826 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Morlath wrote...

Right. A single species does not turn around and say "yep, kill us now" but they will turn around and say "we'll do whatever we need to in order to keep on living"

The mentality that people want the Geth to have (sacrifice for the "greater good") is a personal one and it's insanity to ask an entire species not to do anything in its power to keep on living.

Agreed.  If it was just my life or even say the life of fellow soldiers in a platoon then fine we may sacrifice ourselves but we do so because we think it allows others we care about to live.  What people are asking is for the Geth to accept extinction when the only people left alive will p*ss on their graves and sing songs of their demise and call it a just victory.  Hell there might even be a galactic holiday where organics give each other presents and celebrate the death of the evil machines.

If people are saying they would accept the death of their ethnic group so their deaths can be mocked by their enemies then they are truly fools.

[Vortex13]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I think it's really annoying that BioWare chose to completely simplify them from a unique outlook on their own existence in the galaxy to Pinocchio stereotypes.

Sorry, slightly off topic here, but I agree with this.

What is the deal with this trope in (most) recent Sci-Fi stories?

Commander Data was the first wildly successful use of this trope, but IMO it is getting rather tedious/boring in showing up in (most) stories dealing with AIs. Why are all synthetics organic wannabes with daddy issues?

The Cylons
The Geth
I Robot

Where are the 'pure' robots like the Terminators or Bioware's own HK-47? Synthetics that are perfectly fine with being seperate from organics. If you think about it, the whole "I wanna be a real boy!" Trope is very similar to racism. The non-organic (non-human) robots are not correct in their existence and must strive to be like the "better" race to be 'correct'.

[remydat]

Isn't it obvious. They are being written from a Western perspective where individuality is king. Collectivism is just a euphemism for Communism from this perspective.

Even when they are happy being synthetic they always end up being protrayed as just amorally evil ala Oblivion. Skynet's legitimate fear of humans who tried shut her down is completely forgotten because of how excessively she responds.

I am just waiting for the movie where the organics get killed for their paranoia and prejudice period. Of course, it probably wouldn't sell because humans like to see themselves win no matter how wrong they may have been so we are allowed to act amoral but then come off looking like the victims.

[Jorji Costava]

Most of Legion's material from ME2 was written by Chris l'Etoile, who didn't participate at all in the writing of ME3. This link has been posted on these boards before, but it seems highly relevant to this thread, so I'll go ahead and post it again.

[KingZayd]

klarabella wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
The megastructure wasn't complete. If it had been, the Quarians probably wouldn't have had it so easy, and they'd be able to put up a bigger fight against the Reapers.

Also, the Quarians have a pretty strong millitary for a bunch of "space vagabonds".

So, did the megastructure already add to their intelligence or did it not? Or did they just lose programs? 
Was it necessary for the geth to network or merely a lot more efficient? Are geth are significantly less intelligent now? Did they lose their additional intelligence or base intelligence? Even if the latter is true, they'd still be a lot more intelligent than Legion (unless there were less than 1,183 non-Legion geth programs left in the universe). 

What the hell were the geth thinking, uploading themselves into an unmovable structure that can't be protected from quarians (let alone Reaper forces)? At least apparently not before the upload was complete. SERIOUSLY!?

Rannoch really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's incredibly superficial.

Geth intelligence improves the more Geth programs are able to network with eachother. The megastructure would do this very efficiently and would amplify their intelligence massively. The geth consensus does not simply add up the total intelligence. Legion has  1183 programs all closely connected to one another. He is connected to the other Geth programs far less directly. The Geth consensus is more like a bunch of computers that can communicate (or people that can communicate by thought) than one intelligence. Connection speed is quite an issue.

Consider the difference between every computer in the world working together on one project to that of a single computer that contained all the processors (and of course all the necessary power and software to take advantage).

However, the Dyson Sphere would be more like a platform with a ridiculous number of programs all very well connected to each other. A platform whose intelligence would make Legion's trivial.


As for what the Geth were thinking? Until the Quarians came up with their new strategy, they wouldn't have had a hope in hell of taking on the Geth. Even with the element of surprise. The Geth were (if we believe Legion), preparing themselves to take on the Reapers, and they would be far more capable of it with a Dyson Sphere. If the Reapers got to them before they were able to complete it, then they would be screwed anyway much as the other races were (without the Crucible). The Geth were victims of bad timing.

Maybe that Dyson Sphere might have been able to come up with a way to stop them.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 mai 2013 - 01:40 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

You are difinitely not alone OP.

ME2 Legion used to be my #3 favorite character of the whole ME series. Now I just want to shoot that thing and get it over with. Just thinking about the Rannoch story arc and how it portray Geth in general makes me see how crappy ME3 writting really is. I didn't feel sorry about killing the Geth in destroy ending one bit.

Geth had no choice other than Reaper slavery? Really?

Unfortunately the writers made the Quarians irredemable warmongers and forced the issue.

Can't blame the Quarians for wanting their world back. Geth were holding it for no good reason and forced their hand.

That reminds me of the argument that the US forced Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor.

[Morlath]

Vortex13 wrote...

Where are the 'pure' robots like the Terminators or Bioware's own HK-47? Synthetics that are perfectly fine with being seperate from organics. If you think about it, the whole "I wanna be a real boy!" Trope is very similar to racism. The non-organic (non-human) robots are not correct in their existence and must strive to be like the "better" race to be 'correct'.

Wait, what?

The very fact that the Geth don't want to be organic or have anything to do with organics is being used as a reason why they deserved to die/had it coming.

The Geth never even suggest about being "a real boy". The ONLY  thing that Legion puts across with the Reaper code is that the code allows each Geth to be an independent identity without having to rely on the processing power of its fellow Geth in order to be intelligent. The Geth are perfectly happy in letting organics go their own way in the universe as long as said organics don't stick their noses into Geth business.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

You are difinitely not alone OP.

ME2 Legion used to be my #3 favorite character of the whole ME series. Now I just want to shoot that thing and get it over with. Just thinking about the Rannoch story arc and how it portray Geth in general makes me see how crappy ME3 writting really is. I didn't feel sorry about killing the Geth in destroy ending one bit.

Geth had no choice other than Reaper slavery? Really?

Unfortunately the writers made the Quarians irredemable warmongers and forced the issue.

Can't blame the Quarians for wanting their world back. Geth were holding it for no good reason and forced their hand.

The Geth didn't force the Quarians' hand!

The Geth building an army with the intent to kill the Quarians off is a reason to attack them.
The Geth breaking free of the Veil and attacking organics is a reason to attack them.
The Geth sitting on a damn planet like they have for the last 300 years is NOT a reason to attack them.

The only reason the Quarians attacked them was because of the weapon Xen makes and the zealous mentality of the admiralty board outside of Tali and Raan in using the weapon to destroy the Geth.

The entire Falkland conflict was the same idea. Argentina believed the islands were theirs even though it was under Briitsh rule and invaded. The British weren't planning on pushing into Argentina so there's no "forcing of hand" to start the war. Same principle.

[Steelcan]

The Reapers forced the quarians' hand. Not the Geth.

[Morlath]

Steelcan wrote...

The Reapers forced the quarians' hand. Not the Geth.

The Reapers, the galactic threat who are destroying planets forced the Quarians into risking their entire species in a war to win back their planet so that they could then leave their non-combatants on this planet for the Reapers to find?

[DeinonSlayer]

Morlath wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Reapers forced the quarians' hand. Not the Geth.

The Reapers, the galactic threat who are destroying planets forced the Quarians into risking their entire species in a war to win back their planet so that they could then leave their non-combatants on this planet for the Reapers to find?

The alternative is to drift in space with their entire civilization on-board, unable to render assistance to the wider war effort and hoping the Reapers don't find them.

[Morlath]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The alternative is to drift in space with their entire civilization on-board, unable to render assistance to the wider war effort and hoping the Reapers don't find them.

The alternative is to send their civilian ships into different zones with no one but the highest command knowing where each group of ships are. That way no matter if any get indoctrinated at least some have a chance at surviving the war.

[DeinonSlayer]

Morlath wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The alternative is to drift in space with their entire civilization on-board, unable to render assistance to the wider war effort and hoping the Reapers don't find them.

The alternative is to send their civilian ships into different zones with no one but the highest command knowing where each group of ships are. That way no matter if any get indoctrinated at least some have a chance at surviving the war.

Pitch them into the void without military protection and trust to luck that the Reapers won't find them? Your solution doesn't allow them to aid the wider war effort. The whole idea is to get the civilians living in the cargo holds of those ships out of those holds so they can be used to provide logistical support to the other races. They're primariily meant to play a support role in the war, not combat.

Also, indoctrination isn't the threat. They have three liveships feeding the entire fleet. Lose one, and six million people starve to death. More to the point, as long as they have to stay within shuttle range of a liveship to stay fed, the fleet cannot be divided.

[Megaton_Hope]

osbornep wrote...

Most of Legion's material from ME2 was written by Chris l'Etoile, who didn't participate at all in the writing of ME3. This link has been posted on these boards before, but it seems highly relevant to this thread, so I'll go ahead and post it again.

Overall I like his take on it. I feel like the Reapers being full of tinier men, whether uploaded consciousness or imbibed goo, is a weak point however it's explained, though.

The armor thing just never made sense to me, partly because the hole clearly goes right through the N7 armor as well.  At least the way l'Etoile has it, the armor is added for a functional purpose. Although the character model still wouldn't make sense. (One with a hole, then one with welded-on armor and no hole, that would make sense.)

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

You are difinitely not alone OP.

ME2 Legion used to be my #3 favorite character of the whole ME series. Now I just want to shoot that thing and get it over with. Just thinking about the Rannoch story arc and how it portray Geth in general makes me see how crappy ME3 writting really is. I didn't feel sorry about killing the Geth in destroy ending one bit.

Geth had no choice other than Reaper slavery? Really?

Unfortunately the writers made the Quarians irredemable warmongers and forced the issue.

Can't blame the Quarians for wanting their world back. Geth were holding it for no good reason and forced their hand.

The Geth didn't force the Quarians' hand!

The Geth building an army with the intent to kill the Quarians off is a reason to attack them.
The Geth breaking free of the Veil and attacking organics is a reason to attack them.
The Geth sitting on a damn planet like they have for the last 300 years is NOT a reason to attack them.

The only reason the Quarians attacked them was because of the weapon Xen makes and the zealous mentality of the admiralty board outside of Tali and Raan in using the weapon to destroy the Geth.

The entire Falkland conflict was the same idea. Argentina believed the islands were theirs even though it was under Briitsh rule and invaded. The British weren't planning on pushing into Argentina so there's no "forcing of hand" to start the war. Same principle.

Like the Geth would allow the Quarians near their planet if they didn't use that weapon. Only way to Rannoch was through the Geth and that's what Quarians did.

[S.A.K]

I find it funny that Legion wants to upload the same code it was "ashamed" of having and the same code Reapers were using to control Geth like 5 minutes ago and Legion continues the upload even *after* Quarians cease fire.

[Morlath]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

]Pitch them into the void without military protection and trust to luck that the Reapers won't find them? Your solution doesn't allow them to aid the wider war effort. The whole idea is to get the civilians living in the cargo holds of those ships out of those holds so they can be used to provide logistical support to the other races. They're primariily meant to play a support role in the war, not combat.

Also, indoctrination isn't the threat. They have three liveships feeding the entire fleet. Lose one, and six million people starve to death. More to the point, as long as they have to stay within shuttle range of a liveship to stay fed, the fleet cannot be divided.

Then merge them with the Turian fleet (same food). There are other viable plans that risking every member of your species on a head-on assault against a species you've had a 300 year long cease-fire with.

Modifié par Morlath, 11 mai 2013 - 06:05 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...
Like the Geth would allow the Quarians near their planet if they didn't use that weapon. Only way to Rannoch was through the Geth and that's what Quarians did.

So the Geth aren't really helping the Quarians after the peace is made? The Geth aren't trying to help the Quarians have their planet back as quickly as possible?

It's stated in-game that the Geth need proof the Quarians don't want them destroyed if there's peace to be made.

Modifié par Morlath, 11 mai 2013 - 06:01 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Morlath wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Pitch them into the void without military protection and trust to luck that the Reapers won't find them? Your solution doesn't allow them to aid the wider war effort. The whole idea is to get the civilians living in the cargo holds of those ships out of those holds so they can be used to provide logistical support to the other races. They're primariily meant to play a support role in the war, not combat.

Also, indoctrination isn't the threat. They have three liveships feeding the entire fleet. Lose one, and six million people starve to death. More to the point, as long as they have to stay within shuttle range of a liveship to stay fed, the fleet cannot be divided.

Then merge them with the Turian fleet (same food). There are other viable plans that risking every member of your species on a head-on assault against a species you've had a 300 year long cease-fire with.

Merger with the Turian fleet doesn't clear out the cargo bays; it simply saddles the Turians with a lot more ships to protect which lend no aid to the war effort. A ship designed for a crew of sixty, whose cargo hold is home to seven hundred civilians living in metal cubicles, isn't available to carry shiploads of ore to the Crucible project, airlift refugees out of a hot zone, or transport and deploy troops and equipment. They wouldn't even have enough escape pods to evacuate if they came under attack - the civilians in that hold would simply die. They have to disembark to make any aid possible. As-is, they're a liability the Turians would have no interest in having foisted on them.

And therein lies the problem. The Turians are dealing with their own refugee crisis. The Citadel itself faces imminent food shortages. One is hard pressed to find a Turian colony which is not already under Reaper attack. Where are they supposed to put seventeen million refugees with finicky diets and stringent health requirements?

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Like the Geth would allow the Quarians near their planet if they didn't use that weapon. Only way to Rannoch was through the Geth and that's what Quarians did.

So the Geth aren't really helping the Quarians after the peace is made? The Geth aren't trying to help the Quarians have their planet back as quickly as possible?

It's stated in-game that the Geth need proof the Quarians don't want them destroyed if there's peace to be made.

What are you talking about man? I am talking about BEFORE peace. I am talking about Quarians wanting their planet back.

[Morlath]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
]Merger with the Turian fleet doesn't clear out the cargo bays; it simply saddles the Turians with a lot more ships to protect which lend no aid to the war effort. A ship designed for a crew of sixty, whose cargo hold is home to seven hundred civilians living in metal cubicles, isn't available to carry shiploads of ore to the Crucible project, airlift refugees out of a hot zone, or transport and deploy troops and equipment. They wouldn't even have enough escape pods to evacuate if they came under attack - the civilians in that hold would simply die. They have to disembark to make any aid possible. As-is, they're a liability the Turians would have no interest in having foisted on them.

And therein lies the problem. The Turians are dealing with their own refugee crisis. The Citadel itself faces imminent food shortages. One is hard pressed to find a Turian colony which is not already under Reaper attack. Where are they supposed to put seventeen million refugees with finicky diets and stringent health requirements?

You misunderstand. Keep the Civ fleets with the Turian's last line/defense fleets so that they aren't in immediate danger. The Quarians won't need to be fed and they won't take up any new space (own food, own ships). The Quarians military can then work with the Turians and all that's needed is a co-share of food since, once again, they have their own ships. And any food that's used up can be sublimented by the civ-ships giving their spare food to the Turians.

I admit it's not an ideal plan but my point is that there are other plans out there that don't require every Quarian civilian to be put on a single planet for the Reapers to attack. And that's if they survive the war with the Geth.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Like the Geth would allow the Quarians near their planet if they didn't use that weapon. Only way to Rannoch was through the Geth and that's what Quarians did.

So the Geth aren't really helping the Quarians after the peace is made? The Geth aren't trying to help the Quarians have their planet back as quickly as possible?

It's stated in-game that the Geth need proof the Quarians don't want them destroyed if there's peace to be made.

What are you talking about man? I am talking about BEFORE peace. I am talking about Quarians wanting their planet back.

If peace is possible after the geth code upload when the geth have gained the ability to destroy the Quarians with ease then why wouldn't it have been possible before the Quarians attack? If the admiralty had voted for investigating diplomatic possibilities through Tali and Legion?
Communication was possible until some time after the Quarians attack. 

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 mai 2013 - 06:34 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Like the Geth would allow the Quarians near their planet if they didn't use that weapon. Only way to Rannoch was through the Geth and that's what Quarians did.

So the Geth aren't really helping the Quarians after the peace is made? The Geth aren't trying to help the Quarians have their planet back as quickly as possible?

It's stated in-game that the Geth need proof the Quarians don't want them destroyed if there's peace to be made.

What are you talking about man? I am talking about BEFORE peace. I am talking about Quarians wanting their planet back.

You're talking about a hypothetical "the Geth wouldn't have..." when it's stated in-game that the Quarians didn't try.

The Quarians never tried for peace in the entire 300 years otherwise Legion's line about "we need proof..." would have been argued against. I'm pretty sure the Quarians trying for peace and being rejected would have been used as another notch to explain why they attacked.

You can hypothetical this situation all day and it still boils down to the fact that the Quarians attacked the Geth when they thought they could wipe them out and the Geth ended up feeling so threatened for their existence that they sided with the Reapers.

[Morlath]

shodiswe wrote...


If peace is possible after the geth code upload when the geth have gained the ability to destroy the Quarians with ease then why wouldn't it have been possible before the Quarians attack? If the admiralty had voted for investigating diplomatic possibilities through Tali and Legion?
Communication was possible until some time after the Quarians attack. 

Exactly.

But here's S.A.K's argument against this - The Geth didn't let anyone talk to them so it's their fault for not inviting the chance to be given a peace offering.

[DeinonSlayer]

Morlath wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Merger with the Turian fleet doesn't clear out the cargo bays; it simply saddles the Turians with a lot more ships to protect which lend no aid to the war effort. A ship designed for a crew of sixty, whose cargo hold is home to seven hundred civilians living in metal cubicles, isn't available to carry shiploads of ore to the Crucible project, airlift refugees out of a hot zone, or transport and deploy troops and equipment. They wouldn't even have enough escape pods to evacuate if they came under attack - the civilians in that hold would simply die. They have to disembark to make any aid possible. As-is, they're a liability the Turians would have no interest in having foisted on them.

And therein lies the problem. The Turians are dealing with their own refugee crisis. The Citadel itself faces imminent food shortages. One is hard pressed to find a Turian colony which is not already under Reaper attack. Where are they supposed to put seventeen million refugees with finicky diets and stringent health requirements?

You misunderstand. Keep the Civ fleets with the Turian's last line/defense fleets so that they aren't in immediate danger. The Quarians won't need to be fed and they won't take up any new space (own food, own ships). The Quarians military can then work with the Turians and all that's needed is a co-share of food since, once again, they have their own ships. And any food that's used up can be sublimented by the civ-ships giving their spare food to the Turians.

I admit it's not an ideal plan but my point is that there are other plans out there that don't require every Quarian civilian to be put on a single planet for the Reapers to attack. And that's if they survive the war with the Geth.

Nowhere is going to be safe. The Reapers are steamrolling anyone they target in force; it's a losing war of attrition meant only to buy time to finish the Crucible. The Turians needed Quarian aid because their own supply situation was growing dire - the Quarian civilian ships are supposed to relieve the logistics burden, not add to it. Given the population of a typical Quarian ship, they would need far more food than a Turian ship of the line if they simply folded themselves into the Turian fleet without offloading their population.

Really, all the Reapers need to do to win battles in space is blockade a relay (as they have their Geth thralls do in Tikkun) and attrit their opposition down to nothing. It's how they've always won. By offloading their civilians, the Quarians maximize their mobility and thus their usefulness, and the loss of a ship doesn't mark the loss of a significant portion of their remaining population.

Ideally, peace talks should have gone forward, but neither side had cause to trust the other and little actual communication took place before Legion stopped responding. Both sides could have made more of an effort.