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Skryim + DragonAge = The sweet sound of amore


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#176
Sutekh

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Xilizhra wrote...

Well, it's an action RPG kind of thing. Less an RPG than DA, at the very least. Not that I care in the slightest about the distinction, I'm just saying.

Yep. We agree on both account. It's just that being an action-RPG doesn't make it an FPS, a Sim-like game, a sport sim or a cooking recipe. It's still in a subgenre of The Noble and Most Ancient House of RPGs.

On that, we agree. Races are not really acknowledged in-game, or very rarely (at least, in ways that count more than "hey there, Dark Elf").

Which is odd, because racism seems to be a major issue in the TES universe... except for the PC. This is more noticeably irritating than in DA, because if you're an elf in Origins, at least you tell people you're a Grey Warden fairly regularly.

IMHO, it's a resource problem. With so many races, it would probably take a great deal of them to actually acknowledge that in a significant way.

Actually, come to think of it, anything really personal gets the same treatment. It remains secondary. It's a pity, really, because it would add so much, but I'm sure that those who love the game for the blank slate / headcanon thingie would find it railroading or something along the line.

Modifié par Sutekh, 12 mai 2013 - 02:29 .


#177
Boycott Bioware

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Sutekh wrote...
I'm not drooling over Skyrim and actually prefer DA, but seriously? You want to go there?


yes

Sutekh wrote...
It's a mix of both, since the minigame become easier as your skill rises. A 100 lockpicking means practically 100% odds of opening the lock.


It not become easier for some people and still depend on the people who play the mini game. For me, i don't invest a point in lockpicking because i pass every chests in the game, from novive level to mater level, the max of lockpicks i use in an attempt on master level is 30 (and i have 99+ lockpicks in my inventory) that is because at that time i am moody, mostly 20 on master level lock

let say, you invest points in lockpicking perks on each level ups, is it usable for you in the game? Your enemy become stronger and stronger and you only have lockpicking perks. Many Skyrim player cry out loud to remove Lockpicking perk tree because for them it is a useless...and i agree

Sutekh wrote...
Is there a golden rule stating that every RPGs must have a detect trap skill? Because I can think of many who don't, including PnP. If what you mean is that TES doesn't rely on D&D tropes to call itself an RPG, then OK. But D&D isn't the absolute criterium.


I cannot detect taps, i am no soldier, i am not US marine, i am not Rambo...i will likely to fall into booby traps if i travel in the forest, because i cannot detect traps. So in the game, it is similar, the character i play is not me, so if my character is a character that can detect trap, she should, because she is not me, she is the character i play and i role-play her, if she cannot detect traps because she don't have the perk or certain attribute i can accept it because she not yet reach the level. So when i want to role-play a character that should be can detect trap, why i must detect them my self?

Sutekh wrote...
Again, attributes aren't what makes an RPG. Nor are classes, skills, talents, disciplines, rage points or whatever. Attributes define a type of RPG system. And again, the player's skills are less and less important as your skills increase.


Attributes and classes that define your character, what you're playing. Without them it is not RPG, because you are not role playing, you just play and everything depend on your own reflex, you have good reflex you survive, bad reflex, you suck

You miss the point of the race starting bonus entirely. It's there to give you a little advantage in a given domain, not to replace a skill. If a Nord works their bow skill long and hard enough, why wouldn't they be better than a lazy Bosmer after a while?

You've got the exact same thing in DAO. Dalish rogues start with 1 point in survival and poison making. If you don't put points there ever, your Dalish will end up much less proficient than a Dwarven Warrior who'd have invested in them.


Yeah, in DA:O we can have a Dwarf master archer, but that not fit a Dwarf character, but you are free to make such character as you wish. You never being addressed in the game as a race who is a master archer to begin with. Dalish may have some remark about dalish being a good archer (by Loghain and master Ilen) but but that is not the general idea about Dalish being stressed upon, as you can see Dalish have sword and board warriors as well (and Mages, and Arcane Warriors later)

What i mean is, the starter skill stats is nothing, because almost every race can do the same in the end. You are a Bosmer who is master archer, then you get one shot killed by a Red Guard. In character creation, it tells you that Bosmers are master archers, but you suck at archery...what? So what are you role playing? It is YOU

Modifié par Qistina, 12 mai 2013 - 02:34 .


#178
EpicBoot2daFace

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VanguardCharge wrote...

i think dragon age should take tips from fable 3 it has a very dynamic non pc interactions and has rich rpg elements like the excelent battle system.

Image IPB

I hope to God you're trolling.

#179
Xilizhra

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IMHO, it's a resource problem. With so many races, it would probably take a great deal of them to actually acknowledge that in a significant way.

Actually, come to think of it, anything really personal gets the same treatment. It remains secondary. It's a pity, really, because it would add so much, but I'm sure that those who love the game for the blank slate / headcanon thingie would find it railroading or something along the line.

Wouldn't it be better to just bloat the world less? And how is it railroading to acknowledge race in a game where it's a major issue?

#180
Nefla

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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

VanguardCharge wrote...

i think dragon age should take tips from fable 3 it has a very dynamic non pc interactions and has rich rpg elements like the excelent battle system.



I hope to God you're trolling.



When playing DA2 I actually thought several times "I'm fighting right in front of these cardboard cutout civilians, Templars, etc...and none of them react at all! I wish it was like Fable where the civilians run away or hide and the guards join the fight.

#181
Sutekh

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Xilizhra wrote...

Wouldn't it be better to just bloat the world less?

Maybe. But it would then become a different game, just like DA would be changed by true open-worldness to the point of not being DA anymore.

To clarify: I would love a smaller, more focused Tamriel. One where companions are more than a combat help (hindrance, actually, but not the current point), where romance and friendship exist, and where there is a personal story somewhere. But I know that would be at the price of freedom, exploration and the so-called "blank slate character" which is what many Skyrim fans love about the game and is part of the game's identity. Some of those things are mutually exclusive. Some due to their nature, others to technical restrictions. 

And how is it railroading to acknowledge race in a game where it's a major issue?

I don't think it is, but I'm pretty sure some would find it so, because it would force them into their race's most likely behaviour(s), since we can't have an infinite numbers of reactions to race acknowledgment ("But I wanted to play a humble Altmer, why don't I have a groveling-to-the-Argonian dialog option?") and no possible reaction isn't better ("But I want to punch that filthy Nord! Why can't I punch that filthy Nord?").

I've seen arguments such as "Intro narration is railroading" or "DA origins are railroading". Some people really want a neutral setting; something they can freely fill with their headcanon (to a point), where they can roleplay exactly like they want without the game ever contradicting them. That's what Skyrim mostly offers.

#182
In Exile

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M25105 wrote...
Posts there isn't a difference, then posts the dictionary definition where you can actually read the difference....


Well, no. No one uses emulate to mean " effort or abitition to surpass another". 

But let's say you're right - let's say that this is exactly what the word means. There's still no difference between that and COD, if Bioware sets out to 'emulate' COD in every single one of its games.

Looking at a financially successful game and emulating aspects of it that works well with your own game, is a the sign of a good company that can see success instead of standing there in it's corner spending 50 million dollars to appease a small niche hardcore crowd game who if they had their way would still play text based DOS games.


Which is exactly why Bioware should be out there "emulating" COD and Skyrim - i.e., Bioware needs to abandon party-based gaming ASAP and switch to an FPS, because both of them use FPS style gameplay.

You want Bioware to spend a ton of money to make the new DA:I game awesome, well then you gotta suck it up and realise that there just isn't enough of a profit to spend so much money and then fall behind the so called "bad games" (which aren't bad at all).


I don't want Bioware to "spend a ton of money". Whoever you're arguing with isn't me. 

You make it sound like Dragon Age is a game where the NPC's are all alive and never repeat themselves.


That would require that I actually compare Skyrim and DA, instead of saying that Skyrim doesn't do it well. See, as hard as it might be for you to handle this piece of information, both games can suck at something. Bioware does scripted interactions very well, and in that sense they're "lifelike" but only to the extent that they're scripted to imitate life. Skyrim is dynamic, but the AI is so far removed from being able to simulate even basic human behaviour that the entire game is populated by hive-mind worker ants. 

Using real life cities and an empty desert (Skyrim is far from empty) doesn't fly. Not to mention the people in Skyrim actually go back to bed late night, wake up and go back to work. That makes it far more "realistic" than the static NPC's in Dragon Age that just stands there all day and night.


Ants sleep and work. This is not some marvel of AI or intelligent life that Skyrim is portraying. 

#183
In Exile

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CrustyBot wrote...

On the living world tangent


See, this is where we disagree - a living world requires that people in it are actually alive. And the biggest thing we do is pursue goal-directed activity on a large scale. This means on a faction scale. What AI really needs to do to be dynamic is to try to imitate that kind of reaction.

An example would be Romance of the Three Kingdoms IX, although quite simplistic. 

Stuff like the festival for the Bards "Guild" in Solitude is the stuff you want to see and events like that can be really great for giving the player the impression of a living world. But having like 7 people in the capital city coming out for a supposedly massive celebration shatters the illusion.


It's not just that - it's the very limited number of ways that people can actually interact with you, or what topics you can engage with them on. This is what makes the world seem dead to me, actually. Because on the one hand the game is asking me not to suspend my disbelief that it's a pale imitation of reality, but on the other hand if fails comically to imitate reality. 

#184
Ridwan

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You can't have it both ways, if you lot keep thinking that emulating aspects of what makes a game successful is the same is making it a run of the mill FPS then I'm glad that you're not the one deciding the business.

Big budget games and niche crowds are an oxymoron. "Omg, Dragon Age with huge landscapes and freedom to move around. That's bad and casual, and casuals are the devil!" How dare a company think that by earning a bigger profit they can show that the RPG genre is worth a 50 million dollar budget? They should just be content with selling 3 million copies at most and make sure they spend at least 70 million dollars (many of it on A-list voice actors).

I don't like the route Bioware has taken either with the idiot awesome button and the copy pasted maps, but that had nothing to do with Skyrim (or Dragon Age: Origins) but just with developers who thought that by making the game more anime like would bring in the "casuals". Contrary to popular belief, "casuals" aren't stupid. There's a reason why only CoD is so successful in FPS multiplayer (Battlefield is the only competition) while other games fail. CoD does what it does well and it's familiar. When you already drink Coke, you don't want to drink New Coke, despite the fact that blind tests shows that New Coke tastes better. You want what you're familiar with.

Now if Bioware tried to copy Skyrim, they would fail spectaculary, if they however do another repeat of DA 2, they will fail even more so. Taking what works from Skyrim however and what worked in DA: Origins and discard what doesn't work, then they won't be in direct competition with TES series, but have their own unique franchise that stands out by offering the Bioware experience combined with beautiful world ala Skyrim. That takes time, and money, but it would be a huge success rather than doing Baldur's Gate 3 (Dragon Age: Origins, was big step in the right correction, since they kept the soul of Baldu'rs Gate, but avoided the overly long complicated stuff that people just don't have time or interest in doing).

Either lower your expectations in terms of sound and graphic, or expect a change to bring in more people to make the game profitable and justify it's budget.

#185
GodChildInTheMachine

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If you want a game that approximates the outcome of a Skyrim+Dragon Age mating, wait until The Witcher 3 comes out. Even better, it's made by a developer whose primary focus is still making a game that has consistent quality and depth across all of its constituent parts. This, as opposed to Bethesda and BioWare who are completely comfortable with an overblown and superficial focus on their signature design elements to the detriment of all else, and even that only as a secondary motivation to making cash.

#186
Bad King

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garrusfan1 wrote...

I love the elder scrolls games but they are the complete opposite in rpgs that bioware is. biowares specalty is characters I have never seen a company come close to bioware in it and the storys are better then TES. the elder scrolls have horrible characters for the most part and the storys are okay at best it is just the shear amount of stuff that makes them special. also when that was stated it meant they were gonna take some ideas one of the dev team said later it is not gonna be a skyrim clone or something and it wasn't meant like that


True for the most part, though Ulfric Stormcloak had more depth than the majority of ME3's characters. TIM and Kai Leng for example were bland and one-dimensional whereas Ulfric was complex and morally grey.

My take (not a particularly original opinion, but here it is): I hope that they do make DA3 more open world, though not to the extent that Skyrim is. DA:O was about the main questline and the characters that accompanied you on it. Skyrim is more about the side content and the scale of the world and lore.

I'd like them to flesh out sidequests a bit because Chanter's Board quests were generally generic and dull (equivalent to the 'radiant' quests in Skyrim). BioWare should also be inspired by Skyrim's landscapes to make a prettier world: DA:O's landscapes weren't particularly spectacular or colourful, and DA:2 just looked absolutely horrible.

Modifié par Bad King, 12 mai 2013 - 10:29 .


#187
duckley

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Skyrim's world is a big mass of nothingness littered by crypts and caves filled with draugr.


I have to agree
it may have been  a fun game but for me it lacked soul. it  was also so filled with bugs on the PS3 for me it became unplayable. please bioware - dont do it!

#188
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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In Exile wrote...

See, this is where we disagree - a living world requires that people in it are actually alive. And the biggest thing we do is pursue goal-directed activity on a large scale. This means on a faction scale. What AI really needs to do to be dynamic is to try to imitate that kind of reaction.


Sounds like STALKER. Especially Clear Sky with the faction wars.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 12 mai 2013 - 10:46 .


#189
In Exile

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M25105 wrote...

You can't have it both ways, if you lot keep thinking that emulating aspects of what makes a game successful is the same is making it a run of the mill FPS then I'm glad that you're not the one deciding the business.


You're the one trying to have it both ways - because there's nothing different between aiming to outdo COD and capture its audience, versus trying to outdo Skyrim and capture that audience, other than the fact tha COD has a bigger audience. 

Big budget games and niche crowds are an oxymoron. "Omg, Dragon Age with huge landscapes and freedom to move around. That's bad and casual, and casuals are the devil!" How dare a company think that by earning a bigger profit they can show that the RPG genre is worth a 50 million dollar budget? They should just be content with selling 3 million copies at most and make sure they spend at least 70 million dollars (many of it on A-list voice actors).


Who said this? Why do you keep harping on this point?

Now if Bioware tried to copy Skyrim, they would fail spectaculary, if they however do another repeat of DA 2, they will fail even more so. Taking what works from Skyrim however and what worked in DA: Origins and discard what doesn't work, then they won't be in direct competition with TES series,


What does this even mean? What "worked" in Skyrim? The fact that it was an FPS with no party seems to have worked really well, given how succesful FO3 and NV were with the same gameplay. Should Bioware abandon that? 

Either lower your expectations in terms of sound and graphic, or expect a change to bring in more people to make the game profitable and justify it's budget.


Who's saying otherwise? 

#190
In Exile

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CrustyBot wrote...
Sounds like STALKER. 


What did STALKER do?

#191
Savber100

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Skyrim is like an ocean with the depth of a puddle.

#192
Bad King

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Savber100 wrote...

Skyrim is like an ocean with the depth of a puddle.


Dragon Age 2 is like a puddle with the depth of a puddle.

Modifié par Bad King, 13 mai 2013 - 12:02 .


#193
TMZuk

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Bad King wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

Skyrim is like an ocean with the depth of a puddle.


Dragon Age 2 is like a puddle with the depth of a puddle.


:D:D:D Both statements are so very true!