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[ArcaneJTM]

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Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 10 mai 2013 - 03:41 .

[Silfren]

Saiphas85 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Sanunes wrote...

Honestly the orginal firearms aren't that effective, but what made them seem to be effective is a person who isn't trained was able to use a firearm better then a bow and arrow and it was faster to reload then a crossbow.  Most of the time the person died from wounds other then being shot such as infection or the internal damage, but who knows how the Darkspawn would react to something like that.

As far as being an equalizer for the mages, I could see the Arcane Duelist being kinda OP.

Bows were more efficient than early guns, more accurate and better at piercing armor, and with less chance of malfunctioning to injure the shooter.  So I don't know that early guns could have seemed to be more effective, despite the differences in skill training.  It hardly matters if unskilled people are able to use guns more easily than bows and arrows, if said guns are crap weapons compared to bows, and there are skilled archers available.

Silfren, the reason is mass production/time to train, remember it
took years to train a bowman vs the days or weeks to train an arquebus.
 Also with training comes cost, at this point there were not standing
armies of later years.  Additionally the arquebus was never solo, but
generally paired with units of pikemen

I'm aware that there is a huge difference in training--I alluded to as much.  However, this doesn't change the fact that bows and arrows DID trump early guns.  It was no contest; trained on a gun doesn't change that the earliest guns were not accurate, were difficult and time-consuming to re-load, and were prone to jamming or misfiring.  Obviously the balance eventually shifted, but it took kind of a while.  The OP suggestion seems to think that gun technology would materialize in fully superior form in Thedas, rather than undergoing hundreds of years of advancement.

And don't forget that Thedas already does have standing armies.

[Silfren]

double post sorry oops

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2013 - 03:50 .

[Boycott Bioware]

When technology become advanced, magic gone because what magic can do being replaced by technology.

Thedas will have hospitals, Spirit Healers are no longer needed. Thedas have canons and bombs, fire magic no longer needed. Thedas will have refrigerators and air-conditions, frost magic no longer needed. Thedas will have drugs and steroid, haste magic no longer needed. Thedas will advance in quantum physic, force magic and arcane magic no longer needed.

When magic is not needed, it will gone, replaced by technology. And if Mages are genetically inherited, the trait will gone because it no longer needed to survive.

So, to solve Mage problem, Thedas must have technological boost

[Enigmatick]

Qistina wrote...

When technology become advanced, magic gone because what magic can do being replaced by technology.

Thedas will have hospitals, Spirit Healers are no longer needed. Thedas have canons and bombs, fire magic no longer needed. Thedas will have refrigerators and air-conditions, frost magic no longer needed. Thedas will have drugs and steroid, haste magic no longer needed. Thedas will advance in quantum physic, force magic and arcane magic no longer needed.

When magic is not needed, it will gone, replaced by technology. And if Mages are genetically inherited, the trait will gone because it no longer needed to survive.

So, to solve Mage problem, Thedas must have technological boost

What?

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

Magic isn't going to disappear. It's a genetic trait that the lore has actually hinted as being on the increase.

Magic WAS involved in Anders' bomb. Either in its creation or its detonation or both.

If Thedas following our real life biology, genetic trait will gone to the offspring when it not needed.

For example, our ancestors have more resistance than us today because they live in harsh condition, not like us, we are indeed weaker than our ancestors

And if Evolution Theory being applied, when the organism no longer need certain trait, the trait gone...the Apes no longer having furs when evolved into human, if you believe such thing

.....Being born with the ability to shoot fireballs from your fingertips or knit someone's gaping chest wound back together is not exactly comparable to, say, being adapted to better survive a desert climate, or to breathe more efficiently at a higher elevation.  Evolution is something that happens over many, many, many years, by slowly adapting over time.  It isn't something that happens immediately in a single generation.  But, again, magical abilities in the context of Thedas mages don't exactly correlate. 

You are grossly mistaken if you think that the presence of gun technology is going to make mages cease being born.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2013 - 04:02 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Qistina wrote...

Magic isn't going to disappear. It's a genetic trait that the lore has actually hinted as being on the increase.

Magic WAS involved in Anders' bomb. Either in its creation or its detonation or both.

If Thedas following our real life biology, genetic trait will gone to the offspring when it not needed.

For example, our ancestors have more resistance than us today because they live in harsh condition, not like us, we are indeed weaker than our ancestors

And if Evolution Theory being applied, when the organism no longer need certain trait, the trait gone...the Apes no longer having furs when evolved into human, if you believe such thing

That is a slight oversimplification. What really happens is that traits disappear if they cause a disadvantage to the possessor that leads to them being less able to reproduce, whereas traits that help in that regard thrive and neutral traits usually do okay. Which means that if magic followed that rule, it would be extinct outside Tevinter due to the Circle system.

Edit: I'm probably oversimplfying too, so feel free to correct me if I missed something relevant.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 mai 2013 - 04:10 .

[ArcaneJTM]

The ability to control minds is something every person with less than perfect morals is after even in RL. Blood magic provides this in Thedas, thus there will always be a demand for it. This fact alone is enough to say that magic would never simply disappear just because people have boomsticks.

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Magic isn't going to disappear. It's a genetic trait that the lore has actually hinted as being on the increase.

Magic WAS involved in Anders' bomb. Either in its creation or its detonation or both.

If Thedas following our real life biology, genetic trait will gone to the offspring when it not needed.

For example, our ancestors have more resistance than us today because they live in harsh condition, not like us, we are indeed weaker than our ancestors

And if Evolution Theory being applied, when the organism no longer need certain trait, the trait gone...the Apes no longer having furs when evolved into human, if you believe such thing

That is a slight oversimplification. What really happens is that traits disappear if they cause a disadvantage to the possessor that leads to them being less able to reproduce, whereas traits that help in that regard thrive and neutral traits usually do okay. Which means that if magic followed that rule, it would be extinct outside Tevinter due to the Circle system.

Edit: I'm probably oversimplfying too, so feel free to correct me if I missed something relevant.

I think you're a lot closer to the mark. This whole conversation actually reminds me back when people were still trying to get a grasp of the concept of evolution and believed such things as getting your arm amputated meant that any children born to you were likely to be born without an arm. 

Rather than there being some mystical force that says "since you don't need this trait, I'll breed it out you,"  Evolution is a brutal mistress: the reason that traits not suited to a species' survival don't get passed on is simply because those undesirable traits get the animal killed before it is able to breed, eliminating the chance of the trait getting passed.  Over enough generations, animals carrying those undesirable traits become less and less common, until they're finally just gone. 

Of course I'm oversimplifying, too, probably; it's not always boiled down to surviving long enough to pass on good genes/dying before bad genes can enter the gene pool, I don't think.  I don't know how rogue/mutant genes fit into the equation.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2013 - 04:27 .

[Deebo305]

Such a technological advance like the use of firearms will happen eventually if Dragon Age continues because it is an ever evolving world and it may take a Fable-esque style someday but no time soon not that there would be anything wrong with seeing pistol or musket carrying rouges It would kinda remind me of AC Brotherhood

[Mass Fraud]

[quote]iOnlySignIn wrote...

[quote]Realmzmaster wrote...

[quote]
Your suggestion also means that magic users will have access to magic and gunpowder making them even more dangerous.
[/quote]
I think the lore will disallow simultaneous effective use of both, to keep different character classes (Mages and others) more distinct.
[/quote]

Are you trying to argue for guns to be in the DA games?
If thats the case than Dragon Age will die out and no one will play them again.
DA is "fantasy" themed franchise, not modern.<_<

[Silfren]

Mass Fraud wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Your suggestion also means that magic users will have access to magic and gunpowder making them even more dangerous.

I think the lore will disallow simultaneous effective use of both, to keep different character classes (Mages and others) more distinct.

Are you trying to argue for guns to be in the DA games?
If thats the case than Dragon Age will die out and no one will play them again.
DA is "fantasy" themed franchise, not modern.<_<

Guns themselves aren't modern.

I don't want guns in my rpg's either, as I prefer the stylistic tone that comes with swords and archery weapons, but it does need to be said that guns need not be antithetical to fantasy.  Guns are NOT a modern invention; weapons categorized as guns go back a thousand years.

I also wanna add that "fantasy" itself =/=  pre-modern, or whatever you meant to suggest.  Harry Potter is pure fantasy, but it's also quite modern.  You meant that Dragon Age is set in a medieval-esque world for its fantasy, I know, but it never hurts to be specific, so that you don't go claiming that only stories set in pre-Industrial settings can properly be classed as fantasy.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2013 - 05:36 .

[Mass Fraud]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Fantasy worlds aren't normally allowed to technologically evolve. It sort of ruins the whole sword and sorcery, medieval themed thing.

Having said that, I'd love to see an Industrial Age game set at some point in DA's future.

I would actively campaign against this with every best of my heart and into my dying breath. 

For whatever that's worth. 

I would join you as well.
If in fact guns were implimented in DA, I would stop being playing and never touch another DA ever again.

[Boycott Bioware]

Silfren wrote...
.....Being born with the ability to shoot fireballs from your fingertips or knit someone's gaping chest wound back together is not exactly comparable to, say, being adapted to better survive a desert climate, or to breathe more efficiently at a higher elevation. Evolution is something that happens over many, many, many years, by slowly adapting over time. It isn't something that happens immediately in a single generation. But, again, magical abilities in the context of Thedas mages don't exactly correlate.

You are grossly mistaken if you think that the presence of gun technology is going to make mages cease being born.

In world of Thedas, evolution may happen in just one night, look at Broodmothers, they got mutated and then produce new life form with new genetic trait. It is just drakspwan cannot procreate in normal form, if they can they can they will pass on their genetic trait to their offspring, and that is actually not impossible, they only need female darkspawns.

Maybe the need of female darkspawns, the broodmothers will start producing female darkspawns to ensure darkspawn survival. Evolution is about need or not need. If the organism need something to survive, the gene created, if not, the gene disappear. Well, that what i understand about evolution, i don't believe in anyway lol

Mages born with magical genetic because they need magic to survive, they are naturally selected to have that genetic, when the world is in condition where magic is needed, more Mages will born, if the world no longer need magic to survive, no Mages will born.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
That is a slight oversimplification. What really happens is that traits disappear if they cause a disadvantage to the possessor that leads to them being less able to reproduce, whereas traits that help in that regard thrive and neutral traits usually do okay. Which means that if magic followed that rule, it would be extinct outside Tevinter due to the Circle system.

Edit: I'm probably oversimplfying too, so feel free to correct me if I missed something relevant.

The Apes started to create clothes and wear them, the fur is no longer needed to keep body warm. Apes also learn to create fire. Apes starting to create spears and weapons, so fangs and claws no longer needed to protect self.

Evolution of man is actually de-evolution, human is weaker than it's predecessor, it is because human body have throw away everything that needed to survive the environment, human use something to replace what their body can produce to survive.

Maybe in the future human will lost legs because we use vehicles to move around, human will lost many parts of their body because it is all replaced by things to survive. How many peoples nowadays are fat, slow and dumb because everyday they only eat cheese burgers and playing MMOs? The genetic will pass on....Well, that is as according to Evolution Theory....lol

Modifié par Qistina, 10 mai 2013 - 05:59 .

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

Silfren wrote...
.....Being born with the ability to shoot fireballs from your fingertips or knit someone's gaping chest wound back together is not exactly comparable to, say, being adapted to better survive a desert climate, or to breathe more efficiently at a higher elevation. Evolution is something that happens over many, many, many years, by slowly adapting over time. It isn't something that happens immediately in a single generation. But, again, magical abilities in the context of Thedas mages don't exactly correlate.

You are grossly mistaken if you think that the presence of gun technology is going to make mages cease being born.

In world of Thedas, evolution may happen in just one night, look at Broodmothers, they got mutated and then produce new life form with new genetic trait. It is just drakspwan cannot procreate in normal form, if they can they can they will pass on their genetic trait to their offspring, and that is actually not impossible, they only need female darkspawns.

Maybe the need of female darkspawns, the broodmothers will start producing female darkspawns to ensure darkspawn survival. Evolution is about need or not need. If the organism need something to survive, the gene created, if not, the gene disappear. Well, that what i understand about evolution, i don't believe in anyway lol

........You make an argument using evolution to defend your idea, and then you say you don't believe in evolution? What are you, twelve?

Evolution DOES. NOT. HAPPEN. OVERNIGHT.  

Mages born with magical genetic because they need magic to survive, they are naturally selected to have that genetic, when the world is in condition where magic is needed, more Mages will born, if the world no longer need magic to survive, no Mages will born.

Again, I haven't seen anything to indicate that magic works the same way as real world evolutionary traits.  But I'm mystified as to why you're making an argument about a biological process you just admitted not to believing in. 

The Apes started to create clothes and wear them, the fur is no longer needed to keep body warm. Apes also learn to create fire. Apes starting to create spears and weapons, so fangs and claws no longer needed to protect self.

Evolution of man is actually de-evolution, human is weaker than it's predecessor, it is because human body have throw away everything that needed to survive the environment, human use something to replace what their body can produce to survive.

Maybe in the future human will lost legs because we use vehicles to move around, human will lost many parts of their body because it is all replaced by things to survive. How many peoples nowadays are fat, slow and dumb because everyday they only eat cheese burgers and playing MMOs? The genetic will pass on....Well, that is as according to Evolution Theory....lol

......You're not even trying to have an intelligent discussion.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2013 - 06:07 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Silfren wrote...
.... But I'm mystified as to why you're making an argument about a biological process you just admitted not to believing in.

it's just academic...

[Keeper of Light]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Giving everyone effective gunpowder will solve all of the major problems of Thedas.

(1) Magic will no longer be descriminated against, as everyone can have access to something just as (if not more) dangerous.

(2) The Darkspawn will become trivial to deal with - we already see an example of this in DA2's quest involving Nathaniel.

(3) The Qunari no longer possess a distinct technological advantage. This will deter them from further aggression and stabilize the power balance.

(4) The effective use of gunpowder will lead to economic and technological advancement as well as geographical exploration, which will eventually dispel religious superstitions like what happened during the Renaissance in our world's Europe.

NO! <_<

Modifié par Darksiders2, 10 mai 2013 - 06:17 .

[Mass Fraud]

Qistina wrote...

Silfren wrote...
.... But I'm mystified as to why you're making an argument about a biological process you just admitted not to believing in.

it's just academic...

*facepalm*<_<

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

Silfren wrote...
.... But I'm mystified as to why you're making an argument about a biological process you just admitted not to believing in.

it's just academic...

No, it's really not, because you obviously don't know much about how evolution works and seem to think that evolution just magically happens when a need suddenly arises.  It's not that simple at all.  Take your example of darkspawn breeding. 

Firstly darkspawn have always produced in the same way, so far as we know.   The broodmother is the only type of female darkspawn (though truly they aren't darkspawn at all, but ghouls), and she is never a darkspawn from the start anyway.  Broodmothers are created by forcibly transforming women of other races, who then reproduce (male) darkspawn in mass numbers.  This process is rather outside the bounds of evolutionary principles.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2013 - 06:49 .

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Fantasy worlds aren't normally allowed to technologically evolve. It sort of ruins the whole sword and sorcery, medieval themed thing.

Having said that, I'd love to see an Industrial Age game set at some point in DA's future.

I would actively campaign against this with every best of my heart and into my dying breath. 

For whatever that's worth. 

While I dunno if I'd support Direwolf's thing, I can say I do support scientific advancement. I don't mind fantasy worlds having more technological aspects with each iteration, but I can't stand say... modern settings have fantasy elements -- one of the reasons I dislike the whole "Vampires in 20th century" schtick.

And surprisingly, I'm not referring to Twilight. It's more Underworld that I'm referring to, not for its story but just the setting. Or maybe just because the setting -- and Werewolves -- of the first Underworld movie looked like ****.

Rise of the Lycans I liked.

Still hate Twilight though.

Um... back on topic. Guns in DA for Thedas? The Chantry would probably stand diametrically opposed to such a thing. Empress Celene, from what I believe is her character, might support it.

EDIT: Though Final Fantasy I always enjoy, because it manages to seamlessly blend fantasy and technology together.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2013 - 07:00 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Fantasy worlds aren't normally allowed to technologically evolve. It sort of ruins the whole sword and sorcery, medieval themed thing.

Having said that, I'd love to see an Industrial Age game set at some point in DA's future.

I would actively campaign against this with every best of my heart and into my dying breath. 

For whatever that's worth. 

While I dunno if I'd support Direwolf's thing, I can say I do support scientific advancement. I don't mind fantasy worlds having more technological aspects with each iteration, but I can't stand say... modern settings have fantasy elements -- one of the reasons I dislike the whole "Vampires in 20th century" schtick.

And surprisingly, I'm not referring to Twilight. It's more Underworld that I dislike, not for its story but just the setting. Or maybe just because the setting -- and Werewolves -- of the first Underworld movie looked like ****.

Rise of the Lycans I liked.

Um... back on topic. Guns in DA for Thedas? The Chantry would probably stand diametrically opposed to such a thing. Empress Celene, from what I believe is her character, might support it.

I reaaaaalllly don't want guns in DA.  I'm all for technological advancement, but that could mean any number of things beyond guns.  I don't like 'em in general, but for the purpose of the DA narrative I think they'd change the flavor of the setting, and that's what I don't particularly want.

My personal feelings aside, however, there's still plenty of reasons why forward-thinking individuals might want to advance Thedosian technology.

How 'bout developing some airships to replace griffons?  Not that anyone could ever replace a griffon...

The next story better have griffons in it.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2013 - 06:59 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Mass Fraud wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Silfren wrote...
.... But I'm mystified as to why you're making an argument about a biological process you just admitted not to believing in.

it's just academic...

*facepalm*<_<

Someone should start a drinking game where everyone takes a shot when someone fails at science. The only problem is that a single post from Qistina would probably be enough to cause alcohol poisoning. *snerk*

[Mass Fraud]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Mass Fraud wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Silfren wrote...
.... But I'm mystified as to why you're making an argument about a biological process you just admitted not to believing in.

it's just academic...

*facepalm*<_<

Someone should start a drinking game where everyone takes a shot when someone fails at science. The only problem is that a single post from Qistina would probably be enough to cause alcohol poisoning. *snerk*

lol I love drinking games like that.

[philippe willaume]

well fantasy worlds are made of society that can not work, weapons that can not exist and stuff that is outside "the laws of physics, Jim".
We might as well say that darkspawn is nothing more that lateral gene transfer....


For gun powder well it can be based on early medieval hand-gunes.
Ie not really practical to be lugged aboutm, so really no usable for by the player or may be in siege/castle defence..

if that the case please use
http://en.wikipedia....the_Middle_Ages
especially breach loading swivel guns

phil