599 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

No guns nor gunpowder. End of discussion. Move along people, there is nothing to see here.

[Deebo305]

It funny how people seem to think guns means Uzi's and Assault Rifles when we are really talking about early pistols and muskets whichs were weapons that were developed even while swords were still in use and preferred by many. The Qunari already have the powder but if say the Orlesian get their hand on then you'll most likely see muskets pop up in DA. Saying the world should never technologically evolve and remain stagnate is rather foolish but I doubt we'll see it get to that point not until Flemeth actually dies

[Jackums]

I think someone is missing one huge problem with this scenario...

DEMONS WITH GUNPOWDER.

[ImperatorMortis]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

 I'm sorry, but gunpowder is in no way comparable to magic. Gunpowder has a limited supply, magic just needs mana or blood. Gunpowder can only be used to blow things up or shoot things.  Magic can can be used to blow things up, zap people wit lightning, raise the dead, freeze people, paralyze people, and manipulate the laws of physics. 

Right. Mana and blood are both unlimitted in supply and gunpowder never developed into anything else such as steam power.

Mana, and Blood rejuvinates naturally. And I'd love to see gunpowder make as big an explosion as Anders's magical bomb. 

Also your earlier post talking about how if technology progresses magic won't be needed is pure bull ****. You do know that magic progresses as well as technology right? Also how is a hospital anywhere comparable to simply
 casting a spell to heal wounds, and cure the sick. 

Hospitals require tons of resources, and time. Anders was able to heal huge amounts of sick people by himself just by using magic. Also lol at comparing a gun to stuff like crushing a person with your mind, and shooting fireballs. 

Ever play Bioshock? Theirs tons of guns in there, but guess what? The plasmids(magic) is still better! Also I'm pretty sure mages would develop magical shields/armor than can block bullets atleast somewhat. Also what about mass effect, and biotics?

Its pretty much the same thing though not as versatile as Thedas's magic. And Mass effect is set in the far future. I'm sorry, but magic is just plain superior. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 10 mai 2013 - 01:39 .

[Joy Divison]

Silfren wrote...

I'm aware that there is a huge difference in training--I alluded to as much.  However, this doesn't change the fact that bows and arrows DID trump early guns.  It was no contest; trained on a gun doesn't change that the earliest guns were not accurate, were difficult and time-consuming to re-load, and were prone to jamming or misfiring.  Obviously the balance eventually shifted, but it took kind of a while.  The OP suggestion seems to think that gun technology would materialize in fully superior form in Thedas, rather than undergoing hundreds of years of advancement.

And don't forget that Thedas already does have standing armies.

In battle skill is much more important than performance. In a single battle, you might lose the army that took you a decade to train.  Mine take two weeks to train.

@Swagger7 - even if what you have there is true (which I'm dubious, just about *every* comparision between bows and firearms I've seen has quality bows with a greater lethality than guns until the 1700s.  I'm no physicist so I can't exactly run a test in my basement), the far superior rate of fire of the longbowman will make him a deadlier battlefield combatant.

@OP

1, Mages are not discriminated against solely because they have power.  It's been awhile since I've read the relevant codexes, but my recollection is that demons and religious canon are the primary reasons.

2. Don't remember the Nathaniel quest.  How do primitive firearms, which the intelligent darkspawn could probably employ themselves, make them a trivial threat?

3. We don't know why the Qunari invaded Thedas.  We do know from thousands of years of human history that military technological parity does not deter aggression.  When the Qunari and Fereldans aquire nuclear weapons, we'll revisit your analogy.

4. Who says science and religion are incompatible?. 

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

Actually in our real world, the people of the past use magic, the Pharaohs, the Mayans, ancient civilizations, they use magic. Human was using magic in everyday life, until the civilization collapse and the knowledge lost.

What we call as science is actually a part of the whole knowledge, since we are advance in science, magic have lost it's purpose. How do you think the Egyptians manage to build pyramids that modern technology failed to imitate? They use magic and the extraterrestrials. Moses not only fought the Pharaoh but also the magicians, the magicians was the scientists.

"Science" is a modern terminology, in ancient time magic is science.

When one part of the knowledge expanding, the other degraded. magic today being perceived as something "unscientific", "hocus pocus", "joke", "entertainment", "do not exist", "religion", 'belief"...while actually the secret society using the ancient knowledge to rule the world....people believe what the school teach them about science while these guys behind the shadow use the knowledge of the Pharaohs

So, magic and science is actually the same, it is just what you want to believe in

.....No.  No, not even a little tiny bit.  NO.

[Fast Jimmy]

JackumsD wrote...

I think someone is missing one huge problem with this scenario...

DEMONS WITH GUNPOWDER.

That sounds like an AWESOME Heavy Metal album name. 

[Boycott Bioware]

Silfren wrote...
.....No. No, not even a little tiny bit. NO.

Look here, i am living miles away from your home, but we can communicate here in seconds, in ancient times they use crystal orb, today we use internet, it's the same thing

I can make you angry, laughing, sad, mad..i can manipulate your emotion from miles away.

It's magic

Do you know what actually send my message here from the east to the west? You may call it electrical signals, do we see these "electrical signals"? We don't see them but yet it exist, it move from my broadband USB flew to the satelite in outer space to your computer...but you feel ME being infront of you as we communicate.

Only magic do that.

Science and magic is the same thing

[Beerfish]

Good old Javarrus Tintop was well ahead of his time. Too bad the horned devils swindled him.

[Zelto]

Qistina wrote...

Look here, i am living miles away from your home, but we can communicate here in seconds, in ancient times they use crystal orb, today we use internet, it's the same thing

I can make you angry, laughing, sad, mad..i can manipulate your emotion from miles away.

It's magic

Do you know what actually send my message here from the east to the west? You may call it electrical signals, do we see these "electrical signals"? We don't see them but yet it exist, it move from my broadband USB flew to the satelite in outer space to your computer...but you feel ME being infront of you as we communicate.

Only magic do that.

Science and magic is the same thing

Ok I think you are confusing the saying "Any sufficiently advanced technology appears to be magic to a more primitive race/species" with Magic=Technology. It doesn't.

Also, they didn't communicate using crystal orbs, lord of the rings isn't a historical recreation...

[Boycott Bioware]

Some of us don't believe in magic, it is because we are all being brainwashed or being put ideas about what is magic and what is science through school, university, cartoons, animes, medias, magic trick show ect...it is become common where magic is something illogical, cannot be comprehended by our brain...while actually our everyday life involved magic. What we called as "science" is actually "magic"

Magic is the whole pie, science is just 1/3 of the pie. In this world many things cannot be explained by science, why? Because it is just 1/3 of the whole knowledge.

Things that can be justified by science but cannot be explained we call them as science fiction such as warp speed, worm hole, teleportation, time machine...and such thing. Do you guys know that it is really exist and it is called MAGIC?

"The Ancient Knowledge" that being talked about by the paranoids, truth seekers, conspiracy theories, alien hunters is actually in front of you....and you are using it now

[garrusfan1]

it depends on what they do with it but I don't think it would fix everything look at real life it just makes killing eachother easier.
also the qunari would still invade they follow a fanatical religous doctrine so whether invading would work or not.
the real fear of magic is the mind control which is used by blood magic which is why it is so feared.
darkspawn would still be a major threat because there is so many they will overwhelm. remember they would at best have cannons and muskets the russians overwhelemed the germans who had machine guns that fired over a thousand rounds a mintue. also killing the archdemon can only be killed by a gray warden and it would take alot to kill

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

DEMONS WITH GUNPOWDER.

They're strong physically and you need lots of bullets to kill them.. while one demon can carry a canon in his left hand and a rifle in his right. Now YOU are screwed!

[AppealToReason]

Lord no. please no. I've already have Fable's latter instalments ruined by guns. Please no guns.

[Sutekh]

Qistina wrote...

<snip>

Do you know what actually send my message here from the east to the west? You may call it electrical signals, do we see these "electrical signals"? We don't see them but yet it exist, it move from my broadband USB flew to the satelite in outer space to your computer...but you feel ME being infront of you as we communicate.

Only magic do that.

Science and magic is the same thing

Unlike magic, electrical signals are objectively measurable. Direct observation doesn't always mean "seeing things". Most of the time, it means measuring them. And when you can't, measuring their effect (indirect observation), as for black holes, dark matter, or even gravity before the invention of gravimetry. Without gravimeters, we know gravity exists not because we can see it (or smell it, or hear it), but because we can observe its effect. It doesn't mean gravity is magic. It means it's something that just needs one more step to be observed.

When you can't observe, you have either a (yet-to-be-proved-if-ever) theory, when the maths are sound, but the observation is lacking due to either non-existence or technological restrictions, e.g. string theory, or a simple matter of faith. And the latter is not debatable.

The real difference between internet connection and ancient orb communication, is that I could show you the measurements of electricity and / or radiowaves involved. You can't show me an ancient orb, and, beyond that, there is nothing indicating such long distance communications ever happened, such as long distance cultural exchanges, similarities in languages and so on. No indirect observation either. It's not 100% impossible. Just very, very unlikely.

In short, no, internet isn't magic, and magic isn't science.

On the same note, you're free to believe in magic of the Ancient, alien Moses or anything, really. I do respect that. Just don't tell us we've been brainwashed because we don't.

On topic:

I don't believe gunpowder would solve any of the problems mentioned (except, maybe, the Qunari), and it would not translate well in Thedas setting (and the game / gameplay). I'd reserve that for another franchise entirely, a steampunk one, or maybe a spinoff, as in "Six Centuries Later..."

[garrusfan1]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

DEMONS WITH GUNPOWDER.

They're strong physically and you need lots of bullets to kill them.. while one demon can carry a canon in his left hand and a rifle in his right. Now YOU are screwed!

a magical cannon that reloads by itself. yeah this would make me fear demons and abominations much more then now considering if I miss I am SOL to the extreme

[hexaligned]

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Magic isn't going to disappear. It's a genetic trait that the lore has actually hinted as being on the increase.

Magic WAS involved in Anders' bomb. Either in its creation or its detonation or both.

If Thedas following our real life biology, genetic trait will gone to the offspring when it not needed.

For example, our ancestors have more resistance than us today because they live in harsh condition, not like us, we are indeed weaker than our ancestors

And if Evolution Theory being applied, when the organism no longer need certain trait, the trait gone...the Apes no longer having furs when evolved into human, if you believe such thing

That is a slight oversimplification. What really happens is that traits disappear if they cause a disadvantage to the possessor that leads to them being less able to reproduce, whereas traits that help in that regard thrive and neutral traits usually do okay. Which means that if magic followed that rule, it would be extinct outside Tevinter due to the Circle system.

Edit: I'm probably oversimplfying too, so feel free to correct me if I missed something relevant.

I think you're a lot closer to the mark. This whole conversation actually reminds me back when people were still trying to get a grasp of the concept of evolution and believed such things as getting your arm amputated meant that any children born to you were likely to be born without an arm. 

Rather than there being some mystical force that says "since you don't need this trait, I'll breed it out you,"  Evolution is a brutal mistress: the reason that traits not suited to a species' survival don't get passed on is simply because those undesirable traits get the animal killed before it is able to breed, eliminating the chance of the trait getting passed.  Over enough generations, animals carrying those undesirable traits become less and less common, until they're finally just gone. 

Of course I'm oversimplifying, too, probably; it's not always boiled down to surviving long enough to pass on good genes/dying before bad genes can enter the gene pool, I don't think.  I don't know how rogue/mutant genes fit into the equation.

They fit into the equation by directly contradicting what you said in your earlier post.  Small segments of a species that have fitness nuetral phenotypes can become the dominant expression (or only left existing), after sudden changes to the enviroment that changes selection pressure.  What you are describing is anagenesis, which is a mechanic of evolution, but not the only one.

On topic though:  It always strikes me as a little jarring in low magic settings when tech progression is underexpressed.  It doesn't have to be gunpowder (although that would make sense as it's already introduced), but people do not have easy or reliable access to magic to solve their problems, or make their societies more efficient and more powerful.  Humans being humans they should be pursuing that, by any and all means. 

Modifié par relhart, 10 mai 2013 - 06:16 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Sutekh wrote...
Unlike magic, electrical signals are objectively measurable.

What you guys must understand is Science IS Magic. What we call as science today is only a part of the whole.

Empirical study is just METHOD to learn, investigate, and find answers of things. It is what we called as "scientific method". get some things to the lab, examine it, study it and so on...the way we study the thing is empirical. That is NOT the science, it just a method to learn and find answers.Theory is something that we assume or believe but not yet be proven, if not, you can keep it or throw it away or making amends or whatever.

But Magic is mathematics, it is everything you see, touch, smell, hear, everything in the great matrix. I mean, this world. Science is to study the nature of things, magic is to manipulate things. What things can be manipulated? Everything.

So you think seeing people floating in the air is impossible, unexplained, not a science, illogical, must be a trick, camera trick, CGI ect?

In science you only know that when north side magnet meet with other north side magnet it will push away each other right? That is what you know in SCIENCE, but what do you know about the other 2/3 of the knowledge? You don't know because you only know 1/3 of the knowledge being taught to you. You only being taught north side and south side of magnet, do you know other sides as well?

You know about gravity, do you know other than gravity that work? You don't know, because you only know about gravity. So when you see things floating in the air, anti-gravity, you can't accept it, you say your eyes is tricking you, or the magician using trick, if you watch from you tube you say it is fake, the video being tampered and so on...the scientists will say it is against scientific law...you cannot accept it because the world you live in is the world that being shaped by science you being taught in school and university

just imagine, if this forum have chat room, i can communicate with you guys right now, at this moment, at this second...how it is possible while i am living in the east thousands miles away at different time zone? You may call "it is science because electrical signals ect ect ect"...but i ask you, how come the thing move in nanoseconds from here to your place? What i wrote being sent to you right after i hit "enter"..if i am using camera and microphone i can talk with you guys directly.....measurable? Measurable my ****

It's magic

Magic do the same way, you don't believe it because you never experience it. the knowledge is kept hidden from you, even if it is exposed, you still can't accept it, because you live in the world of science...crystal ball/orb is just one of the tool, we can use many things such as a bowl of water. It will be the same with using computer and internet, except that you don't need to pay the bill.

So, in Thedas it will be the same, when technology boom, magic is gone, and people believe about magic is as we today believe about magic

[Joy Divison]

^^^ If there is an afterlife, Arthur C. Clarke is most assuredly saying, "That's not what I said."

[Sutekh]

Qistina wrote...

You know about gravity, do you know other than gravity that work? You don't know, because you only know about gravity.

There is, right now, a very serious experimentation going on about anti-gravity. Unconclusive so far, but still running. 

You seem to have a very narrow vision of science as a static thing established forever while it's evolving constantly. There are actually theories very seriously considered that would sound craziest than the Alien Legacy or Ancient Orbs. Multi-dimensions, brane universes, string theory, quantum mechanics, infinite Earth clones and so on... Scientists always re-examine, re-evaluate and challenge their own knowledge. What they don't do is handwave away what doesn't suit their beliefs with a "because it's science" thing. If it doesn't fit, they go back to work.

just imagine, if this forum have chat room, i can communicate with you guys right now, at this moment, at this second...how it is possible while i am living in the east thousands miles away at different time zone? You may call "it is science because electrical signals ect ect ect"...but i ask you, how come the thing move in nanoseconds from here to your place?
What i wrote being sent to you right after i hit "enter"..if i am using camera and microphone i can talk with you guys directly.....measurable? Measurable my ****

It's magic

No it's not. First, it doesn't take nanoseconds but milliseconds, sometimes longer. It's fast, but not that fast. It seems instantaneous because we aren't equipped to "feel" milliseconds, but it still takes time. Back in the days of slow internet, you'd have felt it, believe me. Even then, there is a reason for that short amount of time: radio and electromagnetic waves are fast. As for measuring, just try a ping and see the result: there you go, you have measured it.

Magic do the same way, you don't believe it because you never experience it. the knowledge is kept hidden from you, even if it is exposed, you still can't accept it, because you live in the world of science...crystal ball/orb is just one of the tool, we can use many things such as a bowl of water. It will be the same with using computer and internet, except that you don't need to pay the bill.

Please, don't assume. I've never experienced a black hole, but I believe in them. It's not a "I only believe what I see" thing, or science would never have left the stone age. We probably wouldn't even have created the first tools to start with.

So, in Thedas it will be the same, when technology boom, magic is gone, and people believe about magic is as we today believe about magic

No, because, in Thedas, magic is a real, observable thing, and technology already exists. Simply being able to forge steel is already technology. They have various contraptions, optical instruments (the spy-glass in Awakening, Maric's grandfather's glasses mentioned in the Stolen Throne), and substances that go "boum". Qunari are decently advanced too. Technology doesn't begin with gunpowder.

There's absolutely nothing preventing magic and advanced technology from co-existing, except, maybe, magic becoming obsolete at some point because something fade-controlled is always more dangerous and unreliable than something man / elf / dwarf / qunari controlled. A mix of both would be more likely, though. What Anders did at the Chantry is a good example of mixing technology and magic (the "potion" is technological - chemical - the detonation is made by magic).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Do you really want to be handling gunpowder in a world where people can throw fire with their hands?

I would think that would just result in a lot of people getting their own weapons blown up in their faces.

[Black Jimmy]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Giving everyone effective gunpowder will solve all of the major problems of Thedas.

(1) Magic will no longer be descriminated against, as everyone can have access to something just as (if not more) dangerous.

(2) The Darkspawn will become trivial to deal with - we already see an example of this in DA2's quest involving Nathaniel.

(3) The Qunari no longer possess a distinct technological advantage. This will deter them from further aggression and stabilize the power balance.

(4) The effective use of gunpowder will lead to economic and technological advancement as well as geographical exploration, which will eventually dispel religious superstitions like what happened during the Renaissance in our world's Europe.

The problem with your logic there is that you're not taking into account that this is the Dragon Age universe and that every outcome for these situations would likely be the worst one imaginable.

1) Anti Mage Terroist Cells start bombing Havans for Mages
2) The Darkspawn will get a hold of it themselves, thus allowing them to blast there way through to Orzammar and the other remaining cities, thus leaving Dwarves mostly extinct save those on the syrface.
3) The Qunari, I don't know yet. Preemptively invade I guess.
4) It would be highly weaponized and ultimately result in constant war.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Do you really want to be handling gunpowder in a world where people can throw fire with their hands?

I would think that would just result in a lot of people getting their own weapons blown up in their faces.

Sylvius the Mad makes a very interesting point. What happens to a group of people carry gunpowder based weapons when they are hit by fire bolts or balls thrown by a mage? They will explode injuring or killing the person carrying the weapon.

For your consideration early firearms were notoriously unstable to the point that they were as much a danger to the gunman as the target

Early guns also took time to reload. A skilled bowman back in the olden days were taught to shoot 12 arrows or more a minute. So just giving everyone gunpowder will not be the great equalizer.