is their legacy because the only people live to tell it were their enemies.

Modifié par remydat, 11 mai 2013 - 12:32 .

[Morlath]

remydat wrote...

Oh I agree, some people do feel that way.  And most of them are forgotten because they died and their ethnic group died with them.  We are not talking about people choosing death when all that is at stake is their own death but their race lives on.  We are talking about choosing death when the end result is your entire species/ethnic group is erased from histroy FOREVER.   

Right. A single species does not turn around and say "yep, kill us now" but they will turn around and say "we'll do whatever we need to in order to keep on living"

The mentality that people want the Geth to have (sacrifice for the "greater good") is a personal one and it's insanity to ask an entire species not to do anything in its power to keep on living.