318 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

Do you want to loose the dialogue wheel and return to the point based persuasion check?

Keep the dialogue wheel and something similar to DA2 personality/class dependant persuasions?

A hybrid of sorts were you put points into the skill and have the option appear in the dialogue wheel similar to ME1's paragon/renegade skills? (This is likely my personally prefered option btw)

Loose the element all together?

Something I haven't mentioned/thought of yet?

Your thoughts please.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I usually prefer it when games get you to legitimately think about how to persuade this person and choose the right options rather than have a mechanic for it, IMO.

Modifié par SergeantSnookie, 10 mai 2013 - 01:29 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I usually prefer it when games get you to legitimately think about how to persuade this person and choose the right options rather than have a mechanic for it, IMO.

Deus Ex:HR style?

[mickey111]

Kill it with fire. Or just hide it and make us figure out how to influence people the old fashioned way. You know, the way that involves each players comprehension of social interaction. The old Fallouts did something like that, you may have heard of them.

[AresKeith]

Greylycantrope wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I usually prefer it when games get you to legitimately think about how to persuade this person and choose the right options rather than have a mechanic for it, IMO.

Deus Ex:HR style?

I would like that style plus the sarcastic dialog from DA2

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Greylycantrope wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I usually prefer it when games get you to legitimately think about how to persuade this person and choose the right options rather than have a mechanic for it, IMO.

Deus Ex:HR style?

Haven't played HR for a while, but from what I remember, yeah, I guess.

[Enigmatick]

^ I remember HR having an upgrade that pretty much told you what option to pick.

[GreyLycanTrope]

mickey111 wrote...

Kill it with fire. Or just hide it and make us figure out how to influence people the old fashioned way. You know, the way that involves each players comprehension of social interaction. The old Fallouts did something like that, you may have heard of them.

I've heard of them but the oldest Fallout I've played was 3 and that had a point system, so feel free to elaborate

[GreyLycanTrope]

Enigmatick wrote...

^ I remember HR having an upgrade that pretty much told you what option to pick.

Largely though you could misread the meter sometimes, you also had a psych profile to help and a pheromone uprgade if you were feeling lazy.

Pheromone magic for mages?

[mickey111]

The old one had a point system too, but it also had good writing.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Dialogue Wheel is going to stay, according to Gaider.

That being said, I would like the Persuasion system to make some form of comeback. Stat based would be even better.

[Dave of Canada]

Persuasion checks with a simple persuasion/personality "skill" are bad because they always lead to the optimal outcome and they're fire-and-forget, see one? take it! 

I'd rather have dialogue challenges similar to DX:HR and KOTOR's light-side ending with Bastila. Unfortunately, it won't stop people from simply looking it up on the internet for optimal outcomes.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 mai 2013 - 01:44 .

[AresKeith]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

^ I remember HR having an upgrade that pretty much told you what option to pick.

Largely though you could misread the meter sometimes, you also had a psych profile to help and a pheromone uprgade if you were feeling lazy.

Pheromone magic for mages?

Threaten to cut their hands off for non mages  lol

[Fast Jimmy]

mickey111 wrote...

Kill it with fire. Or just hide it and make us figure out how to influence people the old fashioned way. You know, the way that involves each players comprehension of social interaction. The old Fallouts did something like that, you may have heard of them.

You mean where you used a Speech or other skill marked out in the dialogue list, letting you know it was an Auto-Win button? Not to mention the Perk that color-coded the best choices to choose. 

I'm not sure those games did what you are claiming they did. 

[KiwiQuiche]

Different checks- Like being a warrior you could beat someone for info (Or warrior-Templar is better at getting info from other templars or mages would refuse to co-op with a Templar pc), or being a Blood Mage you can wring it out of their minds. I wouldn't mind limitations to class in terms of persuasions; it would really encourage re-plays and trying different classes and talent trees.

[Enigmatick]

mickey111 wrote...

The old one had a point system too, but it also had good writing.

So is Invisible War the DA2 to the Deus EX series?

Modifié par Enigmatick, 10 mai 2013 - 01:47 .

[Epic777]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

^ I remember HR having an upgrade that pretty much told you what option to pick.

Largely though you could misread the meter sometimes, you also had a psych profile to help and a pheromone uprgade if you were feeling lazy.

Pheromone magic for mages?

If you did use the pheromone option <aka I win button>  you lost the silver tongue bonus - 1000 xp

[Enigmatick]

Epic777 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

^ I remember HR having an upgrade that pretty much told you what option to pick.

Largely though you could misread the meter sometimes, you also had a psych profile to help and a pheromone uprgade if you were feeling lazy.

Pheromone magic for mages?

If you did use the pheromone option <aka I win button>  you lost the silver tongue bonus - 1000 xp

That doesn't really set the player back at all.

[Fast Jimmy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Persuasion checks with a simple persuasion/personality "skill" are bad because they always lead to the optimal outcome and they're fire-and-forget, see one? take it! 

I'd rather have dialogue challenges similar to DX:HR and KOTOR's light-side ending with Bastila. Unfortunately, it won't stop people from simply looking it up on the internet for optimal outcomes.

A skill system that actually required you to sacrifice your combat skills in a serious way to have a speech skill isn't that bad. 

The DE:HR method of having one skill (out of dozens they give you througout the game) to unlock the way to find the easiest way to talk your way past anything wasn't the best solution, to me. I can get the best speech skills right from the start in DE:HR and still have plenty of points to apply to stealth choices AND combat skills and not be any worse for wear. 

You may say "don't get the perk and you can enjoy the challenge," but that's not really the point. Game desin avoiding be (easily) side stepped by one skill point assignment out of dozens that you give the player. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Different checks- Like being a warrior you could beat someone for info (Or warrior-Templar is better at getting info from other templars or mages would refuse to co-op with a Templar pc), or being a Blood Mage you can wring it out of their minds. I wouldn't mind limitations to class in terms of persuasions; it would really encourage re-plays and trying different classes and talent trees.

I like this concept but the class option just being there by default seems a little too easy.

[In Exile]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Persuasion checks with a simple persuasion/personality "skill" are bad because they always lead to the optimal outcome and they're fire-and-forget, see one? take it!  

Totally agree. And the argument that it allows you to RP a persuasive character is not convincing. If you want a "strong" character you don't get to auto-win combat encounters.

I'd rather have dialogue challenges similar to DX:HR and KOTOR's light-side ending with Bastila. Unfortunately, it won't stop people from simply looking it up on the internet for optimal outcomes.

I'm not sure there's really a problem with that. So long as it's fun without a guide, who cares what other people collaborate to do?

Fast Jimmy wrote...
A skill system that actually required you to sacrifice your combat skills in a serious way to have a speech skill isn't that bad.

It won't make a difference in a party-based game. Even if you completely nerf the PC, you still have 3 NPCs that could be enough to massacre the game content on a regular (and greater) difficulty. Even on nightmare, I could probably blast through DA:O/DA2 with a 3 person party and one meatsack. 

You also get arbitrary gameplay. Why are two parts of the game suddenly mutually exclusively? What justifies persuasion as counterbalanced with combat? 

[Dave of Canada]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

A skill system that actually required you to sacrifice your combat skills in a serious way to have a speech skill isn't that bad.

Depends on the game, I'd say.

Games like Deus Ex offers speech as an alternative, you could speak to the guard to gain access or sneak in undetected and go about just as easily. It's usually never influencing major plot decisions or success rates of missions. The only time the game truly faults your decisions are if you get caught or go in guns blazing.

Meanwhile, games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect tend to have no "real" alternatives and have dialogue in more critical moments. You're either fighting the plot/mission critical guy or convincing him to back down without a fight, in addition the diplomatic option gain you more loot, (sometimes) experience and gold. I was upset when I couldn't side with Petrice unless I was aggressive.

Putting points in persuasion in Origins for example benefits you far more than putting points in poison making or what say you, there's really no point in those secondary skills aside from one or two side-quests. Hell, your companions can do those for you.

Hell, games like Fallout which tend to be more punishing combat-wise if going with speech skills tend to allow you to bypass most "hard" encounters with it as well.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 mai 2013 - 02:07 .

[Sharkonian]

The best option would be a quick time event.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Sharkonian wrote...

The best option would be a quick time event.

[Fast Jimmy]

You also get arbitrary gameplay. Why are two parts of the game suddenly mutually exclusively? What justifies persuasion as counterbalanced with combat?

This is the real rub. If you can't talk you way past a situation, then it is not very worthwhile. If your speech skill results in combat under the same circumstances as someone with zero speech skill, then what's the point?

The two don't have to be mutual exclusive, but if you can talk your way past anyone and then also easily blast past anyone who puts up a fight, then where's the challenge? Where's the struggle?

Speech is a hard skill to do where it has worth in enough situations, but it also doesn't become overpowered. It also has to be balanced out where you shouldn't be able to have both skills at equal levels in tandem, where killing someone or talking past them is a flip of a coin, instead of a decision of gameplay decision.