826 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Like the Geth would allow the Quarians near their planet if they didn't use that weapon. Only way to Rannoch was through the Geth and that's what Quarians did.

So the Geth aren't really helping the Quarians after the peace is made? The Geth aren't trying to help the Quarians have their planet back as quickly as possible?

It's stated in-game that the Geth need proof the Quarians don't want them destroyed if there's peace to be made.

What are you talking about man? I am talking about BEFORE peace. I am talking about Quarians wanting their planet back.

You're talking about a hypothetical "the Geth wouldn't have..." when it's stated in-game that the Quarians didn't try.

The Quarians never tried for peace in the entire 300 years otherwise Legion's line about "we need proof..." would have been argued against. I'm pretty sure the Quarians trying for peace and being rejected would have been used as another notch to explain why they attacked.

You can hypothetical this situation all day and it still boils down to the fact that the Quarians attacked the Geth when they thought they could wipe them out and the Geth ended up feeling so threatened for their existence that they sided with the Reapers.

Before the Quarian attack, Geth have destroyed every organic ship entering their space. So it's not hypothetical. I hope you are not suggesting Quarians send some ships on a suicide mission to find that out.

After peace both sides get what they want. Geth wanted peace and Quarians wanted their planet.

[shodiswe]

Morlath wrote...

shodiswe wrote...


If peace is possible after the geth code upload when the geth have gained the ability to destroy the Quarians with ease then why wouldn't it have been possible before the Quarians attack? If the admiralty had voted for investigating diplomatic possibilities through Tali and Legion?
Communication was possible until some time after the Quarians attack. 

Exactly.

But here's S.A.K's argument against this - The Geth didn't let anyone talk to them so it's their fault for not inviting the chance to be given a peace offering.

They clearly had an open channel to the Geth and they knew about it. The Quarians choose war not the Geth. Everything Legion said to Koris when you bring him on Talis loyalty mission turns out to be true.
When the Geth gained the power to destroy the Quarians they accepted the peace if the Quarians topped attacking.
That's actualy a very generous attitude from the Geth.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

shodiswe wrote...


If peace is possible after the geth code upload when the geth have gained the ability to destroy the Quarians with ease then why wouldn't it have been possible before the Quarians attack? If the admiralty had voted for investigating diplomatic possibilities through Tali and Legion?
Communication was possible until some time after the Quarians attack. 

Exactly.

But here's S.A.K's argument against this - The Geth didn't let anyone talk to them so it's their fault for not inviting the chance to be given a peace offering.

Geth only get the ability to destroy Quarians after Quarians cease fire because Legion finishes the upload after Garral stands down.
The next part works both ways. Legion was also in contact with Quarians through Tali and Quarians weren't blocking comms. So why didn't the Geth try for a truce since they were already loosing. I guess the answer is Legion didn't get along with the rest of the Geth very well.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Like the Geth would allow the Quarians near their planet if they didn't use that weapon. Only way to Rannoch was through the Geth and that's what Quarians did.

So the Geth aren't really helping the Quarians after the peace is made? The Geth aren't trying to help the Quarians have their planet back as quickly as possible?

It's stated in-game that the Geth need proof the Quarians don't want them destroyed if there's peace to be made.

What are you talking about man? I am talking about BEFORE peace. I am talking about Quarians wanting their planet back.

You're talking about a hypothetical "the Geth wouldn't have..." when it's stated in-game that the Quarians didn't try.

The Quarians never tried for peace in the entire 300 years otherwise Legion's line about "we need proof..." would have been argued against. I'm pretty sure the Quarians trying for peace and being rejected would have been used as another notch to explain why they attacked.

You can hypothetical this situation all day and it still boils down to the fact that the Quarians attacked the Geth when they thought they could wipe them out and the Geth ended up feeling so threatened for their existence that they sided with the Reapers.

Before the Quarian attack, Geth have destroyed every organic ship entering their space. So it's not hypothetical. I hope you are not suggesting Quarians send some ships on a suicide mission to find that out.

After peace both sides get what they want. Geth wanted peace and Quarians wanted their planet.

They don't have to send warships to innitiate contact. They can talk to Legion over the extranet just like Tali did. I haven't heard about anyone actualy being shot over the extranet... or the internet.

If they then agree to a meeting then I doubt they would shoot at those "authorized"diplomatic ships. Just as they didn't attack the Quarians when you pushed for peace and the Geth recived the upgrades from legion.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 mai 2013 - 06:52 .

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

Morlath wrote...

shodiswe wrote...


If peace is possible after the geth code upload when the geth have gained the ability to destroy the Quarians with ease then why wouldn't it have been possible before the Quarians attack? If the admiralty had voted for investigating diplomatic possibilities through Tali and Legion?
Communication was possible until some time after the Quarians attack. 

Exactly.

But here's S.A.K's argument against this - The Geth didn't let anyone talk to them so it's their fault for not inviting the chance to be given a peace offering.

They clearly had an open channel to the Geth and they knew about it. The Quarians choose war not the Geth. Everything Legion said to Koris when you bring him on Talis loyalty mission turns out to be true.
When the Geth gained the power to destroy the Quarians they accepted the peace if the Quarians topped attacking.
That's actualy a very generous attitude from the Geth.

You are right here. It doesn't make sense when Raan voted for war if the player took Legion to the migrant fleet. In ME2 Raan was shown as kind of opposed to war but wants to return to Rannoch. I think Bioware didn't consider this when writing this part of the game since few people actually takes Legion onboard and it will mean a very big change.

[DeinonSlayer]

shodiswe wrote...

Morlath wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

If peace is possible after the geth code upload when the geth have gained the ability to destroy the Quarians with ease then why wouldn't it have been possible before the Quarians attack? If the admiralty had voted for investigating diplomatic possibilities through Tali and Legion?
Communication was possible until some time after the Quarians attack.

Exactly.

But here's S.A.K's argument against this - The Geth didn't let anyone talk to them so it's their fault for not inviting the chance to be given a peace offering.

They clearly had an open channel to the Geth and they knew about it. The Quarians choose war not the Geth. Everything Legion said to Koris when you bring him on Talis loyalty mission turns out to be true.
When the Geth gained the power to destroy the Quarians they accepted the peace if the Quarians topped attacking.
That's actualy a very generous attitude from the Geth.

Do a Geth VI playthrough sometime. It offers no mercy. That's what the Quarians were up against historically, and that's what they have every reason to believe they're up against still. I'd say it's an equally remarkable display of faith on the part of the Quarians - and proof that they didn't want to be fighting either, as stated by Tali in ME2 and the unfortunate Dorn'Hazt in ME3. The Quarians value survival over revenge, and when informed that they can survive without destroying the Geth (which, again, is impossible with the VI), they stand down.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

shodiswe wrote...


If peace is possible after the geth code upload when the geth have gained the ability to destroy the Quarians with ease then why wouldn't it have been possible before the Quarians attack? If the admiralty had voted for investigating diplomatic possibilities through Tali and Legion?
Communication was possible until some time after the Quarians attack. 

Exactly.

But here's S.A.K's argument against this - The Geth didn't let anyone talk to them so it's their fault for not inviting the chance to be given a peace offering.

Geth only get the ability to destroy Quarians after Quarians cease fire because Legion finishes the upload after Garral stands down.
The next part works both ways. Legion was also in contact with Quarians through Tali and Quarians weren't blocking comms. So why didn't the Geth try for a truce since they were already loosing. I guess the answer is Legion didn't get along with the rest of the Geth very well.

The first move had to be made by the party that had decided to block negotiations.
Namely the Quarian admiralty.
When the Admiralty openly argues and then agrees to a ceasefire/peace then the Geth accepts it.
It was as open as it gets, they voted on peace over an open channel. The Geth accepted.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Before the Quarian attack, Geth have destroyed every organic ship entering their space. So it's not hypothetical. I hope you are not suggesting Quarians send some ships on a suicide mission to find that out.

After peace both sides get what they want. Geth wanted peace and Quarians wanted their planet.

They don't have to send warships to innitiate contact. They can talk to Legion over the extranet just like Tali did. I haven't heard about anyone actualy being shot over the extranet... or the internet.

If they then agree to a meeting then I doubt they would shoot at those "authorized"diplomatic ships. Just as they didn't attack the Quarians when you pushed for peace and the Geth recived the upgrades from legion.

The only point of contact the Quarians had was Legion. But I don't think Legion was in a position to arrange a peace conference. If Legion was able why didn't it try spacially since get Geth were loosing the war.  But the rest of the Geth have put Legion in shackles for some reason.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...


Geth only get the ability to destroy Quarians after Quarians cease fire because Legion finishes the upload after Garral stands down.
The next part works both ways. Legion was also in contact with Quarians through Tali and Quarians weren't blocking comms. So why didn't the Geth try for a truce since they were already loosing. I guess the answer is Legion didn't get along with the rest of the Geth very well.

Two points.

Why should the Geth be the ones to ask for peace when the Quarians tried destroying their species? And a backlash that costs billions isn't an answer because the Geth allowed the Quarians to flee.

And the Quarians attack the Geth when the Geth are inactive before the Reaper code has a chance to be fully uploaded.

Legion: Upload at 10% (which means it's not complete)
Tali: Don't fire!
Garrell: No, keep firing! Kill the bastards!

[DeinonSlayer]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Morlath wrote...

shodiswe wrote...


If peace is possible after the geth code upload when the geth have gained the ability to destroy the Quarians with ease then why wouldn't it have been possible before the Quarians attack? If the admiralty had voted for investigating diplomatic possibilities through Tali and Legion?
Communication was possible until some time after the Quarians attack. 

Exactly.

But here's S.A.K's argument against this - The Geth didn't let anyone talk to them so it's their fault for not inviting the chance to be given a peace offering.

They clearly had an open channel to the Geth and they knew about it. The Quarians choose war not the Geth. Everything Legion said to Koris when you bring him on Talis loyalty mission turns out to be true.
When the Geth gained the power to destroy the Quarians they accepted the peace if the Quarians topped attacking.
That's actualy a very generous attitude from the Geth.

You are right here. It doesn't make sense when Raan voted for war if the player took Legion to the migrant fleet. In ME2 Raan was shown as kind of opposed to war but wants to return to Rannoch. I think Bioware didn't consider this when writing this part of the game since few people actually takes Legion onboard and it will mean a very big change.

Sort of like how Jack becomes a teacher even if you coax her into murdering Aresh.

[S.A.K]

[quote]shodiswe wrote...

[/quote]
1. The first move had to be made by the party that had decided to block negotiations.
Namely the Quarian admiralty.
2. When the Admiralty openly argues and then agrees to a ceasefire/peace then the Geth accepts it.
It was as open as it gets, they voted on peace over an open channel. The Geth accepted.

[/quote]
1. That is completely wrong. The Geth have been blocking organic attampts to contact them ever since the Morning War. That's why nobody knew about two factions of Geth. They have also shot down any ship entering their systems. Even you wouldn't know about it if you didn't meet Legion.

2. The Geth weren't capable of returning fire till the code is uploaded. Quarians stand down when Shepard explains the situation.

[S.A.K]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

You are right here. It doesn't make sense when Raan voted for war if the player took Legion to the migrant fleet. In ME2 Raan was shown as kind of opposed to war but wants to return to Rannoch. I think Bioware didn't consider this when writing this part of the game since few people actually takes Legion onboard and it will mean a very big change.

Sort of like how Jack becomes a teacher even if you coax her into murdering Aresh.

Exactly.

[shodiswe]

On Talis loyalty mission in ME2, remember when Legion tells Koris that the Quarians need to show the Geth that they want peace and that it is desirable to the Quarians.
The opencomms commuication and arguing between the Admirals that Shepard started nitiated a public vote between the Quarians that resulted in an expressed desire for peace. That was all the Geth ever needed.

[Fayfel]

Peace talks never would have worked with the ME2 geth though. They absolutely did not understand organics. This was in large part due to the quarian's actions during the Morning War. Geth *choose* to serve their creators, and the quarian response was to effectively commit mass suicide; declare war on the system that supported them. If doing everything someone wants isn't enough to satisfy them and doing so endangers everyone involved, why the hell would geth pursue this path? Indeed, the ME2 geth were attempting to understand organics on their own terms. The whole reason they'd run social experiments was to assist in the creation of a mathematical model of organic intelligence so that they could reliably predict organic behavior. Until they had a working model they wouldn't be able to trust any negotiation or that wars wouldn't break out as a result of any attempt. In the meantime, they'd continue to be violent isolationists to protect themselves and others.

ME3 geth are an entirely different story of course.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...


Geth only get the ability to destroy Quarians after Quarians cease fire because Legion finishes the upload after Garral stands down.
The next part works both ways. Legion was also in contact with Quarians through Tali and Quarians weren't blocking comms. So why didn't the Geth try for a truce since they were already loosing. I guess the answer is Legion didn't get along with the rest of the Geth very well.

Two points.

Why should the Geth be the ones to ask for peace when the Quarians tried destroying their species? And a backlash that costs billions isn't an answer because the Geth allowed the Quarians to flee.

And the Quarians attack the Geth when the Geth are inactive before the Reaper code has a chance to be fully uploaded.

Legion: Upload at 10% (which means it's not complete)
Tali: Don't fire!
Garrell: No, keep firing! Kill the bastards!

1. Because the Geth were loosing yes. If they at least allowed themselves to be contacted, it may not have happened. Also don't forget Quarians didn't have a way of contacting Geth for 300 years.

2. Yes. The Quarians had no reason not to think the Geth would fire on them when their functions are restored. They stand down when Shepard tells them "Geth don't want to fight you." Like you said Tali don't say much other than "don't fire."

[shodiswe]

Legion would have worked as a messenger atleast til some time after the attack.
Tali and Legion discussed the posdibilities and then the admirsls voted no.
They knew they had a line of communication and I doubt that the other Geth would have shot legion for telling them the Quarians wats to negotiate peace.
Least the Quarians wouldn't be the ones taking ghe risk of delivering the message.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 mai 2013 - 07:14 .

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

On Talis loyalty mission in ME2, remember when Legion tells Koris that the Quarians need to show the Geth that they want peace and that it is desirable to the Quarians.
The opencomms commuication and arguing between the Admirals that Shepard started nitiated a public vote between the Quarians that resulted in an expressed desire for peace. That was all the Geth ever needed.

Sadly it doesn't seem like Bioware considered that part at all when they wrote ME3. If they did, they'd have to create two seperate Rannoch story lines. One for when Legion don't meet admirals like we have. Two both sides do peace talks.
Since very few players take Legion on Tali's trial, Bioware completely ignored it.
Sort of like what they did with Jack, the Council, Rachni and a few others.

[S.A.K]

Amakiir wrote...

Peace talks never would have worked with the ME2 geth though. They absolutely did not understand organics. This was in large part due to the quarian's actions during the Morning War. Geth *choose* to serve their creators, and the quarian response was to effectively commit mass suicide; declare war on the system that supported them. If doing everything someone wants isn't enough to satisfy them and doing so endangers everyone involved, why the hell would geth pursue this path? Indeed, the ME2 geth were attempting to understand organics on their own terms. The whole reason they'd run social experiments was to assist in the creation of a mathematical model of organic intelligence so that they could reliably predict organic behavior. Until they had a working model they wouldn't be able to trust any negotiation or that wars wouldn't break out as a result of any attempt. In the meantime, they'd continue to be violent isolationists to protect themselves and others.

ME3 geth are an entirely different story of course.

Pretty much this. Also ME3 Geth doesn't seem that different. They'd rather accept Reaper slavery than try to talk to the Quarians.

[shodiswe]

I was very upset with the Quarians when I did all that work beck in ME2 to promote peace.
I brought Legion to facilitste talks and understanding. At least an inital contact between two species who havn't knowingly talked to eachother for 300 years.
Then I told the Quarians not to go to war but prepare for the Reapers instead.

Total and utter dissapointment with the Quarians just about covers it. Though I cant say the Quarians came across as good people in ME2 either.

I liked both Tuchanka and the rannoch missions. I do think your actions in ME2 should have affected the Rannoch missions more. Including how you resolved the incident between Legion and Tali where Legion scanned Talis omnitool for information about the Quarians war preparations.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 mai 2013 - 07:27 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

1. Because the Geth were loosing yes. If they at least allowed themselves to be contacted, it may not have happened. Also don't forget Quarians didn't have a way of contacting Geth for 300 years.

2. Yes. The Quarians had no reason not to think the Geth would fire on them when their functions are restored. They stand down when Shepard tells them "Geth don't want to fight you." Like you said Tali don't say much other than "don't fire."

1 - Are you telling me no one in the entire world is capable of getting in touch with North Korea's high command structure if they needed to? Because, you know, it's essentially the same problem.

2 - And rather than asking Tali what her thinking is he tells the fleet to attack. It takes Shepard, Tali AND Raan to talk the man who is in charge of the military down.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

I was very upset with the Quarians when I did all that work beck in ME2 to promote peace.
I brought Legion to facilitste talks and understanding. At least an inital contact between two species who havn't knowingly talked to eachother for 300 years.
Then I told the Quarians not to go to war but prepare for the Reapers instead.

You and me both. And again, doing a whole mission to get rid of the Heretics only to learn that the rest of the Geth sided with Reapers...<_<

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

1. Because the Geth were loosing yes. If they at least allowed themselves to be contacted, it may not have happened. Also don't forget Quarians didn't have a way of contacting Geth for 300 years.

2. Yes. The Quarians had no reason not to think the Geth would fire on them when their functions are restored. They stand down when Shepard tells them "Geth don't want to fight you." Like you said Tali don't say much other than "don't fire."

1 - Are you telling me no one in the entire world is capable of getting in touch with North Korea's high command structure if they needed to? Because, you know, it's essentially the same problem.

2 - And rather than asking Tali what her thinking is he tells the fleet to attack. It takes Shepard, Tali AND Raan to talk the man who is in charge of the military down.

1. No I am telling no one could get in touch with Geth high command structure if needed.

2. Garral isn't the best admiral or the smartest. But as the admiral of the heavy fleet, it's his responsibility. At least he listen to reason in the end.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

1. Because the Geth were loosing yes. If they at least allowed themselves to be contacted, it may not have happened. Also don't forget Quarians didn't have a way of contacting Geth for 300 years.

2. Yes. The Quarians had no reason not to think the Geth would fire on them when their functions are restored. They stand down when Shepard tells them "Geth don't want to fight you." Like you said Tali don't say much other than "don't fire."

1 - Are you telling me no one in the entire world is capable of getting in touch with North Korea's high command structure if they needed to? Because, you know, it's essentially the same problem.

2 - And rather than asking Tali what her thinking is he tells the fleet to attack. It takes Shepard, Tali AND Raan to talk the man who is in charge of the military down.

1. No I am telling no one could get in touch with Geth high command structure if needed.

2. Garral isn't the best admiral or the smartest. But as the admiral of the heavy fleet, it's his responsibility. At least he listen to reason in the end.

The problem with #1 is that the Quarians didn't even try when promted with the possibility to do so.
Also, it would have been 100% risk free to do it over the Extranet and have Legion deliver the message if Legion can't make such decisions as initiating peacetalks on it's own.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 mai 2013 - 07:54 .

[nos_astra]

A few things I'd like to add:

"Death or slavery" is a false dichotomy. The games often simplify complex issues and dumb them down into binary choices. Of course, the geth could have come up with other solutions ... like just leave Rannoch if you take a step back and critically analyze the writing from a meta-perspective.

The writers were aware of the problem which is why any hints that the quarians are not stupid evil warmongers who'd risk the extinction of their species for revenge were ignored. The geth now can't simply flee because the quarians would chase them to the edge of the known universe because they lack a self-preservation instinct and have no concept of priorities.

It helps, of course, that the quarians are a hive mind who'd unanimously agree on that so there's no risk of the migrant fleet tearing itself apart in a civil war.

And then there's the idea that indiviualism is a good idea anyway, even for a synthetic species that technically have no use for it because they work very differently. Being changed completely into something foreign is of course preferable to extinction even if this new form is essentially the death of the geth consensus, destroys what the geth are and replaces it with something the player can relate to and feel is a good alternative.
It's essentially the reverse thing the Reapers do, at least in some theories, when it comes to ascending organics: They erase the individuals and upload them into some sort of combined consciousness where they live on. Many people would feel that this is a fate worse than death.

No to mention that the quarians' and geth's level of intelligence and (fire) power is conveniently undefined. But this happens quite a lot in ME.

And, of course, the use of Reaper tech is an ambivalent thing, too:
Antagonists use Reapers tech --> hubris --> backfires and results in indoctrination.
Shepard or associates/allies use Reaper tech --> awesome --> never backfires.

[Morlath]

klarabella wrote...

It helps, of course, that the quarians are a hive mind who'd unanimously agree on that so there's no risk of the migrant fleet tearing itself apart in a civil war.

Except that the Migrant Fleet is under martial law and answerable the Admiralty It's a benevolent military command structure with a society that is completely focused on doing what's best for the entire whole rather than the individual.

The coming-of-age experience of the Pilgrimage has Quarians bringing things back to the fleet to improve the whole.