599 réponses à ce sujet

[Althix]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
But you would have to pay me as BioWare writers are paid.

you can consider this as offence. but bioware writers doing their job well (most of the time). you however have only managed to show us a flawed ideas and even failed to defend them properly. i can't see why i or we should even consider to pay you.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 13 mai 2013 - 04:17 .

[hexaligned]

Qistina wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@iOnlySignIn: Yes, gunpowder allowed the European peoples to ruin the cultural progression of five continents.

Speaking as a non-European, I say the Europeans did a great thing. Instead of meaningless "cultural progression" they brought actual (technological, economic, and social) progress that made people's lives healthier and more productive.

Arabs do that long before Europeans, it is not Europeans who first created guns, it was Arabs, they learn it from Chinese, then European learn it and improvise then they "catch" the moment of history...

It was Arabs who shape Europe....from science to bread and cheese....

The Turk never fall up to today, they only changed shape...Istanbul still stand proudly.....

You are correct in the sense the Ottomans were once technologicaly progressive.  However while the West eventually ran with it ushering in the Enlightenment, zealous clerical/religious factions took firm control in the East, leading to stagnation and eventually complete collapse.  Empiracle and rational thought demonstratively and pragmaticaly make us more fit for survival.  The only reason Istanbul "still stands proudly", is because it is more efficient and beneficial for the West to manipulate and exploit them economicaly, than it would be to outright destroy them.  Which is harsh, but the mechanisms of survival always are.

[Silfren]

Dwarves don't have gunpowder, they have lyrium, and given how rare lyrium is andthat its primary value lies in its magical applications for templars and mages, I don't see it being redirected into developing equivalent explosive technology beyound the scale it already has been.

Sudden access to gunpowder isn't going to magically vanish widespread fear and hate of mages. It would, however, make it that much easier for the average person to enact violence against them. Disregarding, of course, that the nobility probably would not willingly tolerate guns in the hands of peasants. It MIGHT go over in Ferelden, but you wouldn't see it in Orlais. Also disregarding that mages with the ability to, I dunno, lob a fireball at a person wielding a gunpowder weapon...is considerably more dangerous than said weapon. As I said before, you haven't considered this through at all.

Mages of Thedas are NOT comparable to real world witches, whose so-called abilities have never been empirically proven to be anything more than superstition. You're deluding yourself if you believe any human being has ever existed who had the ability to conjure lightning, or trigger earthquakes, or hurl fireballs, all with the power of thought alone. As they exist in Thedas, however, they are not going to simply cease to exist--or evolve out of the population--simply because gun technology is developed. If you actually think this, you don't have the first clue how evolution works.

I'd go on, but I just realized that you're asserting that gunpowder will make religion obsolete. I just...I can't even...Wow.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 mai 2013 - 10:28 .

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Wait a sec, aren't magic and super advanced technology supposed to be the same thing?

Only if you follow the school of philosophical thought laid out by Arthur C. Clarke. I thought we were arguing within the bounds of Qistinology.

We were.  First they said that guns will make mages obsolete and stop being born (via evolution they don't believe in!) but then they said that magic and science were exactly the same thing.

Or maybe not.  There's so much batsh*t crazy in this thread I've lost track of which crazy belongs to whom.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]iOnlySignIn wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You've yet to address our point that magic is actually more dangerous than gunpowder
[/quote]
From what I've seen (apart from non-verifiable stories) of magic in Thedas, it's not. [/quote]

Then you haven't seen Connor, Avernus, or Uldred. Then there's the fireball spell. Rockets can do that, but gunpowder doesn't automatically mean people will think of rockets.

[quote]
[quote]
and harder to keep out of the wrong hands.
[/quote]
Negative. You can give guns to anyone.  You can't with magic. [/quote]

You don't seem to adknowledge that gun control is a thing. Once someone has magic, only the Circle knows how to get it out of them. And nobody can control who it manifests in. By comparison, keeping someone away from a gun is a fairly simple task if you have government power.

[quote]
[quote]
Gun control.
[/quote]
It's a rhetorical question, Einstein. [/quote]

My answer to which is relevant to your point, as stated above.

[quote]
[quote]
If dwarves have anything like gunpowder, it's probably the lyrium sand in Awakenings. And I get the feeling it was invented by its user. Thus, in living memory. As for golems, they cannot be reverse engineered, apparently. One can only assume the Tevinters tried.
[/quote]
If you pay me to write a similarly long explanation, I can perfectly explain how gunpowder technology cannot be reverse engineered by the darkspawn. But you would have to pay me as BioWare writers are paid. [/quote]

Similarly long to my three sentences above? I hope that's not what you mean, since I just finished a three page paper for which I'm not going to see a dime.

Nor does this answer the point about ogres and Archdemons that I mentioned above.

[quote]
[quote]
I think I'd enjoy that. But can you tell me where they live?
[/quote]
In civilizations. [/quote]

Are you talking Tevinter and Par Vollen? Maybe Orlais? They aren't civilized. At all.

[quote]
[quote]
I missed the parts where you answered the religious hatred of mages
[/quote]
Gunpowder will make religions obsolete just like they did in our world. Because starting with gunpowder, people will develop technologies that will eventually make them stronger than gods. [/quote]

The god that the Chantry worships is credited with crop failures and flooding that was convenient to his Prophet's cause. He is also said to have had a hand in the darkspawn, which don't have to freaking eat. We don't have anything more powerful than that.

That aside, I spent 13 years in Catholic schools, and my country's politicians are usually self-identified Christians. (Especially the ones I hate, but that is not central to my point.) Say I agreed with you that religion becomes obsolete due merely to gunpowder, or heck, even due to the internet, space shuttles, and predator drones. What does religion being obsolete have to do with it vanishing?

[quote]
[quote]
the fact that mages can become abominations, and the fact that certain mages can control minds
[/quote]
They won't if you blow their head off with a gun. A gun that can be used by anyone.[/quote]

I am given to understand that a human skull is strong enough that most headshots cause death via blood loss. No mage (let alone an abomination) with the proper training is easy to kill in that manner. Even if I'm wrong there (which is a distinct possibility) it can be difficult to draw the proper bead for a headshot. Especially when dealing with a creature that can kill you without technically knowing you exist. (Like Connor, for example.) Even non-abominations don't need to worry much if you miss the first shot, as until multi-shot guns become a thing you're likely to be dead four or five times before you can reload. Finally, Gaider has already said there's going to be no handheld firearms, which all of that presupposes. That means trying to aim a cannon at an abomination, or maybe even just a single mage. Either one of them can move out of the way while you're wheeling that thing around, or worse, take exception. Good luck.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Wait a sec, aren't magic and super advanced technology supposed to be the same thing?

Only if you follow the school of philosophical thought laid out by Arthur C. Clarke. I thought we were arguing within the bounds of Qistinology.

We were.  First they said that guns will make mages obsolete and stop being born (via evolution they don't believe in!) but then they said that magic and science were exactly the same thing.

Or maybe not.  There's so much batsh*t crazy in this thread I've lost track of which crazy belongs to whom.

Those two were Qistina's. The idea that guns are the answer to every problem (including bigotry and archdemons) was ionlysignin's.

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Wait a sec, aren't magic and super advanced technology supposed to be the same thing?

Only if you follow the school of philosophical thought laid out by Arthur C. Clarke. I thought we were arguing within the bounds of Qistinology.

We were.  First they said that guns will make mages obsolete and stop being born (via evolution they don't believe in!) but then they said that magic and science were exactly the same thing.

Or maybe not.  There's so much batsh*t crazy in this thread I've lost track of which crazy belongs to whom.

Those two were Qistina's. The idea that guns are the answer to every problem (including bigotry and archdemons) was ionlysignin's.

You've been keeping track?  I don't know whether to admire or pity you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

We were.  First they said that guns will make mages obsolete and stop being born (via evolution they don't believe in!) but then they said that magic and science were exactly the same thing.

Or maybe not.  There's so much batsh*t crazy in this thread I've lost track of which crazy belongs to whom.

Those two were Qistina's. The idea that guns are the answer to every problem (including bigotry and archdemons) was ionlysignin's.

You've been keeping track?  I don't know whether to admire or pity you.

It's something to do apart from my homework.

[Silfren]

secretsandlies wrote...

cheaper? hmm... i don't agree.
however "YEARS" of training for militia men (cannon fodder)? doubt that.

And you'd be wrong.  Archery and sword fighting require a FAR greater investment of time to develop proficiency.  Guns take a matter of weeks.

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

We were.  First they said that guns will make mages obsolete and stop being born (via evolution they don't believe in!) but then they said that magic and science were exactly the same thing.

Or maybe not.  There's so much batsh*t crazy in this thread I've lost track of which crazy belongs to whom.

Those two were Qistina's. The idea that guns are the answer to every problem (including bigotry and archdemons) was ionlysignin's.

You've been keeping track?  I don't know whether to admire or pity you.

It's something to do apart from my homework.

Yeah, that three page paper.  =)  I once wrote a fourteen page paper for a college history course.  Can't wrap my head around what people in these forums consider tl;dr

Modifié par Silfren, 13 mai 2013 - 10:35 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

It's something to do apart from my homework.

Yeah, that three page paper.  =)  I once wrote a fourteen page paper for a college history course.  Can't wrap my head around what people in these forums consider tl;dr

I don't remember ever going above ten pages. On the other hand, that one I mentioned was supposed to be far longer than it was.

[Zelto]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I explained already. Giving everyone a weapon more dangerous than magic will make magic no longer the most dangerous thing. It's the same as how the development of technologies such as gunpowder stopped superstitious behaviour such as witch hunts in our world. Seems almost tautological to me, but maybe not to
you.

But magic is more powerful: guns need to be produced, distributed, the people trained (briefly), ammo for starters, then add that you seem to assume they will instantly develop a M16 (which I still would say is inferior to a mage with a lightning storm but...), in reality you would have a weapon with a 20 second reload, a poor accuracy (which didn't matter in set battles but will against individuals), limited range, a 10% chance of exploding in your face
etc...

Witch hunts started in Europe in 1480, Firearms
were used in Europe in the 14th century. So clearly the two near perfectly coincide so your argument there
seems pretty baseless.

Why did't the invention of gunpowder make everyone shoot everyone they don't like on sight IRL? Have you considered that?

You have access to guns, yes? Why don't you shoot everyone you dislike (or think may be dangerous) on sight?

Nearly ever country in the world has controls on guns for this very reason, and those who don't tend to have high gun crime, so access to a gun results in some people shooting other they dislike. Therefore why would you not shoot a mage that you are afraid might mind control you/kill you/your family.

Have you seen a darkspawn who could read? A darkspawn craftsman? The dwarves have fought darkspawn the longest (for centuries upon centuries), and the dwarves have gunpowder, golems, and other sophisticated technologies. If darkspawn are capable of learning those they would have done it long ago, wouldn't they?

Darkspawn can't make weapons but they can scavenge off the dead. Not everyone killed will have ran out of ammo, therefore the darkspawn will get guns andammo, which aren't really that hard to work. If they can shoot bows they can
shoot guns.

That's my whole point. I wish (as a game's protagonist) to spread this technology across the civilized peoples of Thedas. I thought that much is obvious - I certainly haven't seen another poster in this thread who failed to grasp this point.

What go village to village. Otherwise its up too whoever you give the guns to how they are used. Give it to the Orlaisian Empress doesn't mean she will choose to even give it to her own peasants never mind the elves in Orlais, expand that across the whole world.

Modifié par Zelto, 14 mai 2013 - 03:37 .

[Medhia Nox]

Progressive Materialist Iconoclasts are as repugnant to me as the Fundamentalist Evangelical Religious.

Actually - I find Qistina far less dangerous than some of the psychopath "progressives" preaching their megalomania on this thread.

Be careful preaching about "might makes right" - one day, someone might wish to express their might over your rights - and who would you be to complain?

[Naitaka]

I agree, just as our own society have none of the problems in Thedas because of how much more advance our technologies are...oh wait. Nothing will be a magical silver bullet that solves all the problem in Thedas let alone the problem with mages. Heck, if I suddenly discovered the mean to make sure 100% that mages would never become abomination that still wouldn't have solved the problem. What about the people who doesn't believe me? What about those who have been wronged and are still seeking revenge?

[Boycott Bioware]

Naitaka wrote...
I agree, just as our own society have none of the problems in Thedas because of how much more advance our technologies are...oh wait. Nothing will be a magical silver bullet that solves all the problem in Thedas let alone the problem with mages. Heck, if I suddenly discovered the mean to make sure 100% that mages would never become abomination that still wouldn't have solved the problem. What about the people who doesn't believe me? What about those who have been wronged and are still seeking revenge?

because of you have bring upo about silver bullet, yes, silver bullet is a bane for magical person or beings.

it is true in many culture, maybe not in the form of bullets, but in many other forms such as knife, scissor, nail, rod, amulet....

I have been theorized about it, why silver?

My theory lead to....the extraterrestrials are beings of energy, so some metal may effect them. Somehow silver effect these beings maybe discharge, or disrupt, or creating resonances that harming them.

When extraterrestrials are near, usually the light bulb or neon will disrupted, TV disrupted, electronic things disrupted...we can use magnet to talk with extraterrestrials (Jinn, spirits, ghosts, alien), because they are beings of energy, must have some frequency and charges...so silver can effect these being.

My mom (and grandmother) used to say, to keep nail in the room, or scissor nearby bed, or metal work leftover, if don't want evil spirits come in. Nail and scissor have silver coating or mixture that not to make them rust...

Modifié par Qistina, 14 mai 2013 - 06:38 .

[ArcaneJTM]

Qistina wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
I agree, just as our own society have none of the problems in Thedas because of how much more advance our technologies are...oh wait. Nothing will be a magical silver bullet that solves all the problem in Thedas let alone the problem with mages. Heck, if I suddenly discovered the mean to make sure 100% that mages would never become abomination that still wouldn't have solved the problem. What about the people who doesn't believe me? What about those who have been wronged and are still seeking revenge?

because of you have bring upo about silver bullet, yes, silver bullet is a bane for magical person or beings.

it is true in many culture, maybe not in the form of bullets, but in many other forms such as knife, scissor, nail, rod, amulet....

Pretty sure that all mages in Thedas would be doomed to poverty if they were allergic to silver.  Not to mention it would make shopping as a mage character next to impossible. 

Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 14 mai 2013 - 06:48 .

[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...


because of you have bring upo about silver bullet, yes, silver bullet is a bane for magical person or beings.

it is true in many culture, maybe not in the form of bullets, but in many other forms such as knife, scissor, nail, rod, amulet....

I have been theorized about it, why silver?

My theory lead to....the extraterrestrials are beings of energy, so some metal may effect them. Somehow silver effect these beings maybe discharge, or disrupt, or creating resonances that harming them.

When extraterrestrials are near, usually the light bulb or neon will disrupted, TV disrupted, electronic things disrupted...we can use magnet to talk with extraterrestrials (Jinn, spirits, ghosts, alien), because they are beings of energy, must have some frequency and charges...so silver can effect these being.

My mom (and grandmother) used to say, to keep nail in the room, or scissor nearby bed, or metal work leftover, if don't want evil spirits come in. Nail and scissor have silver coating or mixture that not to make them rust...

True story, silver is really effective on magical beings. I killed a werewolf the other day with a silver knife.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

hhh89 wrote...


True story, silver is really effective on magical beings. I killed a werewolf the other day with a silver knife.

Pfft! Kill a Kraken and then we'll talk.

[The Elder King]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


True story, silver is really effective on magical beings. I killed a werewolf the other day with a silver knife.

Pfft! Kill a Kraken and then we'll talk.

Every monster hunter starts with something small. Give me some time.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

hhh89 wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


True story, silver is really effective on magical beings. I killed a werewolf the other day with a silver knife.

Pfft! Kill a Kraken and then we'll talk.

Every monster hunter starts with something small. Give me some time.

Heh that takes me back...
.
..
...
I was the only one to make it out alive.

[The Elder King]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


True story, silver is really effective on magical beings. I killed a werewolf the other day with a silver knife.

Pfft! Kill a Kraken and then we'll talk.

Every monster hunter starts with something small. Give me some time.

Heh that takes me back...
.
..
...
I was the only one to make it out alive.

Only the best survives in our world.

[Naitaka]

hhh89 wrote...

Qistina wrote...


because of you have bring upo about silver bullet, yes, silver bullet is a bane for magical person or beings.

it is true in many culture, maybe not in the form of bullets, but in many other forms such as knife, scissor, nail, rod, amulet....

I have been theorized about it, why silver?

My theory lead to....the extraterrestrials are beings of energy, so some metal may effect them. Somehow silver effect these beings maybe discharge, or disrupt, or creating resonances that harming them.

When extraterrestrials are near, usually the light bulb or neon will disrupted, TV disrupted, electronic things disrupted...we can use magnet to talk with extraterrestrials (Jinn, spirits, ghosts, alien), because they are beings of energy, must have some frequency and charges...so silver can effect these being.

My mom (and grandmother) used to say, to keep nail in the room, or scissor nearby bed, or metal work leftover, if don't want evil spirits come in. Nail and scissor have silver coating or mixture that not to make them rust...

True story, silver is really effective on magical beings. I killed a werewolf the other day with a silver knife.

Technically not true, in many werewolf lore those silver has to be inherited from your ancestor to have any effect on a werewolf and regular silver would be next to useless against them. Anyway this is certainly getting horribly off-topic.

[The Elder King]

Naitaka wrote...

hhh89 wrote...



True story, silver is really effective on magical beings. I killed a werewolf the other day with a silver knife.

Technically not true, in many werewolf lore those silver has to be inherited from your ancestor to have any effect on a werewolf and regular silver would be next to useless against them. Anyway this is certainly getting horribly off-topic.

Well, I never said that the silver knife was a regular one;).
Regardless, I agree on the bolded part, I'll stop with the jokes.

[Silfren]

Silver is not a bane to mages in Dragon Age, so why exactly is this myth--and it is a myth, as vampires and werewolves do not actually exist irl--being brought up? Mages aren't supernatural creatures in Thedas, they're people who have the capacity for magic but are otherwise normal.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Silfren wrote...

Silver is not a bane to mages in Dragon Age, so why exactly is this myth--and it is a myth, as vampires and werewolves do not actually exist irl--being brought up?

Qistina and all the assorted crazy that implies.