179 réponses à ce sujet

[masleslie]

TJLenz wrote...

The Wraith is better anyway.

This

[Deerber]

Original Stikman wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

without debuffs/tc, the claymore cannot OHK a ravager.

also, a claymore cannot OHK a moving phantom without the proper debuffs/TC weapon damage boosts.

Disregarding the rest of the post because I already ansered in the other post, I think.

But I wanted to say that this is wrong.

On the right class and with the right consumables, a claymore can OHK both a ravager and a moving phantom (not on host, though) without using TC nor debuffs of any kind.

not true. Cowwy himself tested it on a krogan sentinel, fully specced for weapon damage. i have the PM somewhere.

Unless you are using MM or AR, then its not possible

And why, exactly, does the fact that it cannot be done by a krogan sentinel mean that no other class can do that? 

[Deerber]

MasterReefa wrote...

Deerber wrote...

MasterReefa wrote...

Deerber wrote...

MasterReefa wrote...


No but it can 2 shot them faster than the Claymore can reload cancel, and still have shots in the clip.
BSN has a weird 1 shot fetish...

True, but that means that you need to be in line of fire for the time of two shots.

And that changes everything.

Deerber pls

Actually, I'm totally serious.

I'm not arguing that the Claymore is the best shotgun around, I'm not one of those who think that (although I do think it's the one which feels best).

But it's definitely no worse than the Crusader. They're different guns, and you can't argue that one is better than the other because it can kill something in 2 shots faster than the other can RC and still have clips to fire. You're not accounting for the fact that 2 shots to kill is totally different than one. Totally.

It's difficult to 1 shot the things you listed if most of the pellets don't hit the head, you would then have to endure a long reload while the crusader can just keep firing. The crusader is much more flexible.

Again, I'm not arguing that the Claymore is better. I'm just saying that you can't say that the crusader is, either. It's simply different.

That said, I don't have any problem OHKing those enemies apart from phantoms. Phantoms require you to be very close and I usually prefer not to be too close if I'm not hosting, though.

[Original Twigman]

Deerber wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

without debuffs/tc, the claymore cannot OHK a ravager.

also, a claymore cannot OHK a moving phantom without the proper debuffs/TC weapon damage boosts.

Disregarding the rest of the post because I already ansered in the other post, I think.

But I wanted to say that this is wrong.

On the right class and with the right consumables, a claymore can OHK both a ravager and a moving phantom (not on host, though) without using TC nor debuffs of any kind.

not true. Cowwy himself tested it on a krogan sentinel, fully specced for weapon damage. i have the PM somewhere.

Unless you are using MM or AR, then its not possible

And why, exactly, does the fact that it cannot be done by a krogan sentinel mean that no other class can do that? 

because most classes have the exact same weapon damage capabilities that the krogan sentinel does.

he has no debuff or weapon damage bossting powers. if you don't have either one of those, you can't do it.

qme? nah, can't do it without tac scan
vorchas? no way
batarian sentinel/soldier? nope
asari justicar w/out prime/warp? nah
krogan soldier/krogan warlord? nope
demolisher? hell no
etc. etc.

[Original Twigman]

MasterReefa wrote...

Deerber wrote...

MasterReefa wrote...

Deerber wrote...

MasterReefa wrote...


No but it can 2 shot them faster than the Claymore can reload cancel, and still have shots in the clip.
BSN has a weird 1 shot fetish...

True, but that means that you need to be in line of fire for the time of two shots.

And that changes everything.

Deerber pls

Actually, I'm totally serious.

I'm not arguing that the Claymore is the best shotgun around, I'm not one of those who think that (although I do think it's the one which feels best).

But it's definitely no worse than the Crusader. They're different guns, and you can't argue that one is better than the other because it can kill something in 2 shots faster than the other can RC and still have clips to fire. You're not accounting for the fact that 2 shots to kill is totally different than one. Totally.

It's difficult to 1 shot the things you listed if most of the pellets don't hit the head, you would then have to endure a long reload while the crusader can just keep firing. The crusader is much more flexible.

i have witnessed this myself (PC video), a point blank claymore shot to the head that only shield gated a centurian on a GI

sometimes the claymore is buggy, imo

[BridgeBurner]

Original Stikman wrote...

also, a claymore cannot OHK a moving phantom without the proper debuffs/TC weapon damage boosts.

Wrong.

It's called headshots you scrub. (saying is copyright of Feneckus)

Anytime you have multiple targets, its better to take them out in two hits, with spare ammo, than one hit and require a reload cancel. With the crusader v. claymore in particular, this become even more evident when A) the distance between targets is greater, and the chance of mukking up the RC.

there is also the point: if at anytime you are able to OHK a ravager with the claymore, you have severe overkill on any mook in the game and the redundancy lowers its value when its speed is compared.

I think the only reason to champion the claymore as the best shotgun is for style, which is subjective, and style alone

You lose in terms of DPS. So talking about overkill when your guns does less DPS versus bosses is just... unwise.

Secondly, your crusader requires TC to be able to OHK with a body shot on an unshielded target... so 2 shots to kill. I doubt due to the base damage, that it's even possible to 1 shot a shielded mook with a phasic ammo crusader headshot.

In terms of raw DPS and TTK, the claymore beats the crusader; versus bosses, versus mooks. Same deal with the wraith. It's TTK and DPS are both inferior.

The claymore is still the most efficient mook killing shotgun in the game; maybe trumped slightly by the wraith on a GI, but only if you can score 80+ % ratio with headshots; which to be quite honest isn't something that console players will manage with the auto aim snapping to wherever it pleases.

The reegar doesn't exist. And if it did, only pansies would use it.

Modifié par Annomander, 10 mai 2013 - 07:50 .

[Deerber]

Original Stikman wrote...

he has no debuff or weapon damage bossting powers. if you don't have either one of those, you can't do it.

Original Stikman wrote...

asari justicar w/out prime/warp? nah

...

I'll let you figure this out by yourself.

If you can't, tomorrow I'll give you a list of characters that can OHK a phantom and a ravager without TC or any debuff.

Now I've gotta go, sorry! 

[Deerber]

Annomander wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

also, a claymore cannot OHK a moving phantom without the proper debuffs/TC weapon damage boosts.

Wrong.

It's called headshots you scrub. (saying is copyright of Feneckus)

Haha I knew that talking about the claymore would have lured you here man! 

Original Stikman wrote...

i have witnessed this myself (PC video), a point blank claymore shot to the head that only shield gated a centurian on a GI

sometimes the claymore is buggy, imo

It's not the claymore, it's the enemies' hitboxes that are buggy sometimes. It happens with all guns. It's simply most noticeable with single shot, powerful hit guns (claymore, javelin...).

[Original Twigman]

Annomander wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

also, a claymore cannot OHK a moving phantom without the proper debuffs/TC weapon damage boosts.

Wrong.

It's called headshots you scrub. (saying is copyright of Feneckus)

anytime someone initiates generalized nonsense about the difference in platforms is stupidly unnecessary.

The fact that the GI gets a ROF bonus, its easy to out DPS a claymore/GI with the crusader, considering that, a single crusader shot will do roughly half the damage of single claymore shot, yet be able to fire each shot more than twice as fast, i doubt the crusader will get out-dps'ed on bosses, especially when considering it already gets A) innate piercing B)the ability to stack both piercing mods to be able to perform double hits on an atlas, and C) allows you to put an ammo consumable to increase damage to shields/barriers, without sacrificing that much damage output

if you want to debate, fine. However, the console vs. PC crap is old and played out

Modifié par Original Stikman, 10 mai 2013 - 08:03 .

[TMB903]

Yep that's very annoying.

[Tallgeese_VII]

Because I need this weapon in every game.

[UnknownMercenary]

Original Stikman wrote...

anytime someone initiates generalized nonsense about the difference in platforms is stupidly unnecessary.

The fact that the GI gets a ROF bonus, its easy to out DPS a claymore/GI with the crusader, considering that, a single crusader shot will do roughly half the damage of single claymore shot, yet be able to fire each shot more than twice as fast, i doubt the crusader will get out-dps'ed on bosses, especially when considering it already gets A) innate piercing B)the ability to stack both piercing mods to be able to perform double hits on an atlas, and C) allows you to put an ammo consumable to increase damage to shields/barriers, without sacrificing that much damage output

if you want to debate, fine. However, the console vs. PC crap is old and played out

IMO with the firing delay on the Crusader, you're either spamming it to compensate for its inaccuracy or taking your time to line up shots, which is roughly the same time as a reload cancel on the Claymore.

I will concede the ability to double hit Atlases without AP ammo, but both weapons are great boss killers to begin with.

[cronshaw]

Annomander wrote...


The reegar doesn't exist. And if it did, only pansies would use it.

I agree with this 
the rest of these posts make my brain hurt
too many words and stuff

[Fortack]

Annomander wrote...

The reegar doesn't exist. And if it did, only pansies would use it.

This man speaks the truth!

Original Stikman wrote...

The fact that the GI gets a ROF bonus, its easy to out DPS a claymore/GI with the crusader, considering that, a single crusader shot will do roughly half the damage of single claymore shot, yet be able to fire each shot more than twice as fast, i doubt the crusader will get out-dps'ed on bosses, especially when considering it already gets A) innate piercing B)the ability to stack both piercing mods to be able to perform double hits on an atlas, and C) allows you to put an ammo consumable to increase damage to shields/barriers, without sacrificing that much damage output

I don't think using the GI as a benchmark is a good idea. You raise a couple good points about the Crusader's advantages though. Problem is that the Crusader is almost unusable offhost, doesn't ignore shield-gate like the Claymore does and to utilize its full potential DPS also means you have to expose yourself longer.

[IamZAE]

claymore X sustained dps with reload cancel=833.38
crusader X sustained dps with reload cancel=890.85



reegar carbine X sustained dps with reload cancel=3885.72

annomander prepare to get yo neck broken and your body cremated with my dark lord reegar carbine scrub

[Tallgeese_VII]

There is little point comparing numbers with Claymore though.

I`d rather have higher chance to single shot enemy with Claymore compared to Raider/Wraith.
I`d rather shoot once with Claymore compared to Crusader`s multiple shot.
I`d rather kill multiple enemies lined up with Claymore using smart choke.
I`d rather shoot safely from hard cover with Claymore compared to Reegar.

Claymore may not always perform better than other shotguns.
It`s far from being my favorite gun..
but the way that weapon works and how its functionality improves with player`s skill and performace helps me understand all the hypes.

I mean... if you wanna take something for performance reason..
Just take Harrier for every character combined with Reegar/Acolyte.

Modifié par Tallgeese_VII, 10 mai 2013 - 08:27 .

[Lathlaer]

Deerber wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

he has no debuff or weapon damage bossting powers. if you don't have either one of those, you can't do it.

Original Stikman wrote...

asari justicar w/out prime/warp? nah

...

I'll let you figure this out by yourself.

If you can't, tomorrow I'll give you a list of characters that can OHK a phantom and a ravager without TC or any debuff.

Now I've gotta go, sorry! 

If the things peddro and corlist were saying about ravager taking sometimes double damage with enough piercing is true, then a human soldier with adrenaline rush, shotgun amp V, rail amp III and warp IV would be able to OHK it. If it's a perfect double damage shot then even the adrenaline rush isn't needed.

Also, according to tyhw's weapon calculator, OHK a phantom is very easy.

[Original Twigman]

Fortack wrote...

Annomander wrote...

The reegar doesn't exist. And if it did, only pansies would use it.

This man speaks the truth!

Original Stikman wrote...

The fact that the GI gets a ROF bonus, its easy to out DPS a claymore/GI with the crusader, considering that, a single crusader shot will do roughly half the damage of single claymore shot, yet be able to fire each shot more than twice as fast, i doubt the crusader will get out-dps'ed on bosses, especially when considering it already gets A) innate piercing B)the ability to stack both piercing mods to be able to perform double hits on an atlas, and C) allows you to put an ammo consumable to increase damage to shields/barriers, without sacrificing that much damage output

I don't think using the GI as a benchmark is a good idea. You raise a couple good points about the Crusader's advantages though. Problem is that the Crusader is almost unusable offhost, doesn't ignore shield-gate like the Claymore does and to utilize its full potential DPS also means you have to expose yourself longer.

the .02 second delay is hardly noticeable on-host or off-host, it is very usable.

[UnknownMercenary]

Original Stikman wrote...

the .02 second delay is hardly noticeable on-host or off-host, it is very usable.

we must be playing a different game

[WaffleCrab]

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

There is little point comparing numbers with Claymore though.

I`d rather have higher chance to single shot enemy with Claymore compared to Raider/Wraith.
I`d rather shoot once with Claymore compared to Crusader`s multiple shot.
I`d rather kill multiple enemies lined up with Claymore using smart choke.
I`d rather shoot safely from hard cover with Claymore compared to Reegar.

Claymore may not always perform better than other shotguns.
It`s far from being my favorite gun..
but the way that weapon works and how its functionality improves with player`s skill and performace helps me understand all the hypes.

I mean... if you wanna take something for performance reason..
Just take Harrier for every character combined with Reegar/Acolyte.

i pretty much one hit with the first shot any mook that comes my way with my cabal when i am weilding a raider, about 90% of the time, so it is a rather forgiving weapon, and seriously, with that pattern.... how much do you have to suck at aiming if you miss both shots o_O comparing claymore and raider and/or wraith, is like comparing widow and black widow. Just face it, the one with more shots, but close to the same damage as the one mentioned first are more practical, not to mention less ammo hungryon the long run.

[Fortack]

Original Stikman wrote...

the .02 second delay is hardly noticeable on-host or off-host, it is very usable.

I find it very annoying. It's pretty bad in my own games, but offhost it drives me crazy at times - I blew your bloody head off Marauder, how the heck did you manage to land your elbow in my face?!!!
If the Crusader was more responsive - like the Paladin or Saber, for example - I would like it better.

[Caldari Ghost]

Ohnenick wrote...

 The Claymoar is one of the best sniper rifles in the game!
*strolls into a corner and waits*

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
you are evil

[Tallgeese_VII]

WaffleCrab wrote...

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

There is little point comparing numbers with Claymore though.

I`d rather have higher chance to single shot enemy with Claymore compared to Raider/Wraith.
I`d rather shoot once with Claymore compared to Crusader`s multiple shot.
I`d rather kill multiple enemies lined up with Claymore using smart choke.
I`d rather shoot safely from hard cover with Claymore compared to Reegar.

Claymore may not always perform better than other shotguns.
It`s far from being my favorite gun..
but the way that weapon works and how its functionality improves with player`s skill and performace helps me understand all the hypes.

I mean... if you wanna take something for performance reason..
Just take Harrier for every character combined with Reegar/Acolyte.

i pretty much one hit with the first shot any mook that comes my way with my cabal when i am weilding a raider, about 90% of the time, so it is a rather forgiving weapon, and seriously, with that pattern.... how much do you have to suck at aiming if you miss both shots o_O comparing claymore and raider and/or wraith, is like comparing widow and black widow. Just face it, the one with more shots, but close to the same damage as the one mentioned first are more practical, not to mention less ammo hungryon the long run.

I have no plan of making Raider or Wraith look bad. I use them quite often and enjoy them.
..but when it comes to taking down mooks with single shot, They don`t even come close to Claymore(Naturally).

[OniGanon]

The Crusader has no delay at all. It shoots a bullet exactly when you pull the trigger. The thing is, it shoots it wherever you were pointing 0.02s ago. So if you're flailing your arms around like a drowning Turian, you won't hit a damn thing.

To use it, you need to STOP following the enemy with your gun and instead point it ahead of them where you predict they will be within the next fraction of a second, momentarily stop moving your cursor, then shoot when the crosshair lights up red.

This is all pretty irrelevant against bosses anyway. They're too large for it to be an issue.