278 réponses à ce sujet

[SpamBot2000]

Optimystic_X wrote...

No, BSN is indeed skewed, but by far it is in the other direction.

That just goes to show that BW have squandered their fanbase. Every one of those "skewed" in that other direction probably was a fan.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

...and the result of that betrayal is anti-Bioware predisposition. It's not an unfair statement at all. If people didn't want to give that impression then they need to either be less emotional or more articulate. I don't think it's a communication issue, so therefore I believe their message is genuine.

While a lot of the posts have been loaded with emotion, there have been more than a few well articulated and reasonable posts we have gathered around.  Particularly from posters like 3dandbeyond and Drayfish. 

Of course, repeated trollings, insults, and condescension have taken their toll on a lot of us as well.  I'm not to proud to admit my own temper wears thin at times.

I like 3DandBeyond so I'm not going to say anything mean, but yes her rhetoric uses a lot of pathos. Not in a malicious way that destroys meaningful discussion, but in a way where it's pretty easy to dispute her arguments.

[spirosz]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Yet another non-BSN poll (with a far, far larger sample size) showing very favorable reactions to the EC. As expected.

That vocal minority gets smaller by the day.

You know I voted in that, I voted that it met my expectation. I expected it to not fix the issue and I wasn't wrong. The phrase you're looking for is misleading results.

Oh snap! 

[Mastone]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

No, I don't believe that at all. Yes, BSN compromises of those who are passionate about their love or hate of the game but there are those who are in the middle. The middle ground is always the biggest, and it's not necessarily reflected by the polarizing nature of BSN.

Maybe so, but it's hardly fair to assume some "anti-BioWare predisposition" for people on BSN. If some are angry, it's because they feel betrayed. The disposition is not a "pre-" one, rather a post-disposition.

I've yet to post anything on any other game's forum. Because I don't feel so strongly about any of them. Some have been great and some have sucked. But this one actually hurt me.

-1- whatever their later faults, Bioware did create a breathing, relatable universe, which you felt attached too.
-2- ME was a trilogy, which meant that people would spend roughly around 4-5 years playing in that universe and explored every possible outcome of their choices.
-3- because of point 2 the ending came as a shock to most people who were expecting that their ending would be influenced by their choices and allegances.

The ending of ME3, gave me the same betrayed empty feeling Indiana Jones 4 and the Starwars prequels did.
Some people here would argue that this is an achievement in itself, I beg to differ.
It is like cheating your wife with her best friend and claim that because the marriage lasted for 20 years she shouldn't feel bad about it all and stop focus on how it ended ( yes I know it is an exageration).
In the end these people were making a product catered to an audience and they delivered a shoddy product, simply by the fact that a lot of people ( not all of course) were gutted by the ending and overall quality of the latest installment ( which I was willing to forgive as I did with ME2, providing that at least in the end you made a valid and logical choice).
I also think that because of  how Bioware choose to end it all, a sequel is out of the question unless they either retcon everything you the player did in ME1,2&3 or import your choice ( we all know how well that was implemented in the ME games...) and a prequel is not very satisfying since you know you won't be able to defeat the reapers and even if you did you will have a confrontation with space Casper which to a lot of people ( including me) is not something we are willing to go through again.

The only reall viable option ( imo) is that they ask Blur studios to create a nice CG epiloque movie where they see Shepard waking up after the breath scene ( basically confirming IT, even though I dislike IT  at least it is better than a rogue AI) and show how it al ended  and how the state of the world/universe  is at the beginning of the next game.
At any rate they should hier a damned good writer to explain away the ending that they have created , preferably in the most simple and cleanest way without getting to technical ..like midichlorians

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...
Yes, there is a hostile mindset towards anything Bioware produces after a certain controversy. You can make the argument that this actually started with DA2 and not ME3. People can develop predispositions...you don't get it at birth.

And I'm one of those who was not terribly disappointed in DA2 (not as good as DAO, but still a decent game in its own right)  and when the rumors of ME3's endings started cropping up I took a vacation from BSN so I could see them without preconceived ideas.

So yeah, my mindset on ME3 is 100% earned by Bioware. 

MEWhatever, eyah I'll be approaching that with a predisposition, though.  I don't envy the Montreal team.  They got left with a real mess to sort out.

[SpamBot2000]

Mastone wrote...

The ending of ME3, gave me the same betrayed empty feeling Indiana Jones 4 and the Starwars prequels did.

I felt ME3 was way worse than those movies. I mean, they sucked alright, and did their best to wreck my 2 childhood favorites, but at least I didn't play the lead character in them. And, for personal reasons, I was not very entertained by the forced suicide. Let's just say my Shepard represented non-suicidal aspects.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 12 mai 2013 - 07:02 .

[AlanC9]

Mastone wrote...
Well I think the main thing at this point is that Bioware is selling games on their name alone

And this is where you've lost me.

[Iakus]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Mastone wrote...

The ending of ME3, gave me the same betrayed empty feeling Indiana Jones 4 and the Starwars prequels did.

I felt ME3 was way worse than those movies. I mean, they sucked alright, but at least I didn't play the lead character in them. And, for personal reasons, I was not very entertained by the forced suicide.

Heck even if Shepard could live in those endings, I'm not sure mine would want to, after inflicting one of those endings on the galaxy...

Modifié par iakus, 12 mai 2013 - 07:05 .

[AresKeith]

AlanC9 wrote...

Mastone wrote...
Well I think the main thing at this point is that Bioware is selling games on their name alone

And this is where you've lost me.

I think he means they should self publish themselves

[Mastone]

AresKeith wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Mastone wrote...
Well I think the main thing at this point is that Bioware is selling games on their name alone

And this is where you've lost me.

I think he means they should self publish themselves

No what I meant was that back in the day Bioware was such a quality powerhouse that whatever they made to many people was an instant buy.
With everything that has happened with DA2, ME3. KOTOR online, I think that a lot of people have lost that feeling with Bioware.

After having played KOTOR 1 and ME1 I couldn't wait until Bioware released their new installment ( I liked DA:O, but found the difference between races not that much different and didn't find the game that engaging), when I heard that they were making KOTOR a "storydriven" MMO, I never had the urge to play that game, when I finished ME3 I was so outraged about the lack of ..well everything that makes a game even remotely good I never wanted to touch their titles again.

The only reason I am posting here is, because I really hope that Bioware find their way again, because they used to be very good at making games instead of being good at marketing

[PsyrenY]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

No, BSN is indeed skewed, but by far it is in the other direction.

That just goes to show that BW have squandered their fanbase. Every one of those "skewed" in that other direction probably was a fan.

Again, you people assume you constitute the entire fanbase. It amuses me greatly.

[AlanC9]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I like 3DandBeyond so I'm not going to say anything mean, but yes her rhetoric uses a lot of pathos. Not in a malicious way that destroys meaningful discussion, but in a way where it's pretty easy to dispute her arguments.

I'll take pathos over standard-issue BSN hyperbole.

[Mastone]

Optimystic_X wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

No, BSN is indeed skewed, but by far it is in the other direction.

That just goes to show that BW have squandered their fanbase. Every one of those "skewed" in that other direction probably was a fan.

Again, you people assume you constitute the entire fanbase. It amuses me greatly.

And you are generalising everyone that is on teh other spectrum of the board, by simply stating  "you people" and furthermore are diminishing them, even trying to place yourself above them by saying "it amuses me greatly".

I for one respect that you ( and others) like the ending and think it has been well thought out and masterfully implemented, I wish that fanboys and girls could at the very least provide the same courtesy to the haters ( when they haven't said anything hurtfull or personal).

[Redbelle]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

No, I don't believe that at all. Yes, BSN compromises of those who are passionate about their love or hate of the game but there are those who are in the middle. The middle ground is always the biggest, and it's not necessarily reflected by the polarizing nature of BSN.

Maybe so, but it's hardly fair to assume some "anti-BioWare predisposition" for people on BSN. If some are angry, it's because they feel betrayed. The disposition is not a "pre-" one, rather a post-disposition.

I've yet to post anything on any other game's forum. Because I don't feel so strongly about any of them. Some have been great and some have sucked. But this one actually hurt me. People say that's silly, but it's true. 

It's not silly at all. You were invested in the game.

Unlike other sequels to games ME pulled what 'you' had done and made it canon to 'your' universe.

BW character's are awesome at the best of times. By making these interactive character's part of this own canon universe they grew on you in a way that character's such as Dante, who has a supporting cast of Nero, Lady, Trish etc can never hope to acheive.

Basically the way BW made the ME trilogy was unique. Not in the gameplay, but in how game's can form an episodic narrative across each release. (Yes, Geth, Collectors, Reaper's are different........... But Tali and Garrus/most of your crew. Your ship and it's pilot. The uphill struggle to save the galaxy. How your comrades grew as people. These were all intimate stories told over the course of how many year's of ME releases that we kept coming back to)?

The closest I can come to as an analogy is, imagine if instead of watching Star Trek you had been one of the cast member's with a fan's love of Star Trek. ME gained that Trekkie kind of cult following while allowing player's to be Capt Kirk. I'm more surprised that there are gamer's who do ask what all the fuss was about. ME was is a great collection that redefined how stories and game experience's can be metered out over years. Instead of a 'BAM' release, play for a few week's to a month, then move onto the next big thing.

Maybe it should be looked on more as neighbours in space for all the time gamer's have devoted to playing it.

[MegaSovereign]

HiddenInWar wrote...

MegaSovereign is a sloth?

I feel slightly betrayed.

A sloth astronaut. Show some damn respect.

[AresKeith]

MegaSovereign wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

MegaSovereign is a sloth?

I feel slightly betrayed.

A sloth astronaut. Show some damn respect.

What is this witchcraft?

[Mastone]

Redbelle wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

No, I don't believe that at all. Yes, BSN compromises of those who are passionate about their love or hate of the game but there are those who are in the middle. The middle ground is always the biggest, and it's not necessarily reflected by the polarizing nature of BSN.

Maybe so, but it's hardly fair to assume some "anti-BioWare predisposition" for people on BSN. If some are angry, it's because they feel betrayed. The disposition is not a "pre-" one, rather a post-disposition.

I've yet to post anything on any other game's forum. Because I don't feel so strongly about any of them. Some have been great and some have sucked. But this one actually hurt me. People say that's silly, but it's true. 

It's not silly at all. You were invested in the game.

Unlike other sequels to games ME pulled what 'you' had done and made it canon to 'your' universe.

BW character's are awesome at the best of times. By making these interactive character's part of this own canon universe they grew on you in a way that character's such as Dante, who has a supporting cast of Nero, Lady, Trish etc can never hope to acheive.

Basically the way BW made the ME trilogy was unique. Not in the gameplay, but in how game's can form an episodic narrative across each release. (Yes, Geth, Collectors, Reaper's are different........... But Tali and Garrus/most of your crew. Your ship and it's pilot. The uphill struggle to save the galaxy. How your comrades grew as people. These were all intimate stories told over the course of how many year's of ME releases that we kept coming back to)?

The closest I can come to as an analogy is, imagine if instead of watching Star Trek you had been one of the cast member's with a fan's love of Star Trek. ME gained that Trekkie kind of cult following while allowing player's to be Capt Kirk. I'm more surprised that there are gamer's who do ask what all the fuss was about. ME was is a great collection that redefined how stories and game experience's can be metered out over years. Instead of a 'BAM' release, play for a few week's to a month, then move onto the next big thing.

Maybe it should be looked on more as neighbours in space for all the time gamer's have devoted to playing it.

Well I compare ME3 to a starwars movie with blade runner elements, which at the end all of a sudden turns into hitchhikers guide to the galaxy turning spaceships in flowerpots and having discussions with spacerats.....

[SpamBot2000]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Again, you people assume you constitute the entire fanbase. It amuses me greatly.

If you can pull yourself together for a brief moment despite the overwhelming mirth "we people" provide, perhaps you will notice that I was referring to the BSN, which you yourself bemoan as a peculiar nest of "anti-BioWare" personnel. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

Optimystic_X wrote...
I meant "the largest group viewed the EC positively" is something you will never see on BSN. And the second largest may include negatives, but it certainly includes positives as well.

And honestly, if you naysayers wanted to convey your dissatisfaction yet willingly chose the option you knew that Bioware could spin the easiest, you only have yourselves to blame for any possible skew in the poll. 

The poll I've seen on BSN largely show that the view on the EC was generally split. And that quite a few people found it tolerable if not great. Though again I don't find the BSN to be particularly objective or credable but neither do I find any other poll on the matter to be so.

Right the people who've been calling us the vocal minorty since day one aren't to blame for trying to frame the situation in a certain way, at all we forced their hand. If we intentionally down voted every option presented instead of giving them an honest answer to a question, we'd be dismissed as having unreasionable expectation.

The only other option is silence, which does us no favors or to put out our own poll which will be dismissed as too small a sample size or skewed  or are you not having that discussion now?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 12 mai 2013 - 07:47 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Just in, the BSN doesn't represent the general views of the fanbase, more news at eleven.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 mai 2013 - 07:45 .

[SpamBot2000]

It has to be said: Used to be people's opinion about something was generally taken to reflect the quality of that thing. But now it's assumed to reflect the quality of the people who have the opinion. As in: If you dislike something, that is because you are "a hater". The quality of the thing you are opining on is somehow beyond all attempts at criticism.

This is nothing but a gigantic renunciation of our discerning faculties.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 12 mai 2013 - 07:48 .

[Iakus]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

It has to be said: Used to be people's opinion about something was generally taken to reflect the quality of that thing. But now it's assumed to reflect the quality of the people who have the opinion. As in: If you dislike something, that is because you are "a hater". The quality of the thing you are opining on is somehow beyond all attempts at criticism.

This is nothing but a gigantic renunciation of our discerning faculties.

Or that the hater is "confused".

But in any case, that there can't possibly be a legitimate reason for teh dislike.

[MegaSovereign]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

It has to be said: Used to be people's opinion about something was generally taken to reflect the quality of that thing. But now it's assumed to reflect the quality of the people who have the opinion. As in: If you dislike something, that is because you are "a hater". The quality of the thing you are opining on is somehow beyond all attempts at criticism.

This is nothing but a gigantic renunciation of our discerning faculties.

I only bother to criticize people's arguments because I genuinely believe they are reasonable. And the outcome will always be a win-win because even if I'm wrong about something in a debate at least I would be enlightened.

With that said, I'm always going to call people out on their hyperbolic statements. As an example, saying that the endings boil down to suicide promotion is something that I would assertively criticize.

[Mastone]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

It has to be said: Used to be people's opinion about something was generally taken to reflect the quality of that thing. But now it's assumed to reflect the quality of the people who have the opinion. As in: If you dislike something, that is because you are "a hater". The quality of the thing you are opining on is somehow beyond all attempts at criticism.

This is nothing but a gigantic renunciation of our discerning faculties.

That's because the opinions about the game are of a personal nature, it is almost like a religion even where you can't prove or disprove that a god exists so instead of focussing on resolving that matter people start bashing people who have a different point of view ( from all sides).
Par example:
I hate the endings because it didn't make sense to me from a narrative point of view and from there on for me the whole game broke down.
SOmeone with a slightly positive view with regards to the game might say that the choices presented to us by spacekid were fundamentally a choice of what character you are in the end an dthat the end in itself might not matter as much as the journey.
To me personally the latter is complete hogwash whilest for a fanboy or girl my opinion sounds like hogwash.
These 2 ( there are more of course) opinions are so contradictory that  they can't really coexist in a thread or discussion but none is really superior to the other, so that leaves everyone discussing semantics and start attacking people on a personal account

[Xamufam]

www.youtube.com/watch