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[shodiswe]

Once the Admiralty voted agaisnt establishing or accpting Communication with the Geth the Quarians had "officialy" declined all Communication with the Geth.

They were basicly the Reapers destroying a species and who didn't care what anyone had to say about it.
Accepting a Communication from the Geth without approval from the Admiralty in the form of a vote would have been treason.

I don't think Talis talks with Legion after that vote was very popular with the Admiralty if they even knew about it.

When the Admiralty as a whole orders a Communications blackout then, you got it. Going against it is treason.

There are likely decoders and other intel people who can pickup any Communication atempts but any answer would requier a vote initiated by an admiral and the Admiraltys approval for initiating Communications or a peaceprocess.

Communicating with the enemy has always been meet with suspicion, in just about any war there ever was, even civilians talking to eachother has been meet with stigma, like scientists sharing data during wartime regardign astronomical observation and non war related topics.

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...

klarabella wrote...

It helps, of course, that the quarians are a hive mind who'd unanimously agree on that so there's no risk of the migrant fleet tearing itself apart in a civil war.

Except that the Migrant Fleet is under martial law and answerable the Admiralty It's a benevolent military command structure with a society that is completely focused on doing what's best for the entire whole rather than the individual.

The coming-of-age experience of the Pilgrimage has Quarians bringing things back to the fleet to improve the whole.

And? That somehow means there would be no internal struggle? That this somehow prevents the quarian society from falling apart into factions that would try to gain control of the liveships to force their own agenda?

What makes you think the rift would be between military and civilians? How about a rift right through the command structure or the Admirality Board itself, with the civilians choosing sides as they see fit?

Modifié par klarabella, 11 mai 2013 - 09:15 .

[shodiswe]

The Admiraltys open transmission declaring their interest in a Peace process changed all that however.

Adding Legions coding ot the Geth might have changed them aswell, we don't know, but we do know that the Geth do destroy the Quarians with the Legion code if the Quarians don't vote for a peaceprocess and ceasefire.

It all commes down to the the Question, do the Quarians seek a peaceful resolution to their 300 year long war?

The Geth have been scanning radiotransmissions, the extranet and every source they can find to help them understand and see what's going on out there for the past 300 years.
They were probably somewhat relieved to find out that most organics ignored the Geth and just went about their own business.

Most likely there has never been any "overwhelming" support for a peaceprocess. A single Quarian talking Peace isn't enough to indicate the Quarians as a species or the Admiralty wants Peace.

The Council sent ambassadors right after the Geth/quarian war and their murder of unarmed synthetic diplomats requesting a meeting with the Council. I don't think murdering synthetics and then sending ships to Geth space sends a message that they are looking for Peace.

After that noone goes there or atempts to contact the Geth for 300 years and the council puts up laws or was it regulations forbidding provocation of the Geth, until Sovereign and Saren manages or recruit a few Geth that become the Heretics. A Group of terrorists like Cerberus that leaves geth civilized space and then begins spying and plotting against them.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 mai 2013 - 09:20 .

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

1. No I am telling no one could get in touch with Geth high command structure if needed.

2. Garral isn't the best admiral or the smartest. But as the admiral of the heavy fleet, it's his responsibility. At least he listen to reason in the end.

The problem with #1 is that the Quarians didn't even try when promted with the possibility to do so.
Also, it would have been 100% risk free to do it over the Extranet and have Legion deliver the message if Legion can't make such decisions as initiating peacetalks on it's own.

We actually don't know that. They Quarians might have tried to negotiate with Geth in the past in hope of returning to Rannoch. But we do know that Geth have always blocked communications and if Quarians made such an attempt, it would have failed because of it. They also considered peace in the current situation. They held a vote to decide war or negotiations and vote went in the favor of war.

The problem is Geth had 300 years to answer communications from organics, but they didn't. So why are you people blaming Quarians for not trying it in the last few days? Even then the only line of communications they had was Legion and it's clear Legion wasn't in a place to hold negotiations. Also what if Legion died in the SM or was never activated by Shepard?

[Morlath]

klarabella wrote...

And? That somehow means there would be no internal struggle? That this somehow prevents the quarian society from falling apart into factions that would try to gain control of the liveships to force their own agenda?

What makes you think the rift would be between military and civilians? How about a rift right through the command structure or the Admirality Board itself, with the civilians choosing sides as they see fit?

What makes me think this?

Mass Effect 3, Priority: Perseus Veil and the other missions have the Quarian civilian ships armed and right there in the middle of the war. So obviously there wasn't enough of a commotion to stop the war plan from happening.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

1. No I am telling no one could get in touch with Geth high command structure if needed.

2. Garral isn't the best admiral or the smartest. But as the admiral of the heavy fleet, it's his responsibility. At least he listen to reason in the end.

The problem with #1 is that the Quarians didn't even try when promted with the possibility to do so.
Also, it would have been 100% risk free to do it over the Extranet and have Legion deliver the message if Legion can't make such decisions as initiating peacetalks on it's own.

We actually don't know that. They Quarians might have tried to negotiate with Geth in the past in hope of returning to Rannoch. But we do know that Geth have always blocked communications and if Quarians made such an attempt, it would have failed because of it. They also considered peace in the current situation. They held a vote to decide war or negotiations and vote went in the favor of war.

The problem is Geth had 300 years to answer communications from organics, but they didn't. So why are you people blaming Quarians for not trying it in the last few days? Even then the only line of communications they had was Legion and it's clear Legion wasn't in a place to hold negotiations. Also what if Legion died in the SM or was never activated by Shepard?

Not blocked, jsut they didn't respond, but that was likely 300 years back. Around the time of the Quarian retreat/exile and at the tiem when the Council murdered synthetics emissaries, then sent ships to geth space which got shot down.
Then the Council forbid any provocation of the Geth and it's "likely" been like that for almost 300 years.

We're told by Legion that the Geth are checking in on the Organcis/spying on them over the extranet and using fake id's when interacting with organcis to learn more about them.

Tbh, I think both sides failed at Communication and common sense.

The Geth are happy as long as they are left alone and safe to figure things out, most organics are happy as long as the Geth stay where they are, except for the Quarians ofcourse.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 mai 2013 - 09:57 .

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...
What makes me think this?

Mass Effect 3, Priority: Perseus Veil and the other missions have the Quarian civilian ships armed and right there in the middle of the war. So obviously there wasn't enough of a commotion to stop the war plan from happening.

Didn't you just use the bit of writing I'm criticizing to justify the bit of writing I'm criticizing? 

The quarians unanimously decide to engage in an all-out war against the geth because apparently the quarians unanimously decide to engage all-out war against the geth that arbitrarily limits the geth's options to slavery (accept the Reaper code that will turn them into Reaper's pawns) or death.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 mai 2013 - 10:13 .

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...
Not blocked, jsut they didn't respond, but that was likely 300 years back. Around the time of the Quarian retreat/exile and at the tiem when the Council murdered synthetics emissaries, then sent ships to geth space which got shot down.
Then the Council forbid any provocation of the Geth and it's "likely" been like that for almost 300 years.

We're told by Legion that the Geth are checking in on the Organcis/spying on them over the extranet and using fake id's when interacting with organcis to learn more about them.

Tbh, I think both sides failed at Communication and common sense.

The Geth are happy as long as they are left alone and safe to figure things out, most organics are happy as long as the Geth stay where they are, except for the Quarians ofcourse.

From the wiki:
"They adopted an extremely isolationist attitude - any ships that
ventured into geth space were immediately attacked and destroyed. They prevented any contact by other races with themselves"
Prevented means they were blocked. Not unanswered.

The council killing those AI's happened at exactly the same year as the MW. I am very against that action, but it looks like the council wanted to make sure they don't face another MW.

I am fine with Geth wanting to be left alone. The problem is they desided to do it in the Quarian home system. Didn't they expect Quarians to return one day? Didn't they expect the Quarians to want their world back? Why the hell did they build that mega structure in that perticular system creating a big a** target?

Looks like the Geth fail at common sense.

[Morlath]

klarabella wrote...

Morlath wrote...
What makes me think this?

Mass Effect 3, Priority: Perseus Veil and the other missions have the Quarian civilian ships armed and right there in the middle of the war. So obviously there wasn't enough of a commotion to stop the war plan from happening.

Didn't you just use the bit of writing I'm criticizing to justify the bit of writing I'm criticizing? 

You argued that the Quarian people would rise up/stop such an insane plan if they felt it wasn't smart. So either they didn't think that or they didn't rise up. Either way they're still following the orders once the Admiralty Board votes 3-2.

[nos_astra]

Well, leaving attempts of contact unanswered means pretty much blocking all reconciliation efforts.

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Morlath wrote...
What makes me think this?

Mass Effect 3, Priority: Perseus Veil and the other missions have the Quarian civilian ships armed and right there in the middle of the war. So obviously there wasn't enough of a commotion to stop the war plan from happening.

Didn't you just use the bit of writing I'm criticizing to justify the bit of writing I'm criticizing? 

You argued that the Quarian people would rise up/stop such an insane plan if they felt it wasn't smart. So either they didn't think that or they didn't rise up. Either way they're still following the orders once the Admiralty Board votes 3-2.

I'm criticizing the writing from a meta perspective. The binary choice between slavery or death is forced by the writers. 

It's one of the the writers favorite way to force conflict. Like the Council's retconned attitude and their iron grip on the whole galaxy that railroaded Shepard into working with Cerberus because Shepard totally had no choice.

Well, of course Shepard had a choice.
So had the geth.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 mai 2013 - 10:22 .

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
Not blocked, jsut they didn't respond, but that was likely 300 years back. Around the time of the Quarian retreat/exile and at the tiem when the Council murdered synthetics emissaries, then sent ships to geth space which got shot down.
Then the Council forbid any provocation of the Geth and it's "likely" been like that for almost 300 years.

We're told by Legion that the Geth are checking in on the Organcis/spying on them over the extranet and using fake id's when interacting with organcis to learn more about them.

Tbh, I think both sides failed at Communication and common sense.

The Geth are happy as long as they are left alone and safe to figure things out, most organics are happy as long as the Geth stay where they are, except for the Quarians ofcourse.

From the wiki:
"They adopted an extremely isolationist attitude - any ships that
ventured into geth space were immediately attacked and destroyed. They prevented any contact by other races with themselves"
Prevented means they were blocked. Not unanswered.

The council killing those AI's happened at exactly the same year as the MW. I am very against that action, but it looks like the council wanted to make sure they don't face another MW.

I am fine with Geth wanting to be left alone. The problem is they desided to do it in the Quarian home system. Didn't they expect Quarians to return one day? Didn't they expect the Quarians to want their world back? Why the hell did they build that mega structure in that perticular system creating a big a** target?

Looks like the Geth fail at common sense.

Not answering or edknowledging transmissions is the same as preventing. Blocking = jamming signals. Whoever the council sent were likely treated as either agressors or spies. It's also likely the Geth were worried that early visitors would report on their lack of defences which would invite an attack.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yeah, the geth aren't your friendly synthetics. Best to help the quarians win the damned war and take back their home world if you're role playing. If you're metagaming, you can make peace and pick destroy. It's kind of a two for one -- kill the reapers and get rid of the geth.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 11 mai 2013 - 10:39 .

[Reorte]

shodiswe wrote...

Not answering or edknowledging transmissions is the same as preventing. Blocking = jamming signals. Whoever the council sent were likely treated as either agressors or spies. It's also likely the Geth were worried that early visitors would report on their lack of defences which would invite an attack.

Killing anyone who goes near them rather invites attack too.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

Not answering or edknowledging transmissions is the same as preventing. Blocking = jamming signals. Whoever the council sent were likely treated as either agressors or spies. It's also likely the Geth were worried that early visitors would report on their lack of defences which would invite an attack.

I was doing the Geth side a favor. If the Geth knew organics wanted peace with them and decidede to ignore it, that isn't a good thing about the Geth.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Not answering or edknowledging transmissions is the same as preventing. Blocking = jamming signals. Whoever the council sent were likely treated as either agressors or spies. It's also likely the Geth were worried that early visitors would report on their lack of defences which would invite an attack.

I was doing the Geth side a favor. If the Geth knew organics wanted peace with them and decidede to ignore it, that isn't a good thing about the Geth.

You don't send ambassadors unless invited.
If the Geth didn't feel ready to talk then they should have respected that.
Ambassadors are recognized and approved by both sides.
Whithout recognition they become uninvited guests, intruders or spies.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 mai 2013 - 11:12 .

[4stringwizard]

ME2 Legion:
"Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future." "Geth build their own future......."


ME3 Legion:
"Look! Shiny Reaper tech!"

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 11 mai 2013 - 04:04 .

[Argolas]

4stringwizard wrote...

"Look! Shiny Reaper tech!"

I'll upload it to all Geth at once or die trying!

[Fredvdp]

Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us.

ME2's Legion said that all species have to evolve on their own terms because using another civilization's technology blinds you to alternatives. When Legion accepted the Old Machine code in ME3, he betrayed his own ideals. I picked the destroy ending because I accepted Legion's logic from ME2.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 11 mai 2013 - 05:33 .

[S.A.K]

Fredvdp wrote...

Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us.

ME2's Legion said that all species have to evolve on their own terms because using another civilization's technology blinds you to alternatives. When Legion accepted the Old Machine code in ME3, he betrayed his own ideals. I picked the destroy ending because I accepted Legion's logic from ME2.

Well said! Well said indeed!

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The alternative is to drift in space with their entire civilization on-board, unable to render assistance to the wider war effort and hoping the Reapers don't find them.

The alternative was not to vote 3-2 against entering into talks with the Geth like Tali, Legion and Koris wanted.

Quarians - Should we have a conversation with the Geth since Tali is already talking to one of them or should we put guns on our kids homes and go to war?

Gherel - I ain't talking to no stinking toaster and the kids need to learn how to kill toasters sooner or later.  Plus we got this cool new weapon and like that talking toaster told Koris, we always attack when we think we can win.  We can't screw up our perfect record.

Quarians - War it is then.  Sorry Tali.

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Do a Geth VI playthrough sometime. It offers no mercy. That's what the Quarians were up against historically, and that's what they have every reason to believe they're up against still. I'd say it's an equally remarkable display of faith on the part of the Quarians - and proof that they didn't want to be fighting either, as stated by Tali in ME2 and the unfortunate Dorn'Hazt in ME3. The Quarians value survival over revenge, and when informed that they can survive without destroying the Geth (which, again, is impossible with the VI), they stand down.

In the peace option, Shepard tells the Quarians in both the Paragon and Renegade options that the Geth are coming back online and will wipe them out when they do.  The only logical reason for Shep to say this given the previous war is the Geth are coming back online with Reaper Code.  So in the Paragon option when he speaks of the Geth not wanting to kill them, I am sure that may be a good argument for a lot of Quarians but the guy who makes the decision ie Gherel given his nature is likely making the decision because Shep just told him he can't win.  As Legion says the Quarians attack 100% when they think they can win and Shep informing Gherel that the Geth are coming back online and will wipe them out is pretty much evidence they can't win.  

This is also why when Tali tells him to stand down, he refuses.  He is likely well aware she is probably doing so because they may have made some arrangement with Legion.  However, he refuses to listen to it because without being told of the RC, he thinks he can win.  That is what Gherel's decision is based on.  Whether he thinks he can win or not.  If the code is not uploaded, he does and the Geth die.  If the code is uploaded but Tali doesn't tell him it has been uploaded, he thinks he can win and the Geth kill them.  In the peace option, the code is uploaded and Shep tells him in both Paragon and Renegade options, the Geth will kill them so he stands down.

Modifié par remydat, 11 mai 2013 - 06:07 .

[remydat]

As this video proves from 9:30 on, Tali and Koris were outvoted 3-2 with respect to negotiating for peace. The Quarians did not want peace before the war.  Tali and Legion were talking and Tali flat out says she hoped it would set the stage for peace.  The Quarians rejected it and instead decided that rather than have a conversation with the Geth, it was preferable to put guns on their kids homes and go to war. 

I ask any parent.  Would you oppose a simple conversation that can take place over the extranet as Tali and Legion prove and instead opt for your kids going to war?  Talking about 300 years of ships being shot is irrelevant.  The option is talk or kids going to war.  At this particular time what is more important?  Your valid mistrust of the Geth or your kids potentially dying in a war?  A conversation over the extranet never killed anyone.  Putting guns on your kids homes may end up with them getting shot at and killed.  Which would you choose as a responsible parent?

Modifié par remydat, 11 mai 2013 - 06:22 .

[StarcloudSWG]

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

That's because Legion's writer, Chris Etiole (L'etoile?), left Bioware before the development of Mass Effect 3. He left because Mac Walters and Casey Hudson made it a hostile work environment for him; Chris was responsible for the harder science parts of Mass Effect, including the perspective that a synthetic intelligence would not want to *be* an organic intelligence.

Mac and Casey wanted a softer, less intelligent take on the science aspects.

The repeated "Pinocchio/Pygmalion" complexes that Edi and Legion suffered in Mass Effect 3 are the result of writers not being able to push back hard enough against the lead writers.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 11 mai 2013 - 08:37 .

[essarr71]

It's a betrayal if only because Legion doesn't explain the reasoning for the shift in philosophy. But hey.. that's consistent with the narrative of ME3: a lot of "you guys can figure this out yourselves, ya?"

[StarcloudSWG]

It's an actual betrayal. Mac Walters wanted Legion to have a pinocchio complex in Mass Effect 2. He was pushing Legion's writer, Chris Etiole, to write Legion as if Legion wanted to become an organic intelligence, complete with the randomness of emotions. Mac Walters wanted Legion to be 'human.'

Chris disagreed strongly. See, Chris was the one who wrote the majority of the Codex entries. He put the science into the science fiction of Mass Effect. He saw Legion as being a rational machine intelligence with the principles of self-determination and rational cooperation. He was also the one who wrote EDI.

Once Chris left because of the pressures that Mac and Casey were putting on him to go in the direction of fuzzy-headed treknobabble, Mac took the opportunity to seize control of Legion's character and hijack it in the direction he wanted it to go, which is in the direction of "Characters aren't complete unless they're irrationally emotional and human-like." So yes, it was a betrayal of the vision Chris had of Legion and how the Geth work as a society.