599 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

Silfren wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

gunpowder did not solved anything in our world

Oh I very much disagree.

Perhaps you do, but you also haven't exactly presented your case well.  You haven't offered an explanation of how wide availability of gunpower would bring an end to mage discrimination.  You also haven't acknowledged all the problems that widely available gunpowder could create. 

Like people shooting mages on sight.  Or the fact that it would put elves--Dalish and alienage--at an even worse disadvantage...unless you actually believed that humans would let them have access to firearms of any sort.

You are being pessimistic. There could be good $$ in it.

[Silfren]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Silfren wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

gunpowder did not solved anything in our world

Oh I very much disagree.

Perhaps you do, but you also haven't exactly presented your case well.  You haven't offered an explanation of how wide availability of gunpower would bring an end to mage discrimination.  You also haven't acknowledged all the problems that widely available gunpowder could create. 

Like people shooting mages on sight.  Or the fact that it would put elves--Dalish and alienage--at an even worse disadvantage...unless you actually believed that humans would let them have access to firearms of any sort.

You are being pessimistic. There could be good $$ in it.

I'm being realistic actually.  I don't see elves creating guns.  That would be a human endeavor, or technology stolen from the Qunari.  Under the circumstances I know alienage elves wouldn't be allowed gunpowder weapons--they're already forbidden weapons as it is--and I don't see any human government willingly trading such weapons to the Dalish.  If the Dalish did get such weapons it would be through banditry on their own or through black market traders.  Either way, humans would have the greater advantage, and there's no way it would end well.

[ArcaneJTM]

More likely to be dwarves that figure out firearms, given their previous explosives experience. I agree that the elves wouldn't be allowed to have them though. As has been pointed out on the mage discrimination issue, the introduction of gunpowder won't magically make people like each other. There's no reason whatsoever to assume that guns would result in human authority lifting the ban on elves having weapons.

As for the Dalish, they probably wouldn't even want them, what with them not being particularly elfish. They might if they decided to go to war with the humans or something, but other than that the Dalish simply wouldn't have much use for gunpowder.

[iOnlySignIn]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@iOnlySignIn: Yes, gunpowder allowed the European peoples to ruin the cultural progression of five continents.

Speaking as a non-European, I say the Europeans did a great thing. Instead of meaningless "cultural progression" they brought actual (technological, economic, and social) progress that made people's lives healthier and more productive.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 13 mai 2013 - 06:11 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Silfren wrote...

I'm being realistic actually.  I don't see elves creating guns.  That would be a human endeavor, or technology stolen from the Qunari. 

You hear that sound? That is the distant roar of the Elven Supremacists ready to lynch you.

[Boycott Bioware]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@iOnlySignIn: Yes, gunpowder allowed the European peoples to ruin the cultural progression of five continents.

Speaking as a non-European, I say the Europeans did a great thing. Instead of meaningless "cultural progression" they brought actual (technological, economic, and social) progress that made people's lives healthier and more productive.

Arabs do that long before Europeans, it is not Europeans who first created guns, it was Arabs, they learn it from Chinese, then European learn it and improvise then they "catch" the moment of history...

It was Arabs who shape Europe....from science to bread and cheese....

The Turk never fall up to today, they only changed shape...Istanbul still stand proudly.....

[Cainhurst Crow]

I;m going to just come out and level with the OP on a basic level. I think your idea of what gunpowder would do for thedas is hopeless utopian theorizing. You claim that guns would end inequality, but guns never did that throughout any of human history. All it did was give the military branch of any civilization more power and more men to rule, leading to bigger wars, and larger casualty rates. Additionally, I don't see how it would stop the darkspawn from being a threat, instead of giving them more troops to kill and consume into their horde. They could even adopt firearms into their arsenal, as they did with bows and crossbows. The stuff about the qunari and mining I kinda agree with, though I don't see what would stop the qunari from adopting firearms into their arsenal as well. The quanri don't fear change, they fear ineffencincy, and if a more efficient weapon is around, they will more than likely adopt it into their military and make improvements upon it.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 mai 2013 - 06:24 .

[Althix]

you mean gunpowder struck hard of feudalism a made knight from op to gimp? yeah sure. you can also use powder in medicine.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@iOnlySignIn: Yes, gunpowder allowed the European peoples to ruin the cultural progression of five continents.

Speaking as a non-European, I say the Europeans did a great thing. Instead of meaningless "cultural progression" they brought actual (technological, economic, and social) progress that made people's lives healthier and more productive.

I believe that was just an endorsement for imperialism.


Back to Africa/Asia/Australia/North and South America lads!

Tally ho!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Qistina wrote...

It was Arabs who shape Europe....from science to bread and cheese....

The Turk never fall up to today, they only changed shape...Istanbul still stand proudly.....

Three things...

Actually never mind. You'll probably just counter with Aliens using magic to build a pyramid or something equally nonsensical.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 13 mai 2013 - 09:38 .

[Plaintiff]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Qistina wrote...

It was Arabs who shape Europe....from science to bread and cheese....

The Turk never fall up to today, they only changed shape...Istanbul still stand proudly.....

Three things...

Actually never mind. You'll probably just counter with Aliens using magic to build a pyramid or something equally nonsensical.

No, aliens would've evolved beyond magic after developing superior technology, remember?

[Silfren]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'm being realistic actually.  I don't see elves creating guns.  That would be a human endeavor, or technology stolen from the Qunari. 

You hear that sound? That is the distant roar of the Elven Supremacists ready to lynch you.

So are you ever going to bother explaining just WHY you think gunpowder will solve Thedas' problems?  And I'm asking for details, not one-liners.  Basically I want a more in-depth explanation of two of your points:

HOW will widely distributed gunpowder technology end mage discrimination?  You haven't thought this through at all: you've not considered that having guns will enable mages to be shot on sight--this is of course assuming that the peasantry would be allowed guns, which is another snag in your naive little scenario. 

HOW will it make the darkspawn threat trivial?  You seem to have completely forgotten that the darkspawn can and do use weapons.  There's no reason at all for you to assume that darkspawn wouldn't get their hands on gun technology, just as they've done for archery.

Moreover, you haven't addressed more recent points I've made:  your entire assumption seems to be that gun technology would spring into existence among all the different peoples of Thedas, but it wouldn't.  It would be developed by one group, which would do their best to control it.  Humans certainly wouldn't just share it with the Dalish, and the alienage elves are already barred from having weapons, so the same ban would obviously extend to guns. 

I don't see Elves developing gunpowder weaponry, I just don't.  Agreeing with the former point about Dwarves, it would be either them or Humans who developed it--or stole it from Qunari, who already have a leg up on this kind of tech, and aren't willing to share it at the moment.  It would provide such an advantage to one group over all others that you can be assured it would trigger conflict, not peace. 

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Qistina wrote...

It was Arabs who shape Europe....from science to bread and cheese....

The Turk never fall up to today, they only changed shape...Istanbul still stand proudly.....

Three things...

Actually never mind. You'll probably just counter with Aliens using magic to build a pyramid or something equally nonsensical.

No, aliens would've evolved beyond magic after developing superior technology, remember?

Wait a sec, aren't magic and super advanced technology supposed to be the same thing?

Modifié par Silfren, 13 mai 2013 - 11:34 .

[Volus Warlord]

secretsandlies wrote...

you mean gunpowder struck hard of feudalism a made knight from op to gimp? yeah sure. you can also use powder in medicine.

Actually, early on, Knights were still effective in combat but not cost effective at all. Gunpowder became popular first and foremost due to economics, and firearms didn't become the powerhouse that they are until later developments. 

Swords, bows, etc. could take YEARS of training to be any good with. In contrast, a modern marine's training is 13 weeks. Gunpowder meant training an individual to wield lethal force became much, much faster; by extension, much, much cheaper. 

[Althix]

cheaper? hmm... i don't agree.
however "YEARS" of training for militia men (cannon fodder)? doubt that.

as for cheaper. regiment consists of 2200 soldiers, each one is carrying 480 rounds of ammunition (machine gunners even more) for a combat day. modern assault rifle cost around 2500-4000$ each. so i don't know... war is profitable as well as expensive.

p.s. by regiment i mean motorized rifle regiment. infantry regiment consists of... i don't remember 2700+

Modifié par secretsandlies, 13 mai 2013 - 01:02 .

[Volus Warlord]

secretsandlies wrote...

cheaper? hmm... i don't agree.
however "YEARS" of training for militia men (cannon fodder)? doubt that.

as for cheaper. regiment consists of 2200 soldiers, each one is carrying 480 rounds of ammunition (machine gunners even more) for a combat day. modern assault rifle cost around 2500-4000$ each. so i don't know... war is profitable as well as expensive.

p.s. by regiment i mean motorized rifle regiment. infantry regiment consists of... i don't remember 2700+

A militia man with a gun is much, much more effective than one with a sword.

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Qistina wrote...

It was Arabs who shape Europe....from science to bread and cheese....

The Turk never fall up to today, they only changed shape...Istanbul still stand proudly.....

Three things...

Actually never mind. You'll probably just counter with Aliens using magic to build a pyramid or something equally nonsensical.

No, aliens would've evolved beyond magic after developing superior technology, remember?

Wait a sec, aren't magic and super advanced technology supposed to be the same thing?

Only if you follow the school of philosophical thought laid out by Arthur C. Clarke. I thought we were arguing within the bounds of Qistinology.

[iOnlySignIn]

Silfren wrote...

HOW will widely distributed gunpowder technology end mage discrimination?  

I explained already. Giving everyone a weapon more dangerous than magic will make magic no longer the most dangerous thing. It's the same as how the development of technologies such as gunpowder stopped superstitious behavior such as witch hunts in our world. Seems almost tautological to me, but maybe not to you.

You haven't thought this through at all: you've not considered that having guns will enable mages to be shot on sight

Why? Why would that happen? If someone wants to shoot mages on sight, they can do it with a bow too, can't they?

Why did't the invention of gunpowder make everyone shoot everyone they don't like on sight IRL? Have you considered that?

You have access to guns, yes? Why don't you shoot everyone you dislike (or think may be dangerous) on sight?

HOW will it make the darkspawn threat trivial?  You seem to have completely forgotten that the darkspawn can and do use weapons.  There's no reason at all for you to assume that darkspawn wouldn't get their hands on gun technology, just as they've done for archery.

Have you seen a darkspawn who could read? A darkspawn craftsman? The dwarves have fought darkspawn the longest (for centuries upon centuries), and the dwarves have gunpowder, golems, and other sophisticated technologies. If darkspawn are capable of learning those they would have done it long ago, wouldn't they?

Moreover, you haven't addressed more recent points I've made:  your entire assumption seems to be that gun technology would spring into existence among all the different peoples of Thedas, but it wouldn't.  It would be developed by one group, which would do their best to control it.  

That's my whole point. I wish (as a game's protagonist) to spread this technology across the civilized peoples of Thedas. I thought that much is obvious - I certainly haven't seen another poster in this thread who failed to grasp this point.

I don't see Elves developing gunpowder weaponry, I just don't.   

OK.

Silfren wrote...

I'm asking for details, not one-liners.  

If I give you one-liners, it's because I'm not fond of repeating myself or stating the obvious. And you've just made me do a lot of both. If you were trolling consider yourself successful but I'm not doing it again.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 13 mai 2013 - 03:27 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Silfren wrote...

So are you ever going to bother explaining just WHY you think gunpowder will solve Thedas' problems? 

I explained already. Giving everyone a weapon more dangerous than magic will make magic no longer the most dangerous thing. Seems almost tautological to me, but maybe not to you.

You've yet to address our point that magic is actually more dangerous than gunpowder, and harder to keep out of the wrong hands.

HOW will widely distributed gunpowder technology end mage discrimination?  You haven't thought this through at all: you've not considered that having guns will enable mages to be shot on sight

Why? Why would that happen? If someone wants to shoot mages on sight, they can do it with a bow and arrow too, can't they?

Why did't the invention of gunpowder make everyone shoot everyone they don't like on sight IRL? Have you considered that?

You have access to guns, yes? Why don't you shoot everyone you dislike (or think is dangerous) on sight?

Gun control.

HOW will it make the darkspawn threat trivial?  You seem to have completely forgotten that the darkspawn can and do use weapons.  There's no reason at all for you to assume that darkspawn wouldn't get their hands on gun technology, just as they've done for archery.

Have you seen a darkspawn who could read? A darkspawn craftsman? The dwarves have fought darkspawn the longest, and dwaves have gunpowder, golems, and other sophisticated technologies. If darkspawn are capable of learning those they would have done it long ago.

If dwarves have anything like gunpowder, it's probably the lyrium sand in Awakenings. And I get the feeling it was invented by its user. Thus, in living memory. As for golems, they cannot be reverse engineered, apparently. One can only assume the Tevinters tried.

Edit: Also, you're neglecting to take into account the archdemon and ogres. A human can take a bullet, and might not even realize they've been shot until they look down and see the blood pouring out. An ogre? Probably won't care when it does notice. And the Archdemon might never.

Moreover, you haven't addressed more recent points I've made:  your entire assumption seems to be that gun technology would spring into existence among all the different peoples of Thedas, but it wouldn't.  It would be developed by one group, which would do their best to control it.  

That is my whole point. I wish to be the one (as a game's protagonist) to spread this technology across the civilized peoples of Thedas.

I think I'd enjoy that. But can you tell me where they live?

Silfren wrote...

I'm asking for details, not one-liners.  

If I give you one-liners, it's because I'm not fond of repeating myself, or stating the obvious. And I've just done a lot of both. Please don't make me do more.

I missed the parts where you answered the religious hatred of mages, the fact that mages can become abominations, and the fact that certain mages can control minds. It seems to me those are relevant to your argument that gunpowder is more dangerous than magic and therefore when everyone has it mages will not be discriminated against.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 mai 2013 - 03:28 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Plaintiff wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Qistina wrote...

It was Arabs who shape Europe....from science to bread and cheese....

The Turk never fall up to today, they only changed shape...Istanbul still stand proudly.....

Three things...

Actually never mind. You'll probably just counter with Aliens using magic to build a pyramid or something equally nonsensical.

No, aliens would've evolved beyond magic after developing superior technology, remember?

Ah of course how stupid of me.

Ah well I'm going to go use my internet connection to "magically" communicate with someone in real time.

[Althix]

Volus Warlord wrote...
A militia man with a gun is much, much more effective than one with a sword.

true. and this get us to a simple conclusion that in op 2 of 3 arguments are flawed.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 13 mai 2013 - 04:04 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You've yet to address our point that magic is actually more dangerous than gunpowder

From what I've seen (apart from non-verifiable stories) of magic in Thedas, it's not.

and harder to keep out of the wrong hands.

Negative. You can give guns to anyone.  You can't with magic.

Gun control.

It's a rhetorical question, Einstein.

If dwarves have anything like gunpowder, it's probably the lyrium sand in Awakenings. And I get the feeling it was invented by its user. Thus, in living memory. As for golems, they cannot be reverse engineered, apparently. One can only assume the Tevinters tried.

If you pay me to write a similarly long explanation, I can perfectly explain how gunpowder technology cannot be reverse engineered by the darkspawn. But you would have to pay me as BioWare writers are paid.

I think I'd enjoy that. But can you tell me where they live?

In civilizations.

I missed the parts where you answered the religious hatred of mages

Gunpowder will make religions obsolete just like they did in our world. Because starting with gunpowder, people will develop technologies that will eventually make them stronger than gods.

the fact that mages can become abominations, and the fact that certain mages can control minds

They won't if you blow their head off with a gun. A gun that can be used by anyone.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 13 mai 2013 - 03:37 .

[Ravensword]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Qistina wrote...

It was Arabs who shape Europe....from science to bread and cheese....

The Turk never fall up to today, they only changed shape...Istanbul still stand proudly.....

Three things...

Actually never mind. You'll probably just counter with Aliens using magic to build a pyramid or something equally nonsensical.

No, aliens would've evolved beyond magic after developing superior technology, remember?

Ah of course how stupid of me.

Ah well I'm going to go use my internet connection to "magically" communicate with someone in real time.

Good choice.