114 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

I have heard recently on these forums that people, many people who used to come here, hated dragon age origins when it first came out, for the reason that they departed from traditional pen and paper mechanics a bit and that they changed some things from traditional fantasy rpg settings. I even heard that people hated the origins aspects of dragon age origins.

Than I heard later on that people have hated bioware games ever since neverwinter nights, and that confused me more, given the state of how many people say that bioware should return to making their good games, such as origins. Which a number of people apparently thought sucked when it first cam out.

So. Is this true? Or is it just a unfounded rumor? And if so, what era of games would you consider biowares "Best games" or "true games" age?

[Karlone123]

Wouldn't know, did Bioware social exist before EA becoming it's publisher?

[CronoDragoon]

David Gaider said it best that every time they came out with a new game there's a certain loud population that always crapped on it, comparing it to previous games. He said that when they released Baldur's Gate II, you would have thought it was the worst game ever based on what was being thrown their way. Baldur's-freaking-Gate-II.

[Eurypterid]

CronoDragoon wrote...

David Gaider said it best that every time they came out with a new game there's a certain loud population that always crapped on it, comparing it to previous games. He said that when they released Baldur's Gate II, you would have thought it was the worst game ever based on what was being thrown their way. Baldur's-freaking-Gate-II.

Pretty much this. I've moderated BioWare's boards for a long time now (going back to the old NWN boards) and every release that I saw had, as Gaider said, a loud core of 'haters'. When EA purchased BioWare there were even more, since it's seems to be the height of fashion amongst the general gamer population to hate on all things EA.

[slimgrin]

CronoDragoon wrote...

David Gaider said it best that every time they came out with a new game there's a certain loud population that always crapped on it, comparing it to previous games.

Bioware has always disparaged it's fanbase as angry nerds while happily cashing their checks.

[Cainhurst Crow]

slimgrin wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

David Gaider said it best that every time they came out with a new game there's a certain loud population that always crapped on it, comparing it to previous games.

Bioware has always disparaged it's fanbase as angry nerds while happily cashing their checks.

So you don't think there might be some truth to the criticism bioware has on it's fans?

I don't like to generalize or make such negative comparasions myself, but at the same time, I do see those generalized comparisions being confirmed by members of these forums.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 12 mai 2013 - 10:29 .

[CronoDragoon]

slimgrin wrote...

Bioware has always disparaged it's fanbase as angry nerds while happily cashing their checks.

A portion of the fanbase, yes. Because a portion of any game fanbase consists of angry nerds. That's almost a truism.

[ObserverStatus]

Um yeah, I think so. I wasn't a fan back than, but weren't there a whole mess of people who were hating on Knights of the Old Republic back in the day for dumbing the genre down for the console gaming peasants or something?

Modifié par bobobo878, 12 mai 2013 - 10:33 .

[Maverick827]

No, everyone in the internet was mature and sensible before EA purchased BioWare.

[slimgrin]

Maverick827 wrote...

No, everyone in the internet was mature and sensible before EA purchased BioWare.

The EA PR approach doesn't very seem mature and sensible to me. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 mai 2013 - 11:12 .

[Degs29]

As recently as a couple years ago, Bioware was my favourite developer. I loved DA2 and the ending of ME3 was a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things. The part that bugs me about them (and several other developers) is their recent targeting of DLC and micro-transactions as a revenue stream. For some time, this reliance has been a major concern of mine.

[Il Divo]

There definitely were Bioware games that I hated pre-EA (Baldur's Gate 1, Neverwinter Nights 1, Mass Effect 1 to a lesser extent). Bioware demonstrated that they don't need a publisher with a bad rep to produce bad games (imo).

I just happened to start posting on the Bioware forums after the EA purchase, specifcally after the launch of ME2, which was when I first saw all the EA hate, justified or not.

[Maverick827]

slimgrin wrote...

The EA PR approach doesn't very seem mature and sensible to me. 

Was there supposed to be a point somewhere in there?

Degs29 wrote...

The part that bugs me about them (and several other developers) is their recent targeting of DLC and micro-transactions as a revenue stream. For some time, this reliance has been a major concern of mine.

Why?

Modifié par Maverick827, 13 mai 2013 - 12:58 .

[Ninja Stan]

As long as I have been involved with BioWare, there has always been a portion of the community who did not enjoy the next game. When NWN was in development, there was a lot of reluctance to accept D&D 3E rules and gameplay that was different from BG2. NWN is one of BioWare's most beloved games.

When BioWare developed KotOR, parts of the community rebelled against BioWare ''selling out'' to consoles and ''action gameplay''. KotOR is one of BioWAre's best loved games.

When Jade Empire was being developed, some of the community didn't like the ''fighting game'' BioWare was making. Heck, even when Jade Empire Special Edition was being made for PC, some of the community hated that their ''console exclusive'' was being given to PC gamers.

When BioWare announced Dragon Age, some in the community lambasted the company for ''abandoning their core fans'' and the ''D&D and BG fans that made BioWare famous''. A similar thing happened when BioWare announced Mass Effect. How dare BioWare abandon its fantasy RPG fans, its BG fans, its NWN fans AND its Dragon Age fans by creating a sci-fi game!

BioWare was disliked when it was purchased by Elevation and again when it was purchased by EA. BioWare gets hate comments when EA does something bad, as well as when EA celebrates its successes. Their new projects are disliked because they are different, and then several years and several projects later, they are looked fondly upon.

I have been here on the forums through it all and it is one of the reasons I try to add a little perspective to some of the discussions regarding BioWare, EA, and the state of games and the industry.

[dreamgazer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Because a portion of any game fanbase consists of angry nerds. That's almost a truism.

No "almost" about it.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I remember people were hating hard on Joshua Sawyer when he was working on Fallout: Van Buren. People said that any tangent from turn-based combat would ruin the game. Well, they got their wish in that Van Buren wasn't released, but Fallout: 3 sure as hell was, though.

Didn't know people actually hated on Dragon Age: Origins. It's definitely the best BioWare game I've played, even though my only other BioWare game was Baldur's Gate: 1 and a little of 2. Regardless, would be dumb for anyone to hate on Origins as everything after has been pretty bad.

[cgtrfghj7]

I can't put a finger on what year but the term '****' got thrown around quite a lot even before the EA acquisition IIRC. Most likely by fans of other RPG developer houses like Bethesda and Interplay.

Edit: LOL the term is considered offensive on this site I guess. No surprise. (bio-drone)

Modifié par cgtrfghj7, 13 mai 2013 - 03:47 .

[DukeOfNukes]

Yes, there's some hate for everything. However, part of my problem with BioWare (since EA bought them) has been the dismissal of their fan base. When people rallied against the ending, BioWare claimed they were a "vocal minority", and continue to do so to this day. I take issue with anyone that shows a blantant unwillingness to admit their mistakes.

The acquisition by EA brought out a lot of hate, most of it justified. I was willing to give them a chance, despite them sabotaging multiple developers they had previously owned (particularly WestWood)...but the truth is, EA has done a lot to hurt the industry, and very little to help it out.

So, yes, there's been plenty of hate over the years, but I would say it seems to have increased significantly since the buy out.

[deuce985]

I remember old BSN. People whined then too. The difference now compared to then is that Bioware wasn't mainstream. The people who whined on each release was a very small portion because Bioware games weren't big sellers. Their games are selling millions now so naturally you will get a lot more crying. Older Bioware filled more of a niche for gaming but you still had the shouters.

So yes, people complained even before Bioware got EAfied as these forums like to call it.

Moral of the story: People **** just to **** consistently on here and every other gamer forum. I have to admit, the worst thing about gamers is how loud we can be and self-entitled a lot believe they are.

Modifié par deuce985, 13 mai 2013 - 06:06 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

While it is true that Bioware have always taking flak when they release a new game, I think the only time it was justified was with DA2, which is easily Biowares worst game.

[Ninja Stan]

DukeOfNukes wrote...

Yes, there's some hate for everything. However, part of my problem with BioWare (since EA bought them) has been the dismissal of their fan base. When people rallied against the ending, BioWare claimed they were a "vocal minority", and continue to do so to this day. I take issue with anyone that shows a blantant unwillingness to admit their mistakes.

It's not a "blatant unwillingness to admit their mistakes" as a disagreement on what constitutes a "mistake" in the first place. BioWare obviously does not agree that the endings they created were a "mistake" in the way some portion of the community defines the term. Despite that, BioWare did make a concession in the form of the Extended Cut. For free, I might add.

This concession often goes unmentioned when people accuse BioWare of "not listening." They are also blamed for "pandering to the vocal minority" while also being blamed for, as you say, the "dismissal of their fan base." How a company can both pander to their fans while dismissing them is beyond me. Also, BioWare is often blamed for capitulating to the mainstream audience while ignoring the elite, hardcore audience (by definition, a minority).

Some of the more vocal fans want things both ways and have phrased their arguments as a no-lose proposition. That is, in my opinion, unreasonable.

The acquisition by EA brought out a lot of hate, most of it justified.

Indeed. How dare BioWare make business decisions for itself and align itself with a publisher that respects their work and has given them so many opportunbities to do what they do best? Much of the distaste leveled against EA is based on misinformation and general ignorance of how EA and BioWare work together, information that is generally not available to the general public.

I was willing to give them a chance, despite them sabotaging multiple developers they had previously owned (particularly WestWood)...but the truth is, EA has done a lot to hurt the industry, and very little to help it out.

Except to continue releasing AAA titles despite the skyrocketing costs such titles have experienced over the last decade. Except to come up with creative ways to maintain some kind of profit margin on such titles, since fans are unwiling to accept an increase in retail price and are vocal in resisting any and all potential alternatives to such an increase. Besides that, EA cannot be accused of being both "greedy and money-grubbing" as well as a "buy them, milk them, and chut them down" publisher, as those two concepts are diametrically opposed. Profitable studios are generally not shut down, and milking a studio for all it's worth generally means having them be as profitable as possible for as long as possible. In the case of Origin Systems, this was 12 years, hardly a "love 'em and leave 'em" arrangement.

Read The Conquest of Origin for a different perspective.

So, yes, there's been plenty of hate over the years, but I would say it seems to have increased significantly since the buy out.

Indeed it has. A "corporate" company will usually get more dislike thrown at it than an independent studio. Everyone loves rooting for an underdog, and BioWare was the plucky underdog for many years.

None of this hate or dislike is neessarily a bad thing or untrue. I just hope people are cognizant of where some of it might come from and realize that it's not a new phenomenon or uncommon in communities such as this one.

[LTD]

Il Divo wrote...

There definitely were Bioware games that I hated pre-EA (Baldur's Gate 1, Neverwinter Nights 1, Mass Effect 1 to a lesser extent). Bioware demonstrated that they don't need a publisher with a bad rep to produce bad games (imo)

When it comes to games with undeniably legendary reputation and impressive legacy ( such as Baldur's Gate 1, Neverwinter Nights 1, Mass Effect 1) there isn't much room or need to get all that subjective when pondering how great they really are.

Ofc one is free to dislike and not enjoy them as much as one likes, simply queston of differing tastes and all that...
...But I claims one is not free to call em bad games. Their Reputation,reverence,longetivity and legacy just doesn't leave room for that.

Tis a bit like saying Godfather or Space Odyssey 2001 are  bad movies because you  don't like em; you can always make such claim.. Buuut you mostly get arched eyebrows rather than heatened debates from people who enjoy spending time by arguing which movies do and do not suck.

Modifié par LTD, 13 mai 2013 - 07:05 .

[mybudgee]

I hate being lied to. I swore not to spend any more money on Bioware/EA products after ME3 was shipped & I could not import my shepard. They fixed it, but MONTHS later. Sorry, but if this were a restaurant or bar, I would never go back...

This was a decision I made before I had gotten to the ending, so it just solidified my position
Sorry Bioware. You gave me some of the best times of my gaming life... but you are done, son

Modifié par mybudgee, 13 mai 2013 - 06:56 .

[NeonFlux117]

Not nearly to the extent it is now. Not. Even. Close. Now, I'm not talking about BSN cause I surely don't know, cause I've only been a member of BSN for like 6 months. But from other places and talking to other gamers, the disdain for BioWare and EA products is growing immensely.

Again BSN is a bit skewed and subjective place to poll if players are p!ssed at Bioware and EA. Go other places, youtube, twitter, facebook, ign, gamespot, kotaku and many more and anything Mass Effect or EA related goes very quickly into negative opinions and reactions.

BioWare's reputation is tarnished right now. And most gamers lament and anguish the existence of EA. So... Not a good time to be BioWare. They need at least 2 or 3 back to back to back stellar games- both critically, commercial and fan reaction to get their title back as one of, if not the best game devs in the industry. Since DA2 they've been making over hyped, under performing games.

To use a fighting term. BioWare needs some knockouts, not split decisions.

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 13 mai 2013 - 07:29 .