599 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravensword]

There are some severely high levels of bat**** in this thread and all coming from one person.

[Boycott Bioware]

I believe i am on topic because the topic is about gunpowder solve every problem in Thedas in which i agree with, in other word technological progress solve things. I compare it with real world.

Who going off topic here talking about gun type and talking about don't want guns in DA...and put memes, ridicules and so on?

Modifié par Qistina, 11 mai 2013 - 05:15 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Silfren wrote...
Okay, look, you just don't know what you're talking about. I used to be a practicing Pagan, so I can see where you're coming from, actually, but that doesn't make your assertions any less wrong. The only thing they show is that you don't understand anything about science in general or evolution in particular.

Evolution: I don't know what you do and don't understand about evolution. I'm guessing very precious little, given your earlier admission that you don't believe in it. But the fact is, magic is not going to stop being expressed in people with the rise of technology. That you keep insisting it would just boggles the mind. In the real world, humans didn't lose their fur because they started wearing clothes, and in Thedas, mages haven't lost the ability to cast fire spells simply because there are non-magical means of creating fire.

Magic is NOT science. By its very definition magic violates the laws of physics. It is antithetical to science. It's already been brought up that the maxim you apparently seem to be alluding to doesn't mean what you think it does. The statement that modern science would look like magic to primitive peoples in no way means that science and magic are different words for the same thing.

I can't begin to figure where you're getting your ideas about crystal orbs used for communication. There's nothing historical about that nonsense. You've either been taking Lord of the Rings and other fantasy stories as literal fact, or you've listened to David Icke and his alien conspiracy silliness one time too many.

In fact, now that I think about it I'm fairly sure that's where a lot of your ideas are coming from: David Icke and his fellow conspiracists, based on your comments about extraterrestrials. I'm an avid follower of Icke's personal brand of crazy myself, but purely for the entertainment value--I have the good sense not to believe in any of it.

You live in a world where Evolution Theory is a core and prised in your school, i live in the world where Evolution Theory is ridiculed and challenged in my school.

You say you practice Pagan and you know everything, i say i am a descendants of court wizards, so what? You claim i don't know what i am talking about, i can say the same to you.

And no, i do hear about David Icke but i don't know who's David Icke is. You assume all that i say come from the conspiracy theorists? You so wrong...we in the east know things long before your conspiracy theorists say about it.

Magic and science is just terminology, you western people love your definition on things, love to define things and believe only your definition is true. The world is big, there are other world that things work beyond your definitions, beyond what you believe in.

You say there is no historical about crystal orb communication, may be at your place...at my place a shaman can communicate with bowl of water the same with us using internet chat room.

It is not about me or about you, i am no superior in knowledge as you are no superior than me, i am just sharing what i know from my world. You are free to take what i said and you are free to dismiss it...i never force anyone to believe me...but don't tell me that i don't know what i am talking about....

[n7stormrunner]

not the the real life magic debate isn't interesting but what just gunpowder against the powerful monsters the with a flick of the wrist do more then any short of a large bomb, as in the kind dropped form airplanes?

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Existence (the material world) is overrated. Ideal world is where all the eternal things and rules are created in. Plato ftw!

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

So anyway, I don't believe Bioware has any intention of turning Thedas into a steampunk fantasy land, but I must admit that would be miles more appealing to me than what we've got currently.

I just love me some steampunk.

I don't really understand steampunk myself. Don't suppose you could name some fiction titles representative of the genre?

IIRC, some of the Final Fantasy games were steampunk or at least had steampunk presence. Then there's American McGee's Alice Mad Hatter realm (also kinda clockpunk). Also, Dwemer ruins in Skyrim would count.

But those are just games. TVTropes has an article devoted to the subject where you can learn more about it. See here.

It's basically where steam power is what drives the world, I guess. At least, in a simplified form I think it could be boiled down to that.

[TEWR]

Some Geth wrote...

Lieutenant Kirby is not taking any more of your ****.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Loosely speaking a devout muslim or christian might also say everything in the world is god's gift and evidence of his existence, believe in a kind of divinity present in all things, etc. (I don't really know about that though, could be kind of blasphemy.)

Personally speaking, though I'm a Catholic/Christian I do hold more or less that view -- though I have a lot more to say about that, which I shan't do here -- but I don't necessarily associate that view with my religious upbringing.

So you certainly don't need to be among those religious groups to hold such a viewpoint, but I'd agree that people among such groups could hold those views.

I also do personally believe magic did (and still does) exist in our world in a more fantastical sense, but again... topic I'd have a lot to say that I shan't do here.

[Ravensword]

What ever happened to objectivity?

[n7stormrunner]

Ravensword wrote...

What ever happened to objectivity?

mostly it's a myth,

[Plague Doctor D.]

Some Geth wrote...

There is a Kirby Anime?!
I never knew...

Modifié par LordDemitel, 11 mai 2013 - 08:37 .

[Swagger7]

Ugh, I hate trying to muddle through multiquotes, so I'll just use regular quotes:

"Plate armor was not in abundance on European battlefields.  Also you
keep saying this and the most classic battle of knights vs. longbows
says you are wrong.  Ask the 10,000 dead French knights at Agincourt how
effective longbows were."

The Hundred Years War ended before the period in question, so it was A) before the the matchlock was widely introdued, and before the decline in total numbers of troops fielded.  Also, at Agincourt most of the archers' successes came from shooting at very close range after the knights were mired in the mud, where the archers could target gaps and weak points in the armor.  Many other kills were from the lighter armored Englishmen mobbing the stuck knights and stabbing them with daggers, etc.  The great melee continued for three hours, during which time most of the archers were out of arrows.  Thus, a poor example.

"No, armies were getting bigger.  By the end of the Hundred Years War the
French Monarchy was able to field a force of unprecendented size (or at
least since Rome)."

Again too early.  I was referring to downsizing that began around the Wars of the Roses or so.  This particular bit  is from some text I read a long time ago on the subject of professionalism in the military throughout history, so I'll admit I could be remembering it incorrectly.  It has only a tiny bearing on my overall point though, so I'm willing to toss it aside.

"It wasn't.  We keep telling you this.  If you don't believe us ask military historians like Jeremy Black of Geoffrey Roberts."

Argument from authority, which is exactly what perpetuated this myth of the superiority of archery in the first place.  I used hard data from testing to come to my conclusions.  True, I wish the data was better, but what there is clearly supports the inability of archers to inflict as much damage in battle as gunners.  Should you actually cite some arguments from these historians, I will address the arguments.  Otherwise, they're just names.

"Bows did work.  It just took a decade to train a decent archer.  It was much more cost-efficient to use firearms."

Cost efficiency is hardly the issue, since archers (at least in England) were mostly yeomen farmers who were taught to shoot by their fathers and called to arms in time of need.  That doesn't cost the nobles or the crown anything but the sponsorship of the occasional archery contest.  What killed the training of archers was that their commanders gave them guns instead, because bows were obsolete.

"Because the Japanese came to the same conclusion as the Europeans. 
Cheap, replaceable, relatively effective soldiers make the best army." 

And how are the weapons that make "the best army" somehow inferior to those that don't?  I should make it clear that I'm not arguing that guns were necessarily better in 1v1 fights or in all circumstances, just that they made far better weapons of war overall.  Note the Takeda Shingen quote's second part:  "Have your best men carry guns."  Not "give the guns to some peasants, because they don't require any skill and are only useful in large numbers."

EDIT:  I should also point out that during the era of the Wars of the Roses (~1455-1485)  the shield had largely disappeared from the battlefield.  (books.google.com/books)  Why?  Because armor had very little vulnerability to the bows and crossbows of the time.  Why would men have laid aside their shields if their armor was particularly vulnerable to ranged attack?  The only shield that remained in widespread use was the pavise, which crossbowmen hid behind to reload, and the buckler, which was quite small and therefore only of use in melee.  Large shields were cast aside because armor provided sufficient protection, and knights and men-at-arms were better served by a free hand with which to grapple or by having both hands free to use a poleaxe.

Modifié par Swagger7, 11 mai 2013 - 10:25 .

[Swagger7]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

So anyway, I don't believe Bioware has any intention of turning Thedas into a steampunk fantasy land, but I must admit that would be miles more appealing to me than what we've got currently.

I just love me some steampunk.

I don't really understand steampunk myself. Don't suppose you could name some fiction titles representative of the genre?

Best example IMHO:  The Court of the Air (and sequels) by Stephen Hunt.

[Swagger7]

Zelto wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Most of those comparisons (at least that I've found) are based on dubious sources like the national traditions of England, where they glorify the longbow (despite replacing it with guns as quickly as everyone else), and not on any kind of test data.  My little study is based on actual performance figures of replica equipment, such as it is and what there is of it. 

Rate of fire is useless when your shots don't penetrate an enemy's armor.  By the time of the matchlock musket armor manufacturing had progressed to the point that most of the men in an army had at least a cuirass and helmet.  Armies in this period were smaller and more professional than previous centuries.  Also, the problem with a bow's high rate of fire is that arrows are fairly bulky, and have to be carried in such a way that their flights aren't damaged.  This limits the number of arrows an archer can carry, which in turn limits his rate of fire.  (unless he really wants to empty his quiver in a few minutes and stand there helpless)

The matchlock gun so thoroughly replaced bows and crossbows on the battlefield that I find it hard to believe it wasn't generally superior.  If bows or crossbows held some redeeming quality you'd think they would have been retained in sizable numbers for a long period.  Our forebears were just as smart as we are today.  If something worked they used it.  If it didn't, then it was discarded and replaced by something which did work.

Heck, even the Japanese (who were famed for their archery) rapidly adopted the matchlock musket in huge numbers.  The Portugese gave the Japanese matchlock technology in 1543, right in the middle of the Warring States Period.  Within ten years they had manufactured 300,000 of them.  (books.google.com/books)  Even samurai widely adopted the gun for use in battle, setting aside their bows.  Even the warlord Takeda Shingen said ""Hereafter, guns will be the most important arms.  Therefore decrease the number of spears and have your most capable men carry guns."" in 1567.   (books.google.com/books  page17)  From that point through the end of the Warring States Period guns were a main feature of every major battle.

The main reason was that longbowmen trained from their teens untill adulthood with the bow to be profficient. To shoot a gun took a few weeks practice to be usefull. Therefore you could either train your entire nation with the bow, reducing farming and other proffesions, on the off chance a war would occur or have your army trained rappidly with guns when needed. A skilled archer could probably fire a bow faster than a WW2 bolt action rifle albeit for a short period of time before they became exausted.

Your argument also relies on the use of high quality steel armour by the majority of the enemy army. Darkspawn wear poor quality stolen armour, therefore arrows will be more effective due to rate of fire.

Anyway DA isn't about real life. Otherwise rogues would be useless using daggers that would never hurt a plate or mail wearing knight. Guns don't add anything to game play, they would just replace archers, add complications as said fireballs would explode the gunpowder, and move the game from the medivel feel it has to a more modern feeling.

Most bowmen (at least in England), were farmers who trained in their spare time, thus it had little drain on the economy. 

This has nothing to do with DA.  I was just attempting to refute what I view as a commonly held misconception regarding early firearms IRL.  The DA writers can certainly make guns behave anyway they want in Thedas.

[Boycott Bioware]

I give a scenario, alien who live millions of light years come to visit earth, this is what alien hunters and scientologists say...they theorized that the alien have technology that can going warp speed, creating worm hole, and such things...now i ask you, are all those scientific theories about how alien come here to visit earth are actually science?

They are talking about the engine that does not exist, the power supply that does not exist, physic law that does not exist and mechanic that does not exist...but still worm hole and warp speed acceptable in science

How on earth those aliens still alive after traveling billions of light years to earth?

Let say if you take an airplane at point A at 12.00 noon 11 May 2013, you arrived in other country at the other side of earth, point B exactly at 12.00 noon 11 May 2013, so where is your one day gone?

Other case at point A 12.00 noon 11 May 2013, arrived at point B 10.00 am 10 May 2013...you have been travel back in time...point A 12.00 noon 11 May to point B 8.00 am 12 may 2013...you have been travel to the future

When you take a rocket and going to outer space, are you effected by earth rotation? Are you effected by your clock?

What is "time" exactly? It is not your clock, it is not the earth rotation.... time is changes...things changes, from baby to old man, from seed to dead tree, before and after....it is nothing to do with your clock, earth rotation and your calculations...things grow and die, formed and destroyed...what was there now not anymore, what was not there now it's there....

So how the alien come here from billion light years and still alive? It is simple...MAGIC...they defy your law of physic, your clock, your mechanic, your calculation, your science, your belief...it is the same like the example i give above, from point A to point B, leave and arrived at the same time...you can blow your head with scientific theories and calculation but it is actually simply "leave and arrived at the same time"...it's Magic....they leave and arrived before things changes....

so what are the aliens actually?

The universe is in your head..("the galaxy is on the Orion's belt"-MiB)...

Now when i hit "submit", this message come to your computer at this moment...

[Herr Uhl]

We're using scientology as a legitimate source now?

[n7stormrunner]

Qistina wrote...

I give a scenario, alien who live millions of light years come to visit earth, this is what alien hunters and scientologists say...they theorized that the alien have technology that can going warp speed, creating worm hole, and such things...now i ask you, are all those scientific theories about how alien come here to visit earth are actually science?

They are talking about the engine that does not exist, the power supply that does not exist, physic law that does not exist and mechanic that does not exist...but still worm hole and warp speed acceptable in science

How on earth those aliens still alive after traveling billions of light years to earth?

Let say if you take an airplane at point A at 12.00 noon 11 May 2013, you arrived in other country at the other side of earth, point B exactly at 12.00 noon 11 May 2013, so where is your one day gone?

Other case at point A 12.00 noon 11 May 2013, arrived at point B 10.00 am 10 May 2013...you have been travel back in time...point A 12.00 noon 11 May to point B 8.00 am 12 may 2013...you have been travel to the future

When you take a rocket and going to outer space, are you effected by earth rotation? Are you effected by your clock?

What is "time" exactly? It is not your clock, it is not the earth rotation.... time is changes...things changes, from baby to old man, from seed to dead tree, before and after....it is nothing to do with your clock, earth rotation and your calculations...things grow and die, formed and destroyed...what was there now not anymore, what was not there now it's there....

So how the alien come here from billion light years and still alive? It is simple...MAGIC...they defy your law of physic, your clock, your mechanic, your calculation, your science, your belief...it is the same like the example i give above, from point A to point B, leave and arrived at the same time...you can blow your head with scientific theories and calculation but it is actually simply "leave and arrived at the same time"...it's Magic....they leave and arrived before things changes....

so what are the aliens actually?

The universe is in your head..("the galaxy is on the Orion's belt"-MiB)...

Now when i hit "submit", this message come to your computer at this moment...

I'm fairly sure there's a point in here but I can't see it though all the insane troll logic

[FINE HERE]

*blink, blink* Um... what?

On topic, I'd prefer DA stayed in the more medieval fantasy style than steampunk. Keep gunpowder super rare. It can exist, I guess, but I rather the player or the common thug/enemy didn't get their hands on it.