599 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravensword]

Whoever believes the Earth is flat, please raise your hands.

[Swagger7]

By the way, for anyone who thinks early firearms took a minute or two to reload:

www.youtube.com/watch

First shot at 2 seconds, third shot at 33 seconds.  That's almost 4 shots per minute.  Granted, he's using tap loading instead of a ramrod, whcih increases the chance of misfires, and he'll eventually need to take time to reposition the matchcord, so that rate of fire isn't sustainable indefinitely.  Still, that's pretty impressive, and a lot better than you can get out of a hand cranked arbalest.  Let's tone it down a bit for the sake of argument to two shots per minute sustained.  Say you have 1000 men armed with matchlock muskets, and let's be conservative and give them a 20% chance of misfiring.  You line them up in five rows of 200.  The front rank fires and then falls back to reload while the next rank moves up and fires.  The first 200 fire (or try to), sending 160 balls downrange.  Then the next rank fires, etc at a pace where the first rank will have finished loading by the time it gets back to the front.  That's a rate of fire of 160 rounds every six seconds, or 1600 rounds per minute.

You know what else shoots 1600 bullets in a minute?  About four of these:




Somehow I think 1600 rounds that could punch through plate armor were a whole lot more useful than 2-3 times as many arrows, when most of them just plinked off armor anyways.  And in case anyone still thinks longbows were a serious threat vs armor, let me reiterate something I added to an earlier post when I thought of it:

"I should also point out that during the era of the Wars of the Roses
(~1455-1485)  the shield had largely disappeared from the battlefield.  (books.google.com/books) 
Why?  Because armor had very little vulnerability to the bows and
crossbows of the time.  Why would men have laid aside their shields if
their armor was particularly vulnerable to ranged attack?  The only
shield that remained in widespread use was the pavise, which crossbowmen
hid behind to reload, and the buckler, which was quite small and
therefore only of use in melee.  Large shields were cast aside because
armor provided sufficient protection, and knights and men-at-arms were
better served by a free hand with which to grapple or by having both
hands free to use a poleaxe."


EDIT:  As far as accuracy goes, here's a 4'x2.5' piece of cardboard shot with a replica matchlock at 25 yards, by someone who had never fired one before:



(www.asmainegoes.com/content/shooting-matchlock-musket-long-pictures-and-videos)


And here's a more experienced shooter at ~25-30 yards:

www.youtube.com/watch

(skip ahead to 6:07 if the link doesn't do it for you.)

That's a small enough grouping to aim for headshots.

Modifié par Swagger7, 11 mai 2013 - 11:44 .

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

So anyway, I don't believe Bioware has any intention of turning Thedas into a steampunk fantasy land, but I must admit that would be miles more appealing to me than what we've got currently.

I just love me some steampunk.

I don't really understand steampunk myself. Don't suppose you could name some fiction titles representative of the genre?

Steampunk is a niche genre of specultive fiction, typically dealing with an alternate past/present/future where steam technology continued to develop. Generally such works borrow a lot of their aesthetic from Victorian-era England, but they don't have to.

Dishonored is a video game with a lot of steampunk elements. The Dwemer ruins in Skyrim embody the steampunk aesthetic, with all their steam-powered contraptions.

The Leviathan trilogy by Scott Westerfeld is a steampunk alternate history of World War 1, in which the Central Powers use mechanized war machines while the Entente Powers fabricate living weapons with genetic engineering. It's one of my favourite works of fiction generally.

There's also the anime film Steamboy.

[Swagger7]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

So anyway, I don't believe Bioware has any intention of turning Thedas into a steampunk fantasy land, but I must admit that would be miles more appealing to me than what we've got currently.

I just love me some steampunk.

I don't really understand steampunk myself. Don't suppose you could name some fiction titles representative of the genre?

Steampunk is a niche genre of specultive fiction, typically dealing with an alternate past/present/future where steam technology continued to develop. Generally such works borrow a lot of their aesthetic from Victorian-era England, but they don't have to.

Dishonored is a video game with a lot of steampunk elements. The Dwemer ruins in Skyrim embody the steampunk aesthetic, with all their steam-powered contraptions.

The Leviathan trilogy by Scott Westerfeld is a steampunk alternate history of World War 1, in which the Central Powers use mechanized war machines while the Entente Powers fabricate living weapons with genetic engineering. It's one of my favourite works of fiction generally.

There's also the anime film Steamboy.

Is there a single steam engine in Dishonored?  It definitely has a similar vibe but I don't know if it qualifies as Steampunk.  I've heard some people call it "electropunk", because it has a similar feel to steampunk/dieselpunk, but everything runs off of that electricity-like power from the whale oil.  I dunno.  Labeling genre defying things can get confusing.

[Harle Cerulean]

Swagger7 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

So anyway, I don't believe Bioware has any intention of turning Thedas into a steampunk fantasy land, but I must admit that would be miles more appealing to me than what we've got currently.

I just love me some steampunk.

I don't really understand steampunk myself. Don't suppose you could name some fiction titles representative of the genre?

Steampunk is a niche genre of specultive fiction, typically dealing with an alternate past/present/future where steam technology continued to develop. Generally such works borrow a lot of their aesthetic from Victorian-era England, but they don't have to.

Dishonored is a video game with a lot of steampunk elements. The Dwemer ruins in Skyrim embody the steampunk aesthetic, with all their steam-powered contraptions.

The Leviathan trilogy by Scott Westerfeld is a steampunk alternate history of World War 1, in which the Central Powers use mechanized war machines while the Entente Powers fabricate living weapons with genetic engineering. It's one of my favourite works of fiction generally.

There's also the anime film Steamboy.

Is there a single steam engine in Dishonored?  It definitely has a similar vibe but I don't know if it qualifies as Steampunk.  I've heard some people call it "electropunk", because it has a similar feel to steampunk/dieselpunk, but everything runs off of that electricity-like power from the whale oil.  I dunno.  Labeling genre defying things can get confusing.

I'm not really into steampunk myself, but I'm slightly astonished no one's mentioned Girl Genius yet.  

[Swagger7]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

So anyway, I don't believe Bioware has any intention of turning Thedas into a steampunk fantasy land, but I must admit that would be miles more appealing to me than what we've got currently.

I just love me some steampunk.

I don't really understand steampunk myself. Don't suppose you could name some fiction titles representative of the genre?

Steampunk is a niche genre of specultive fiction, typically dealing with an alternate past/present/future where steam technology continued to develop. Generally such works borrow a lot of their aesthetic from Victorian-era England, but they don't have to.

Dishonored is a video game with a lot of steampunk elements. The Dwemer ruins in Skyrim embody the steampunk aesthetic, with all their steam-powered contraptions.

The Leviathan trilogy by Scott Westerfeld is a steampunk alternate history of World War 1, in which the Central Powers use mechanized war machines while the Entente Powers fabricate living weapons with genetic engineering. It's one of my favourite works of fiction generally.

There's also the anime film Steamboy.

Is there a single steam engine in Dishonored?  It definitely has a similar vibe but I don't know if it qualifies as Steampunk.  I've heard some people call it "electropunk", because it has a similar feel to steampunk/dieselpunk, but everything runs off of that electricity-like power from the whale oil.  I dunno.  Labeling genre defying things can get confusing.

I'm not really into steampunk myself, but I'm slightly astonished no one's mentioned Girl Genius yet.  

Good point.  Never read it myself (not much for webcomics), but you can't spend a lot of time on TVTropes without hearing about Girl Genius.

[Plaintiff]

Swagger7 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

So anyway, I don't believe Bioware has any intention of turning Thedas into a steampunk fantasy land, but I must admit that would be miles more appealing to me than what we've got currently.

I just love me some steampunk.

I don't really understand steampunk myself. Don't suppose you could name some fiction titles representative of the genre?

Steampunk is a niche genre of specultive fiction, typically dealing with an alternate past/present/future where steam technology continued to develop. Generally such works borrow a lot of their aesthetic from Victorian-era England, but they don't have to.

Dishonored is a video game with a lot of steampunk elements. The Dwemer ruins in Skyrim embody the steampunk aesthetic, with all their steam-powered contraptions.

The Leviathan trilogy by Scott Westerfeld is a steampunk alternate history of World War 1, in which the Central Powers use mechanized war machines while the Entente Powers fabricate living weapons with genetic engineering. It's one of my favourite works of fiction generally.

There's also the anime film Steamboy.

Is there a single steam engine in Dishonored?  It definitely has a similar vibe but I don't know if it qualifies as Steampunk.  I've heard some people call it "electropunk", because it has a similar feel to steampunk/dieselpunk, but everything runs off of that electricity-like power from the whale oil.  I dunno.  Labeling genre defying things can get confusing.

Technically, all of Dunwall's technology runs on whale oil, which has been processed to make it ev en more combustible than it is in real life.

It doesn't fit the strict definition of Steampunk, but it borrows a lot in terms of aesthetics.

[Swagger7]

I found actual, legitimate testing done with authentic period guns by The Graz Armoury in Austria.  (journals.hil.unb.ca/index.php/MCR/article/view/17669/22312)  They used a shooter's bench and smaller charges of modern powder to eliminate non weapon based variance.  The powder was reduced in order to simulate the energy provided by the powder of earlier eras.  All of the guns tested were of "munitions grade" and intended for the common soldier, as the museum refused to test their finer examples due to the risk of damaging them.  Only two of the guns were smoothbore matchlocks (referred to as "Doppelhaken G 358" and "Matchlock LG 1514" in the charts in the report).  The wheellocks tested gave similar results and were fairly contemporary with the matchlocks, but I see no reason to include them when the others two provided such good data.  Here are the results:

The two guns provided muzzle velocities of 533 m/sec and 449 m/sec respectively.  This is far in excess of the figures I used in my original calculations, which were 650-750fps or 198-228 m/sec.  The faster firing one (with heavier ball as well), dished out a muzzle energy of 6980 joules, which is over 100 times the muzzle energy of the 100lb longbow estimate in my first post!  The first matchlock tested was able to punch through 4mm of steel at 100m.  This was twice as much as the Glock 80 pistol that was tested for comparison purposes could penetrate at only 30m.  It also had a 51.5% chance of hitting a man-sized target at 100m.  The second matchlock was able to punch through 2mm at 30m (same as the Glock) and 1mm at 100m.  It also had a hit radio vs the man-sized target of 60.9%.  They both would have been even more accurate against lines of men, since a miss to either side would possibly hit a different enemy.   The gun with the higher velocity actually had a muzzle energy greater than three times that of an AK-47 shooting standard Soviet rounds.  Granted, and AK-47 is going to penetrate far better because it isn't shooting a round ball.  None-the-less this is still really impressive.  Of course, impurities in period ammunition, shaky hands, and inexperienced shooters would decrease some of these performance numbers, but that's true of bows and crossbows as well.  From some notes I took years ago while doing research with "The Knight and the Blast Furnace: A History of the Metallurgy of
Armour in the Middle Ages & the Early Modern Period" by Alan
Williams I found that the typical thickness of plate armor between 1450-1550 was about 2-2.5mm thick for the thickest part of the breastplate (the ridge in the middle), tapering down to 1-.75mm for the rounded part near the sides.  The armor on limbs was often less than 1mm, typically being closer to .75mm.

The early guns of ~1475-1675 were far more effective in most respects than people (including myself) have been willing to give them credit for.  You can pile up mountains of anecdotes on the other side of the argument, but they hold no weight compared to this:  Authentic, average quality guns that were hundreds of years old could reliably hit a person at 100m half the time and likely punch right through their armor.  The matchlock long gun was a superior weapon to the bow and crossbow in most respects, and rendered both of them obsolete.  Thanks to all the interesting research this thread inspired I can stand by that conclusion wholeheartedly. 

Q.E.D.

[Swagger7]

Plaintiff wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

So anyway, I don't believe Bioware has any intention of turning Thedas into a steampunk fantasy land, but I must admit that would be miles more appealing to me than what we've got currently.

I just love me some steampunk.

I don't really understand steampunk myself. Don't suppose you could name some fiction titles representative of the genre?

Steampunk is a niche genre of specultive fiction, typically dealing with an alternate past/present/future where steam technology continued to develop. Generally such works borrow a lot of their aesthetic from Victorian-era England, but they don't have to.

Dishonored is a video game with a lot of steampunk elements. The Dwemer ruins in Skyrim embody the steampunk aesthetic, with all their steam-powered contraptions.

The Leviathan trilogy by Scott Westerfeld is a steampunk alternate history of World War 1, in which the Central Powers use mechanized war machines while the Entente Powers fabricate living weapons with genetic engineering. It's one of my favourite works of fiction generally.

There's also the anime film Steamboy.

Is there a single steam engine in Dishonored?  It definitely has a similar vibe but I don't know if it qualifies as Steampunk.  I've heard some people call it "electropunk", because it has a similar feel to steampunk/dieselpunk, but everything runs off of that electricity-like power from the whale oil.  I dunno.  Labeling genre defying things can get confusing.

Technically, all of Dunwall's technology runs on whale oil, which has been processed to make it ev en more combustible than it is in real life.

It doesn't fit the strict definition of Steampunk, but it borrows a lot in terms of aesthetics.

True.  So that would make it more dieselpunk with an art style that borrows heavily from steampunk......  Ah, who cares.  I know what it really is: damn good fun.  The rest is academic, and I'm all through with being academic for today, lol.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Early firearms as lame as this:

[RedArmyShogun]

Violence really IS the answer. If you kill enough of the problem its no longer a problem!

[Giant ambush beetle]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

Early firearms as lame as this:

Fail.

Those barrels were found in the ground, that means their wooden stocks were gone, originally they looked like this:  

Modifié par The Woldan , 11 mai 2013 - 04:12 .

[Boycott Bioware]

n7stormrunner wrote...

I'm fairly sure there's a point in here but I can't see it though all the insane troll logic

The reason aliens are called alien is because they are "alien", they do not fit our description, our definition, our logic, our belief...they are ALIEN

So why the scientologists trying to justify their existence using science? Why the hell they keep telling us the aliens come here using "high technology vehicle" that can going warp speed, get into worm hole, and flip time-space...?

They are trying to describe MAGIC and justifying MAGIC through science while science is just 1/3 of the whole pie. The aliens are using magic, why everybody think they are using mechanical vehicles? The way they come here is the same way this message come to your computer when i hit "submit" button

The only being that can do that are....demons, spirits, ghosts, jinns, angels...these are not "scientific" isn't it? they are not scientific because the world today is shaped like that. Everybody are prone to think about "science" and "belief", never end but the scientific community is dominant because that is what "they" want this world to be...

In Thedas, it will be the same thing, when technology rise, people who talk about magic are laughed, ridiculed. People who believe in magic are mocked. people who got possessed are being identified as crazy, schizophrenic and so on. People no longer believe the miracle, religious peoples are mocked, shaman and such are considered primitive...magic is cartoon, anime, movies, CGI, Lord of the Ring....no more magic...everything in history being interpreted freely as myth, literature, folklore, conspiracy theory...History Channel will talk about how Anders blow up the Chantry and how Meredith going berserk because of Red Lyrium...many professors give their comments, scientists give their comment, religious people give their comments, alien hunters give their comment....some people watched with passion, some people laughed...History Channel makes money....

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Qistina wrote...

n7stormrunner wrote...

In Thedas, it will be the same thing, when technology rise, people who talk about magic are laughed, ridiculed. People who believe in magic are mocked. people who got possessed are being identified as crazy, schizophrenic and so on. People no longer believe the miracle, religious peoples are mocked, shaman and such are considered primitive...magic is cartoon, anime, movies, CGI, Lord of the Ring....no more magic...everything in history being interpreted freely as myth, literature, folklore, conspiracy theory...History Channel will talk about how Anders blow up the Chantry and how Meredith going berserk because of Red Lyrium...many professors give their comments, scientists give their comment, religious people give their comments, alien hunters give their comment....some people watched with passion, some people laughed...History Channel makes money....

The fundamental difference here is that magic in Thedas is literally impossible to deny. In Real Life, there might or might not be magic. I tend to believe there isn't, due to the fact that reputable scientists are offering a several million dollar reward for anyone who can objectively prove it exists. In Thedas, there are apostates basically everywhere, and if you live near a Circle you have that too. Even the scientists study magic, as one can gather from the Cardinal Rules. (Incomplete though they may be.) Heck, the nobles all have mage healers who objectively use magic, and anyone in Denerim with enough money can buy a magic penknife. And this is without getting into the Blight, which is objectively magical.

For another nail in your argument's coffin, even the people of Thedas who actually have gunpowder are not able to deny magic. And do you know why that is? Because the Qunari see what is in front of them. The possibility for gunpowder and for magic both exist in front of them.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 mai 2013 - 04:35 .

[Apostate 94]

NO!!! No guns we dont want what happened to Fable 3 happen to Dragon Age. Magic, blades and bows will do everyone just fine.

Loved fable but dont want to see guns

Modifié par Apostate 94, 11 mai 2013 - 04:48 .

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...
In Thedas, it will be the same thing, when technology rise, people who talk about magic are laughed, ridiculed. People who believe in magic are mocked. people who got possessed are being identified as crazy, schizophrenic and so on. People no longer believe the miracle, religious peoples are mocked, shaman and such are considered primitive...magic is cartoon, anime, movies, CGI, Lord of the Ring....no more magic...everything in history being interpreted freely as myth, literature, folklore, conspiracy theory...History Channel will talk about how Anders blow up the Chantry and how Meredith going berserk because of Red Lyrium...many professors give their comments, scientists give their comment, religious people give their comments, alien hunters give their comment....some people watched with passion, some people laughed...History Channel makes money....

.....No, it isn't the same thing, and it never will be the same thing. 

No human being in the real world has ever been able to shoot actual fireballs from their fingertips by the act of thought, and no human being ever will be able to do that. 

[Boycott Bioware]

The fundamental difference here is that magic in Thedas is literally impossible to deny. In Real Life, there might or might not be magic. I tend to believe there isn't, due to the fact that reputable scientists are offering a several million dollar reward for anyone who can objectively prove it exists. In Thedas, there are apostates basically everywhere, and if you live near a Circle you have that too. Even the scientists study magic, as one can gather from the Cardinal Rules. (Incomplete though they may be.) Heck, the nobles all have mage healers who objectively use magic, and anyone in Denerim with enough money can buy a magic penknife. And this is without getting into the Blight, which is objectively magical.

For another nail in your argument's coffin, even the people of Thedas who actually have gunpowder are not able to deny magic. And do you know why that is? Because the Qunari see what is in front of them. The possibility for gunpowder and for magic both exist in front of them.

Today we still have witches, shamans, magicians...in medieval time they are hunted down and burned as heretic, in ancient time they are praised and have high social status.

Thedas in Dragon Age is like medieval where mages are hunted down as "apostates", and in Thedas ancient time, Mages are in high standing (Tevinter Imperium). Isn't that similar?

So future Thedas, is similar to our today world...there will be groups who proud to be "Apostates" similar to our generation today who are proud with "Black Metal"...maybe there will be a rock band named "Maleficarum" in future Thedas

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Qistina wrote...

The fundamental difference here is that magic in Thedas is literally impossible to deny. In Real Life, there might or might not be magic. I tend to believe there isn't, due to the fact that reputable scientists are offering a several million dollar reward for anyone who can objectively prove it exists. In Thedas, there are apostates basically everywhere, and if you live near a Circle you have that too. Even the scientists study magic, as one can gather from the Cardinal Rules. (Incomplete though they may be.) Heck, the nobles all have mage healers who objectively use magic, and anyone in Denerim with enough money can buy a magic penknife. And this is without getting into the Blight, which is objectively magical.

For another nail in your argument's coffin, even the people of Thedas who actually have gunpowder are not able to deny magic. And do you know why that is? Because the Qunari see what is in front of them. The possibility for gunpowder and for magic both exist in front of them.

Today we still have witches, shamans, magicians...in medieval time they are hunted down and burned as heretic, in ancient time they are praised and have high social status.

You're going to have to be more specific with that first one, since I've already addressed that they don't seem to exist..

Thedas in Dragon Age is like medieval where mages are hunted down as "apostates", and in Thedas ancient time, Mages are in high standing (Tevinter Imperium). Isn't that similar?

Not especially, due to the fact that official church standing in the Middle Ages was that witches were just full of crap.* Whether or not that's true, if there is magic in this world you're able to doubt it and apparently could then. That is nothing like the case in Thedas, and that is why the Qunari have magic and science. (Any valid argument for your position has to address them for that reason.)

*The Witch Hunters were just crazy, from what I understand of the Malleus Maleficarum. It might also interest you to know that the text contained knowledge to help you fake evidence of witchcraft.

So future Thedas, is similar to our today world...there will be groups who proud to be "Apostates" similar to our generation today who are proud with "Black Metal"...maybe there will be a rock band named "Maleficarum" in future Thedas

I don't think that addresses the debate at all. In fact, I don't think anything you said in that entire post addresses my argument.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 mai 2013 - 05:30 .

[Ravensword]

I like how the concept of gunpowder replacing magic in the sword and sorcery world of Thedas is being used as a model for how "magic" has died out IRL.

[Silfren]

Ravensword wrote...

I like how the concept of gunpowder replacing magic in the sword and sorcery world of Thedas is being used as a model for how "magic" has died out IRL.

I think my favorite part of this thread was the assertion that humans lost fur because we started wearing clothes.

F*cking evolution, how does it work?

ETA: Also, thanks to everyone who offered steampunk recs.  Going book shopping soon...

Modifié par Silfren, 11 mai 2013 - 05:28 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Silfren wrote...
I think my favorite part of this thread was the assertion that humans lost fur because we started wearing clothes.

F*cking evolution, how does it work?

I have already told you...it's magic

And they call it Evolution Theory

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Qistina wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I think my favorite part of this thread was the assertion that humans lost fur because we started wearing clothes.

F*cking evolution, how does it work?

I have already told you...it's magic

No, what you already told us is that you don't think it happened.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 mai 2013 - 05:33 .

[Ravensword]

Silfren wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I like how the concept of gunpowder replacing magic in the sword and sorcery world of Thedas is being used as a model for how "magic" has died out IRL.

I think my favorite part of this thread was the assertion that humans lost fur because we started wearing clothes.

F*cking evolution, how does it work?

Oh, surely enough, the change in genetic characteristics over a period of many, many, many generations is a magical process and one that is totally not scientific. W/o a doubt, Charles Darwin was one of the most magnificent wizards to have ever lived.

[Boycott Bioware]

Ravensword wrote...
Oh, surely enough, the change in genetic characteristics over a period of many, many, many generations is a magical process and one that is totally not scientific. W/o a doubt, Charles Darwin was one of the most magnificent wizards to have ever lived.

It is written in Kabbalah, The Ancient One changing form in material world towards perfection, the Ancient One is dualism, male and female, separated, then having sexual relationship in the quest of become one again, The Ancient One appear in many forms, changing and keep changing to become the perfect form and then become one again, the process continue...then Adam Kadmon come into being, the perfect being....then Eve come out from Adam Kadmon...The Ancient One separated and become one again, through sex...

Where Darwin got his idea?

Yes, Charles Darwin is a wizard in a form of a scientist....do you know how many scientists at his own time reject him? And up to today his theory never being proven, remain a theory but widely accepted as science...the theory itself evolved to Neo-Darwinism and so on...

It is no different with scientologists trying to explain how alien come to earth from billion light years

They tell you it's science, but actually it's magic...because science is just 1/3 of the whole pie