599 réponses à ce sujet

[Sjpelke]

MichaelStuart wrote...

While I disagree that gunpowder will solve problems, I do like the idea of seeing people actual trying to advance technology to try to solve problems.

See your point about that although is the setting not medieval and magick is what makes it more advanced in that setting?

The dwarves can work the lyrium and do not have magick which is the balance between them and the other races of Thedas.

[iOnlySignIn]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

 I'm sorry, but gunpowder is in no way comparable to magic. Gunpowder has a limited supply, magic just needs mana or blood. Gunpowder can only be used to blow things up or shoot things.  Magic can can be used to blow things up, zap people wit lightning, raise the dead, freeze people, paralyze people, and manipulate the laws of physics. 

Right. Mana and blood are both unlimitted in supply and gunpowder never developed into anything else such as steam power.

[iOnlySignIn]

MichaelStuart wrote...

While I disagree that gunpowder will solve problems, I do like the idea of seeing people actual trying to advance technology to try to solve problems.

That is good enough.

[Cainhurst Crow]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

No, the more intellegant darkspawn can't be reasoned with. Only awakened darkspawn can be reasoned with.

I don't know the distinction. Could you give an example of an intelligent but not awakened darkspawn that can't be reasoned with? Do you mean like Corypheus? I'm sure he can be reasoned with. He can speak fluently, and he's quite smart.

Alphas, Emissarys, and Omegas are all intellegant, powerful, and loyal beyond question. Each one able to coordinate their forces, create plans and strategies, and generally orginize forces in ways that demonstrate their intellegance.

Awakened Darkspawn can do all these things as well, but also communicate and reason outside of following their orders. Which makes them the most intellgant darkspawn, but so few in number, and so hard to come by, they aren't even part of the equation.

[Realmzmaster]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The suggestion you make will only result in an arms race. The Qunari will be force to make more devastating weapons because some nations will have both magic and gunpowder. Witness the fact that the USA had the Atomic Bomb, the USSR put a lot of resources into matching that advantage. That led to the USA to create the hydrogen bomb. Now the world has many ICBMs and atomic submarines with nuclear missiles.

Which lead to the longest period of major peace in modern history.

Also the Atomic Bomb is what ended WWII, not what started it.

Magic users will still be discriminated against. Groups are discriminated against because they are seen as different by the majority of society whether they be elves or magic users giving everyone gunpowder will not change that.

Yes, but not seen as a distinct danger. They will no longer be discriminated against more than say, Elves do, which is a major improvement IMO.

Your suggestion also means that magic users will have access to magic and gunpowder making them even more dangerous.

I think the lore will disallow simultaneous effective use of both, to keep different character classes (Mages and others) more distinct.

You also forget that some of the darkspawn are intelligent and could make use of gunpowder.

A very small minority of them.

Also, the intelligent ones can be reasoned with, and so are less dangerous and destructive to begin with.

The Long Peace was built on fear of MAD (mutually assured destruction) between the great powers during the Cold War. It also lead to minor powerrs seeking nuclear capability to the point that the major powers now fear a shift in the status quo. The collaspe of the USSR further threaten the status quo since it only existed as long as the major powers had control over thier nuclear stockpiles. 

Still did not stop the major pwers from interfering in Korea and Vietnam. The only reason why th earth is still here during the Cuban Missile Crisis is because both sides blinked. The USA had to remove its missles from Turkey and the USSR from Cuba

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_missile_crisis

This also meant that the major powers look into the use of chemical warfare that could devastate on a large scale without risking nuclear annililation and low grade themo nuclear weapons. The principle of MAD also required that no country would be able to achieve first strike capability which is why the USSR got upset with the proposed Star Wars technology and nuclear defense shield of the USA. It would allow the USA to survive a first strike and counter attack or launch a first strike. So the peace you have is based on fear which amounts to a very uneasy peace that could end at any minute.


It only takes a minority of darkspwan with gunpowder to cause mass destruction. Intelligent darkspawn can be reasoned with but that also makes them more dangerous not less because they can use guile and deception to lull the enemy into a false sense of security. The more intelligent a person the more devious that person can be.

So magic users get to be second class citizens or sub-humans like the elves. How is that better?

Why would the lore not allow magic users to have access to gun powder. There is nothing in the lore to prevent it. In fact in Awakening the warden can be a mage and get explosives from the bomb maker Dworkin based on lyrium dust. 

[Direwolf0294]

Fantasy worlds aren't normally allowed to technologically evolve. It sort of ruins the whole sword and sorcery, medieval themed thing.

Having said that, I'd love to see an Industrial Age game set at some point in DA's future.

[Fast Jimmy]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Fantasy worlds aren't normally allowed to technologically evolve. It sort of ruins the whole sword and sorcery, medieval themed thing.

Having said that, I'd love to see an Industrial Age game set at some point in DA's future.

I would actively campaign against this with every best of my heart and into my dying breath. 

For whatever that's worth. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

No, the more intellegant darkspawn can't be reasoned with. Only awakened darkspawn can be reasoned with.

I don't know the distinction. Could you give an example of an intelligent but not awakened darkspawn that can't be reasoned with? Do you mean like Corypheus? I'm sure he can be reasoned with. He can speak fluently, and he's quite smart.

On the surface, this sounds possible. On the other hand, the Wardens thought so too. In fact, I believe there's one who thinks so right up until she senses him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Fantasy worlds aren't normally allowed to technologically evolve. It sort of ruins the whole sword and sorcery, medieval themed thing.

Having said that, I'd love to see an Industrial Age game set at some point in DA's future.

I would actively campaign against this with every best of my heart and into my dying breath. 

For whatever that's worth. 

Unless you're in the majority, fairly little.

As to whether or not you are, I couldn't tell you. As for me, I'm not sure I'd mind playing something like this.

[Swagger7]

The Woldan wrote...

There are so many creative ways to make gunpowder a weapon of mass destruction, for a creative mind who has access to large amounts of explosives the sky's the limit.

Hey, who told you about my personal creedo? 

[Xilizhra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Fantasy worlds aren't normally allowed to technologically evolve. It sort of ruins the whole sword and sorcery, medieval themed thing.

Having said that, I'd love to see an Industrial Age game set at some point in DA's future.

I would actively campaign against this with every best of my heart and into my dying breath. 

For whatever that's worth. 

Er, why? Nothing's wrong with advancement.

Personally, I'm more interested in scientific treatment of magic and advancement there rather than in pure technology, but both are good. You can't stay in one technological age forever.

[Silfren]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Giving everyone effective gunpowder will solve all of the major problems of Thedas.

(1) Magic will no longer be descriminated against, as everyone can have access to something just as (if not more) dangerous.

(2) The Darkspawn will become trivial to deal with - we already see an example of this in DA2's quest involving Nathaniel.

(3) The Qunari no longer possess a distinct technological advantage. This will deter them from further aggression and stabilize the power balance.

(4) The effective use of gunpowder will lead to economic and technological advancement as well as geographical exploration, which will eventually dispel religious superstitions like what happened during the Renaissance in our world's Europe.

No, gunpowder won't solve all these problems. 

1. It's a bit silly to suggest that mages won't be discriminated against just because the world powers have access to gunpowder.  Did you even think this through at all? They'll still exist, they'll still be hated, they'll still have people demanding that they be segregated from the rest of the population and locked away.  What exactly will gunpowder do to change it?

2. Why would the darkspawn become trivial to deal with?  There's thousands upon thousands of them, and broodmothers aren't easy to get to to destroy.  Plus, in the real world, the earliest guns (and guns are older than many people realize) were EXTREMELY inefficient and unreliable, often being more of a danger to the person trying to shoot than any target.  I'd expect a fantasy setting's earliest gun technology to reflect this.

3. The Qunari--well, it MIGHT.  We don't actually know just how advanced the Qunari civilization is.  If the rest of Thedas developed gun technology tomorrow, it could well be so inferior to existing Qunari technology that it is anything but an equalizing force.  This theory is more likely than the others, but it still isn't a given, not in the early stages.

4. Well, this is one way that things could go, but not necessarily the only one. 

[Dave of Canada]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

(1) Magic will no longer be descriminated against, as everyone can have access to something just as (if not more) dangerous.

Not really. Gunpowder has to be manufactured, distributed and has limited applicability. 

(2) The Darkspawn will become trivial to deal with - we already see an example of this in DA2's quest involving Nathaniel.

I've never done that quest.

(3) The Qunari no longer possess a distinct technological advantage. This will deter them from further aggression and stabilize the power balance.

Would help but they're still stronger and more united than everyone else.

(4) The effective use of gunpowder will lead to economic and technological advancement as well as geographical exploration, which will eventually dispel religious superstitions like what happened during the Renaissance in our world's Europe.

It's not really helping the Qunari achieve such things, however.

[Silfren]

The Woldan wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
2. I don't see how gunpowder will be able to affect the flying archdemon, or how it will stop the darkspawn from simply amassing underground and attacking from below.

Large caliber cannons volley-firing at a massive target like a flying dragon? The archdemon and all the other dragons would be dead in seconds.

Darkspawn live in the deep roads? Cause massive cave-ins or systematically destroy the deep roads alltogether and deploy IED's at tunnel entrances and exists and they'll die by the thousands.

There are so many creative ways to make gunpowder a weapon of mass destruction, for a creative mind who has access to large amounts of explosives the sky's the limit.

Er, I'm fairly sure that whoever kills the archdemon needs to do it in close quarters, so that the tainted soul can pass into it as the nearest tainted body.  Or did you forget the extremely critical detail that not just anyone can permanently kill an archdemon? 

[iOnlySignIn]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Fantasy worlds aren't normally allowed to technologically evolve. It sort of ruins the whole sword and sorcery, medieval themed thing.

Having said that, I'd love to see an Industrial Age game set at some point in DA's future.

I would actively campaign against this with every best of my heart and into my dying breath. 

For whatever that's worth. 

Obviously very little.

[iOnlySignIn]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

No, the more intellegant darkspawn can't be reasoned with. Only awakened darkspawn can be reasoned with.

I don't know the distinction. Could you give an example of an intelligent but not awakened darkspawn that can't be reasoned with? Do you mean like Corypheus? I'm sure he can be reasoned with. He can speak fluently, and he's quite smart.

Alphas, Emissarys, and Omegas are all intellegant, powerful, and loyal beyond question. Each one able to coordinate their forces, create plans and strategies, and generally orginize forces in ways that demonstrate their intellegance.

I never get the sense that those darkspawn are more intelligent than, say, a queen bee. What they do always strike me as instinct rather than decision.

There is also the point that all darkspawn become disorganized and clueless once the Archdemon is slain. This suggests that they are a hive mind where all units except the Archdemon are of little intelligence or agency.

[Silfren]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

 I'm sorry, but gunpowder is in no way comparable to magic. Gunpowder has a limited supply, magic just needs mana or blood. Gunpowder can only be used to blow things up or shoot things.  Magic can can be used to blow things up, zap people wit lightning, raise the dead, freeze people, paralyze people, and manipulate the laws of physics. 

Right. Mana and blood are both unlimitted in supply and gunpowder never developed into anything else such as steam power.

Wow, you're hugely missing the point.  Gunpowder isn't going to make the world stop discriminating against mages, especially not ultra-primitive ones, which will be so inefficient as to be all but useless.  I'm an avid mage-supporter but even I can acknowledge the fact that guns are in no way equal to persons being able to rain down fire from the sky, trigger earthquakes, or boil the blood of multiple targets at once.  Plus, what I said before: mages will still be hated and feared, the sudden availability of guns isn't going to make that go away.  It WILL make it easier for non-Circle mages to be slaughtered out of hand, though.

[iOnlySignIn]

Realmzmaster wrote...

So the peace you have is based on fear which amounts to a very uneasy peace that could end at any minute.

It's the only kind of peace that lasts.

Intelligent darkspawn can be reasoned with but that also makes them more dangerous not less because they can use guile and deception to lull the enemy into a false sense of security. 

I don't think anyone will be feeling a sense of security around the darkspawn, no matter how lulled they are.

So magic users get to be second class citizens or sub-humans like the elves. How is that better?

Who do you think have more freedom in Thedas, Mages, or Elves?

Why would the lore not allow magic users to have access to gun powder. 

The same reason the lore does not allow magic users to use bows, arrows, daggers, traps, bombs, etc. in Dragon Age and most other fantasy game settings. Skyrim is an exception, not the norm.

[Xilizhra]

The same reason the lore does not allow magic users to use bows, arrows, daggers, traps, bombs, etc. in Dragon Age and most other fantasy game settings. Skyrim is an exception, not the norm.

That tends to be less "lore" than "game conceit." Skyrim is one of the few settings that makes sense in this regard.

[iOnlySignIn]

Dave of Canada wrote...

(3) The Qunari no longer possess a distinct technological advantage. This will deter them from further aggression and stabilize the power balance.

Would help but they're still stronger and more united than everyone else.

I think we are going to find out differently in DA3, if the Qun is in any way based on Islam.

We do not know that the Qunari came to invade Thedas entirely out of their own free will - I am willing to bet they did not. They likely have been driven out of their original homeland by a foe or a disaster.

(4) The effective use of gunpowder will lead to economic and technological advancement as well as geographical exploration, which will eventually dispel religious superstitions like what happened during the Renaissance in our world's Europe.

It's not really helping the Qunari achieve such things, however.

Well, they can't be the best at everything, right? That would be boring.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 10 mai 2013 - 02:35 .

[ArcaneJTM]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

(1) Magic will no longer be descriminated against, as everyone can have access to something just as (if not more) dangerous.

The Qunari have gunpower.  Or some kind of explosive powder at least.  Didn't exactly stop them from discriminating against mages, did it?

Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 10 mai 2013 - 02:35 .

[iOnlySignIn]

ArcaneJTM wrote...

The Qunari have gunpower.  Or some kind of explosive powder at least.  Didn't exactly stop them from discriminating against mages, did it?

They discriminate against everyone and everything, even themselves. So it's hard to argue there. I'll give you this one.

[Silfren]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...

The Qunari have gunpower.  Or some kind of explosive powder at least.  Didn't exactly stop them from discriminating against mages, did it?

They discriminate against everyone and everything, even themselves. So it's hard to argue there. I'll give you this one.

You don't have a compelling argument in the first place, I'm sorry to say.  You've yet to demonstrate at all how the presence of gunpower or guns themselves would make people stop discriminating against mages.  You just think it'll, uh, magically happen.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...

The Qunari have gunpower.  Or some kind of explosive powder at least.  Didn't exactly stop them from discriminating against mages, did it?

They discriminate against everyone and everything, even themselves. So it's hard to argue there. I'll give you this one.

You don't have a compelling argument in the first place, I'm sorry to say.  You've yet to demonstrate at all how the presence of gunpower or guns themselves would make people stop discriminating against mages.  You just think it'll, uh, magically happen.

I think the idea is that guns are as powerful as magic, which means that everyone will be superpowerful when guns become common. And then, when everyone's super, nobody will be.

The problem is that lords will probably institute gun control, for the same reason that mages are controlled. So then guns won't be easy to get, and apostates will still be the most powerful people except where the Templars are concerned. Not to mention that guns are less versatile than magic, and having fired a shotgun I can tell you from personal experience they're not that easy to use. Furthermore, mages can still go abomination and control minds. Guns cannot do these things, and I don't think anything short of a cannon can handle that first one. (Guns do not answer the second any more than a crossbow would.)

Edit: And this is without getting into the religious discrimination that mages face. Yes, the Chantry tries to make it clear that being magic is not innately sinful. Judging by Keili and Meredith, they fail a lot.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 mai 2013 - 03:10 .

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
(1) Magic will no longer be descriminated against, as everyone can have access to something just as (if not more) dangerous.

Gunpower lets you control minds?

Have you looked at the NRA has been up to recently? </zing>