179 réponses à ce sujet

[Kirrahe Airlines CEO]

I'm just gonna put in my two cents. I love the claymore, don't really care at this point if it has weapons that out-DPS it. I just love the shotgun and I alternate between the wraith and the claymore. I think those two shotguns are my most used SGs in mp.

[Ohnenick]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

Ohnenick wrote...

 The Claymoar is one of the best sniper rifles in the game!
*strolls into a corner and waits*

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
you are evil

*goes to bed at peace with the world*

Thank you, sir...

Modifié par Ohnenick, 10 mai 2013 - 09:52 .

[FlowCytometry]

its impossible for the Claymore to be over-hyped to a PC scrub like me

it is probably too heavily dependent on RCing, though. That said, no gun feels as satisfying to use as the Claymore, imo, even long after the new guns and power creep has settled in. Still one of the best burst dmg guns in the game- having explosive optimal dps while exposing urself minimally to fire is one of its best properties (that, and its got a generous enough spread for easy aiming at most ranges).

The only reason I'm not one of those guys that puts a Claymore on everything is cause guns like the Talon exist.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 10 mai 2013 - 09:55 .

[WaffleCrab]

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

There is little point comparing numbers with Claymore though.

I`d rather have higher chance to single shot enemy with Claymore compared to Raider/Wraith.
I`d rather shoot once with Claymore compared to Crusader`s multiple shot.
I`d rather kill multiple enemies lined up with Claymore using smart choke.
I`d rather shoot safely from hard cover with Claymore compared to Reegar.

Claymore may not always perform better than other shotguns.
It`s far from being my favorite gun..
but the way that weapon works and how its functionality improves with player`s skill and performace helps me understand all the hypes.

I mean... if you wanna take something for performance reason..
Just take Harrier for every character combined with Reegar/Acolyte.

i pretty much one hit with the first shot any mook that comes my way with my cabal when i am weilding a raider, about 90% of the time, so it is a rather forgiving weapon, and seriously, with that pattern.... how much do you have to suck at aiming if you miss both shots o_O comparing claymore and raider and/or wraith, is like comparing widow and black widow. Just face it, the one with more shots, but close to the same damage as the one mentioned first are more practical, not to mention less ammo hungryon the long run.

I have no plan of making Raider or Wraith look bad. I use them quite often and enjoy them.
..but when it comes to taking down mooks with single shot, They don`t even come close to Claymore(Naturally).

considering i one hit them on gold, i havent had a need for the damn thing in a looong time, albeit i sometimes do go back to my Hsol, with adrenaline fueled double shot claymore, mmm dem cookies.

[Taritu]

I'm in the camp which says it has the best feel to it. It's also bloody effective. And with a choke, on small to mid size maps you can essentially snipe with it.

[joker_jack]

Taritu wrote...

I'm in the camp which says it has the best feel to it. It's also bloody effective. And with a choke, on small to mid size maps you can essentially snipe with it.

Nope wraith is way more effective at, well...everything. Though lately been loving the jav. A gun that can kill a phantom by shooting it in the *ss.

[me0120]

megabeast37215 wrote...

me0120 wrote...

I sincerely think the Claymore is sub par when compared to UR's. I tested it back to back with maxed consumables on Platinum against the other top tier shotguns and was extremely disappointed.

LOLno.... not with perfect RC it's not...

Ah, reload cancel. The easiest game mechanic to master. :innocent:

[Deerber]

There's something I would like to add to the argument, by the way. Before answering a couple of posts.

And it's something that I feel nobody mentioned although it's at the core of why the claymore is such a great gun.

It's the capability to hide a reload into a power animation.

Now, I know this can be done with all kind of guns (although it's much easier with single shot guns like the claymore or the javelin).

But... What is the purpose of doing this, damage-wise? It's pretty easy. It's done so that you can continue to put out a respectable DPS (sometimes even higher than the gun's) while you reload the gun.

It can be done with all guns but, by its own nature, it increases your DPS output while using a gun that reloads a lot (i.e: a one-shot gun) dramatically, while only slightly if you use a higher rof, multiple shots weapon like the crusader.

To illustrate this, let's see what happens when a claymore, or a crusader, is put in the hands of a Drellguard. It's just one example and a pretty extreme one to show what I mean, but the same conclusion can be drawn for every kit with a damaging power, that is, for every kit not relieing only on their gun.

Assumptions I will make for the sake of clarity: fitness specced for power, power, weapon damage. Charge rank 5 will not be counted in the analysis so as not to improve one or the other side. No ammo damage applied cause they can behave weirdly and do not change anything for our aim. Only consumable will be a shotgun amp III and no power amp (which actually favors the crusader). A claymore does two cycles of RC and shoot during the time a crusader does one cycle.

All these assumptions are pretty accurate although not completely, and in any case the result of this analysis will be so one-sided that it will show my point regardless of these assumptions.

Now, damage with a claymore is 2925, with a crusader it's 1400. Cluster damage is 2550.

Claymore shoots twice and hides reload twice in the grenades. Total damage: 10950.

Crusader shoots 4 times and hides the reload in the grenades. Total damage: 8150.


That's a whopping 25% more damage for the claymore.

Conclusion: against bosses of any kind, the claymore is a superior weapon under pretty much every point of view, since it also requires you to be under fire for mush less time.

Same conclusion can be drawn for pretty much any character with a quite high damaging power. And there are tons of them.

Against mooks things go differently because, as people mentioned, claymore is overkill and waste of dps against them, I'm not denieing this. It gets to the point where each gun has its own style and advantages, and neither can be said to actually be superior. Against mooks. Against bosses, it's a no contest, unless you're using a weapon-only class.



Bottom line: one-shot weapons are actually much more powerful than they appear on paper, on power using classes. This is one of the reasons why, as someone pointed out, they get a lot of support here on bsn.


Now:

Lathlaer wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

he has no debuff or weapon damage bossting powers. if you don't have either one of those, you can't do it.

Original Stikman wrote...

asari justicar w/out prime/warp? nah

...

I'll let you figure this out by yourself.

If you can't, tomorrow I'll give you a list of characters that can OHK a phantom and a ravager without TC or any debuff.

Now I've gotta go, sorry! 

If the things peddro and corlist were saying about ravager taking sometimes double damage with enough piercing is true, then a human soldier with adrenaline rush, shotgun amp V, rail amp III and warp IV would be able to OHK it. If it's a perfect double damage shot then even the adrenaline rush isn't needed.

Also, according to tyhw's weapon calculator, OHK a phantom is very easy.

Ravagers actually have even four-hit glitch points. Plus, you're not accounting for the damage the sack do when they burst. AR is definitely not needed to OHK a ravager with a claymore.

Phantoms are harder than what you think because landing a clean all-pellet headshot ain't that easy, and because they have a tremendous amount of DR even off host, which I'm sure Thyw's calculator is not considering. It's still possible, but I'd say it's probably harder than for ravagers.

That said, theorycrafting is nice and good, but what really is important is in-game experience. And I know by experience that I can OHK both those enemies with a variety of classes that do not use TC nor debuffs. If you allow for a claymore shot alongside a power (which does not increase the time needed to kill, see above), even if it's not a debuff or TC/MM/AR, the amount of classes capable of doing that becomes even much higher.

UnknownMercenary wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

the .02 second delay is hardly noticeable on-host or off-host, it is very usable.

we must be playing a different game 

QFT. I didn't raise that point until now because I know there are people who don't have a problem with it. Me though, it makes the gun unusable.

[Gao Qiu]

Besides Wafflecrab, not enough Raider in the discussion. DHKany, I am disappoint.

For effortless mook killing, Raider is great. No weird shot delays or tin can sound (wraith), and at the right range can get incredibly quick kills in succession. Also when lagging, those extra 3-4 shots just DESTROY bosses - calculate the DPS on THAT!

[tetsutsuru]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

GriM_AoD wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

dextro tech ftw

Aye! Hear hear!

"Dextro tech"?  Not really.  Quarians reverse-engineered both the Reegar and the Arc Pistol from Cerberus' Arc Projector in ME2.

they made it their own? it is dextro tech based off of cerberus tech.  simple.

What?  No.  You can't claim invention of the wheel by simply making a smaller one and of slightly different design.

[Caldari Ghost]

tetsutsuru wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

GriM_AoD wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

dextro tech ftw

Aye! Hear hear!

"Dextro tech"?  Not really.  Quarians reverse-engineered both the Reegar and the Arc Pistol from Cerberus' Arc Projector in ME2.

they made it their own? it is dextro tech based off of cerberus tech.  simple.

What?  No.  You can't claim invention of the wheel by simply making a smaller one and of slightly different design.

cerberus didn't make the reeger or arc pistol. that anology is irrelevant.

and anyways you are a complete killjoy. we don't care who made what here. That wasn't the point of my original post.

Modifié par Caldari Ghost, 11 mai 2013 - 01:21 .

[Caldari Ghost]

Ohnenick wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

Ohnenick wrote...

 The Claymoar is one of the best sniper rifles in the game!
*strolls into a corner and waits*

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
you are evil

*goes to bed at peace with the world*

Thank you, sir...

                                                                



i am gathering an army. WE WILL BURN THE HERETICS!!!!!!!

Modifié par Caldari Ghost, 11 mai 2013 - 01:24 .

[d_nought]

Deerber wrote...

There's something I would like to add to the argument, by the way. Before answering a couple of posts.

And it's something that I feel nobody mentioned although it's at the core of why the claymore is such a great gun.

It's the capability to hide a reload into a power animation.

But... What is the purpose of doing this, damage-wise? It's pretty easy. It's done so that you can continue to put out a respectable DPS (sometimes even higher than the gun's) while you reload the gun.

Depends on the power.

[Ohnenick]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

Ohnenick wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

Ohnenick wrote...

 The Claymoar is one of the best sniper rifles in the game!
*strolls into a corner and waits*

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
you are evil

*goes to bed at peace with the world*

Thank you, sir...

                                                                

i am gathering an army. WE WILL BURN THE HERETICS!!!!!!!

The Emperor protects!

[Boog_89]

It only has one bullet, you are far better of with the scimitar since that holds 8 bullets per drum.

[Deerber]

d_nought wrote...

Deerber wrote...

There's something I would like to add to the argument, by the way. Before answering a couple of posts.

And it's something that I feel nobody mentioned although it's at the core of why the claymore is such a great gun.

It's the capability to hide a reload into a power animation.

But... What is the purpose of doing this, damage-wise? It's pretty easy. It's done so that you can continue to put out a respectable DPS (sometimes even higher than the gun's) while you reload the gun.

Depends on the power.

Uh? If it's not a direct damage power, it's a debuff, which in turn leads to a higher damage, so it's the same.

[WaffleCrab]

Deerber wrote...

*snip*

You conviniently left out the fact that in the same time it takes for the claymore to dish out the 4 shots with cancels, the crusader has already laid down 6 if not more. love how people leave things like that out of the equation, not to mention, to get that reliable damage on the claymore, you either need to have a choke and a character that has some degree of accuracy or damage buff to negate the spread down range, GI for example, or some of the soldiers, or the target needs to be big enough.
While the crusader, if you have spent any time playing FPS games becomes second nature to anyone who knows how to recoil cancel while rapid firing weapons that kick like a mule, and you dont need a buff to compensate for accuracy, as it is practically pinpoint accurate. albeit, i still prefer raider and wraith over it, since one can spread the damage more, you are less prone to go low on ammo, and finally, you can use your talents at a reliable pace.

[stysiaq]

Deerber wrote...

d_nought wrote...

Deerber wrote...

There's something I would like to add to the argument, by the way. Before answering a couple of posts.

And it's something that I feel nobody mentioned although it's at the core of why the claymore is such a great gun.

It's the capability to hide a reload into a power animation.

But... What is the purpose of doing this, damage-wise? It's pretty easy. It's done so that you can continue to put out a respectable DPS (sometimes even higher than the gun's) while you reload the gun.

Depends on the power.

Uh? If it's not a direct damage power, it's a debuff, which in turn leads to a higher damage, so it's the same.

False. It can always be a Sentry Turret deployment, or a Homing Grenade which will reach the target a year fater it's death

[d_nought]

Deerber wrote...

d_nought wrote...

Deerber wrote...

There's something I would like to add to the argument, by the way. Before answering a couple of posts.

And it's something that I feel nobody mentioned although it's at the core of why the claymore is such a great gun.

It's the capability to hide a reload into a power animation.

But... What is the purpose of doing this, damage-wise? It's pretty easy. It's done so that you can continue to put out a respectable DPS (sometimes even higher than the gun's) while you reload the gun.

Depends on the power.

Uh? If it's not a direct damage power, it's a debuff, which in turn leads to a higher damage, so it's the same.

Not quite what I meant.

For some powers, the cooldowns synchronise better with the Wraith or Talon for reload masking.

[Deerber]

WaffleCrab wrote...

Deerber wrote...

*snip*

You conviniently left out the fact that in the same time it takes for the claymore to dish out the 4 shots with cancels, the crusader has already laid down 6 if not more. love how people leave things like that out of the equation, not to mention, to get that reliable damage on the claymore, you either need to have a choke and a character that has some degree of accuracy or damage buff to negate the spread down range, GI for example, or some of the soldiers, or the target needs to be big enough.
While the crusader, if you have spent any time playing FPS games becomes second nature to anyone who knows how to recoil cancel while rapid firing weapons that kick like a mule, and you dont need a buff to compensate for accuracy, as it is practically pinpoint accurate. albeit, i still prefer raider and wraith over it, since one can spread the damage more, you are less prone to go low on ammo, and finally, you can use your talents at a reliable pace.

Sometimes I worry about you, man.

Do you know how to read english and numbers?

If you do, did you read what I wrote?

d_nought wrote...

Deerber wrote...

d_nought wrote...

Deerber wrote...

There's something I would like to add to the argument, by the way. Before answering a couple of posts.

And it's something that I feel nobody mentioned although it's at the core of why the claymore is such a great gun.

It's the capability to hide a reload into a power animation.

But... What is the purpose of doing this, damage-wise? It's pretty easy. It's done so that you can continue to put out a respectable DPS (sometimes even higher than the gun's) while you reload the gun.

Depends on the power.

Uh? If it's not a direct damage power, it's a debuff, which in turn leads to a higher damage, so it's the same.

Not quite what I meant.

For some powers, the cooldowns synchronise better with the Wraith or Talon for reload masking.

Ah sorrry, I didn't understand that.

It's not exactly true in my experience. I mean ok, the claymore doesn't synchronise perfectly with some powers, that's ture, but no power sincronyse with the talon. You waste a lot of no CD time if you only fire the power during reloads. The Wraith's better already, but the fact that it has that aweful rof makes it worse than the claymore at this. Althought it's better at a lot of other things.

[N7 Panda]

Notorious P I G wrote...

Nookleartek pls

[Ohnenick]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Jack Crapper wrote...

Bored, are we?

Pretty much. Figured we haven't had a flamewar in a while.

Mission accomplished...

Modifié par Ohnenick, 11 mai 2013 - 03:19 .

[ToaOrka]

Say what you will, the Claymore is one of the better
shotguns in this game. The only shotgun I'd take over
the Claymore is the Wraith.

[DHKany]

Supreme Overlord Raider.