114 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

mybudgee wrote...

I hate being lied to. I swore not to spend any more money on Bioware/EA products after ME3 was shipped & I could not import my shepard. They fixed it, but MONTHS later. Sorry, but if this were a restaurant or bar, I would never go back...

This was a decision I made before I had gotten to the ending, so it just solidified my position
Sorry Bioware. You gave me some of the best times of my gaming life... but you are done, son

That....has nothing to do with this thread. Why bring this up?

[bleetman]

Oooh boy, but did it exist. It existed in droves. I still remember the amount of flak KotOR recieved for being apparently dumbed down console crap, or whatever vitrol was being flung at it at the time.

As to whether the negativity is more widespread (and significantly more distinct from the usual haters-gonna-hate crowd) at present than before, eh. I'd be inclined to say yes, but it's not as if I don't have a skewed perception on such things. I dont hang out on the entire internet, and all.

Modifié par bleetman, 13 mai 2013 - 07:56 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Criticism and hate are two different things. One assigns an emotion like hate to an opinion in an attempt to invalidate it.

[AllThatJazz]

I've lurked since the old Bioboards back in the BG1 days, and there have always been accusations of 'selling out', 'dumbing down', 'ripping off the customers', 'no respect for the REAL Bioware fans' etc, actually pretty much since after BG1 was released. A bunch of fans hated TotSC because it was 'too short' and 'not worth the money' and even, I seem to remember 'should have been included in the main game', heh. Then BG2 got hate because various peoples' favourite party members weren't featured (the 'devs pets' Jaheira and Minsc rage kind of reminds me of the Liara rage on the ME boards); also because there wasn't as much free roaming exploration as there was in BG1. There was also some ire at the exclusive CE merchants (yep, Bioware was offering exclusive in-game content waaay before being acquired by EA). And then of course, when ToB came out, it was nowhere near as good as that 'waste of money' Tales of the Sword Coast. Sigh.


Then comes KotOR, which completely sold out to the dirty console peasants, and obviously represented the death of Bioware. And for some, I remember, it was 'too Star Warsy' - not entirely sure what was expected from a Star Wars game ... oh yeah, and it totally proved that Bioware didn't have the talent to come up with their own IP.


NWN? Booooooring, only one companion, crap graphics, and yet more d&d? Bioware, please. NWN, and Bioware, are now 'officially' dead. Oh yeah, and even though it should NOT have been d&d, it should also have been BG3.


Enter Jade Empire (Bioware's own IP) which was immediately ripped apart for a) not being D&D or Star Wars and the dirty console peasant stuff again. This time, there was the additional rage of its being OMG CONSOLE EXCLUSIVE!!!111!eleven for all of, like, a year, and also Bioware had the temerity to not use the tactical pause, and were therefore pandering to the stoopid ARPG crowd. Talking of pandering, this was also the first Bioware game that allowed a m/m romance. Fanrage moved up a notch in response, though was mitigated somewhat by the fact that straight guys could get a three-way with Silk Fox and Dawn Star.   


And then yeah, Origins. The magic system ('you're using the mana system? How dull!'), party camp, combat, the graphics, pretty much everything about the game represented the antithesis of what REAL Bioware fans were looking for. Which was, of course, BG3.


Is there more obvious rage/hate now? Probably. Bioware is a more well-known company, sells more games, and its parent company has its own share of detractors too. More people engage actively in internet forums than they did back in the early 2000s. Also, with more games around in general and more talented devs able to get their work out there, gamers are perhaps even more critical, which isn't a bad thing. Is there a greater proportion of hate as opposed to productive criticism? Difficult to say. It's louder, certainly. And I don't recall death threats back then (though demands for staff to be fired still happened). Eh, it does feel as though a lot of the same ol' arguments go round and round, though.

Sorry for wall o' text 

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 13 mai 2013 - 09:04 .

[Cultist]

The tallest trees catch the most wind.
Like the Yankees, Lakers and Manchester United, BioWare is one of those organizations that is defined by both a legacy of success, and a legion of critics
Many continue to claim the Dragon Age 2 was a failure. It’s not. Look at IGN reviews. We can’t be any clearer – it’s not. Period.
Some claim there’s no room for SWTOR as a competitor to WoW. Millions of registered users are proving that wrong.
Some people think that romances, hack'n'slash gameplay, autodialogues and awesome buttons are a pox on wRPGs. Tens of millions more are playing and loving critically acclaimed Diablo and date simulators.
Together, we can stand against the main malignant force, that works tirelessly day after day on decreasing ratings of our games and smearing our reputation - the Homophobes.

[NeonFlux117]

Cultist wrote...

The tallest trees catch the most wind.
Like the Yankees, Lakers and Manchester United, BioWare is one of those organizations that is defined by both a legacy of success, and a legion of critics
Many continue to claim the Dragon Age 2 was a failure. It’s not. Look at IGN reviews. We can’t be any clearer – it’s not. Period.
Some claim there’s no room for SWTOR as a competitor to WoW. Millions of registered users are proving that wrong.
Some people think that romances, hack'n'slash gameplay, autodialogues and awesome buttons are a pox on wRPGs. Tens of millions more are playing and loving critically acclaimed Diablo and date simulators.
Together, we can stand against the main malignant force, that works tirelessly day after day on decreasing ratings of our games and smearing our reputation - the Homophobes.

haha, Some BioWare suit give this dude a job. He's not only a walking, talking wallet full of cash but he'll preach The Gospel of Bioware and EAcorp. Win win situation if you ask me. 

:wizard::wizard:
l

[DukeOfNukes]

If you want to judge a games success, don't go by IGN reviews. Everyone knows they get paid off, and a lot of times don't even try to hide it.

Stan, I'll read over the article you posted tomorrow. It has now been a long time since Origin, Westwood, and others, but when BioWare was bought out in 2007, it had been considerably less time. I acknowledge that EA has changed significantly, due in large part to John Ricitello, though I fear for the future of the company when the board gets their man in.

But I always hear a lot about "video game production costs skyrocketing", and I always wonder about the truth of that. They grow, no doubt, and the average cost of a game goes way up, but I have to wonder how much of that is necessary. My favorite game in the series was Mass Effect 1...what was the price difference between that and Mass Effect 2? The publishers keep playing this card, but there's no transparency...and all we have is a bunch of hearsay that sounds like a major corporation going "boo hoo, last year we made 2.5 Billion, but this year we only made 2.38 Billion. We need to raise prices."

[Il Divo]

LTD wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

There definitely were Bioware games that I hated pre-EA (Baldur's Gate 1, Neverwinter Nights 1, Mass Effect 1 to a lesser extent). Bioware demonstrated that they don't need a publisher with a bad rep to produce bad games (imo)

When it comes to games with undeniably legendary reputation and impressive legacy ( such as Baldur's Gate 1, Neverwinter Nights 1, Mass Effect 1) there isn't much room or need to get all that subjective when pondering how great they really are.

Ofc one is free to dislike and not enjoy them as much as one likes, simply queston of differing tastes and all that...
...But I claims one is not free to call em bad games. Their Reputation,reverence,longetivity and legacy just doesn't leave room for that.

Tis a bit like saying Godfather or Space Odyssey 2001 are  bad movies because you  don't like em; you can always make such claim.. Buuut you mostly get arched eyebrows rather than heatened debates from people who enjoy spending time by arguing which movies do and do not suck.

I really couldn't care less what the reputation of any of these games have. Argumentum ad popularum is pointless, especially since we could spend a great deal of time arguing which games have the "best" reputation. I would not say, for example, that Mass Effect 1 has attained that legendary status attributed to the top down games.

To use Baldur's Gate 1 as an example, we have a game which employs DnD 2.0, which I think is a terrible rules system, non-existent character interaction, and a main plot whose first 2/3s consist of a scavenger hunt finding notes across the Sword Coast. I think the game is absolute crap, despite inspiring some great products later on (pretty much everything post Neverwinter Nights).

And I do think 2001 is an abysmal movie and consider the Godfather the greatest film I've ever seen. Much how i think Planescape Torment is brilliant, while thinking that Baldur's Gate 1 was terrible. It all depends on what grounds I'm evaluating a particular product on. Attempting to add some sort of objective justification to what really are simply subjective preferences is a waste of time.

Modifié par Il Divo, 13 mai 2013 - 12:01 .

[mousestalker]

AllThatJazz wrote...

{{Major Snippage, because she is right.}}

To add to what ATJ said, I think there is less moderation than on the old boards. That may just be my perception.

[spirosz]

What do you think? There has always been hate, regardless of how big or small, every new game Bioware creates causes the same reaction of "You're not the same Bioware I remember or I want buy your future product again".

[spirosz]

Basically what Jazz said, it's the same cycle after each game.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Sure, they kept trying something different to broaden the appeal by playing around with the RPG elements creating a few hit and miss scenarios with how certain games were perceived. Add to that including new versions of the game for different consoles which got people shouting that they sold out because their exclusive wasn't an exclusive anymore (a complaint I never understood to be honest).

EA get a lot of the flak for the direction bioware goes but outside of adding an MP component being pretty much the corporate policy at this point they don't do much other than funding. Bioware has progressively tried to widen the net of appeal for their games it's not something introduced by EA but the it's been dumbed down for the Cod/Gow/skyrim crowd argument has been a common scape goat to whatever dissatisfaction the fanbase has had.

This doesn't mean all dissatisfaction with Biowares products stems from this one train of thought mind you, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't present.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 13 mai 2013 - 01:03 .

[dreamgazer]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

The people who buy the next title usually get a great amount of joy from being right in knowing that the game was pandered to everyone except themselves.

Ding, ding. Elitism and exclusivity.

And yeah, BioWare's player base is far from the only one guilty of this.

[Mathias]

Ninja Stan wrote...

It's not a "blatant unwillingness to admit their mistakes" as a disagreement on what constitutes a "mistake" in the first place. Bioware obviously does not agree that the ending the created were a "mistake" in the way some portion of the community defines the terms. Despite that, Bioware did make a concesssion in the form of the Extended Cut. For free, I might add.

Most people don't admit they made a mistake when they spent many hours and effort creating that mistake. ME3 was Bioware's baby and it hurts them to see so many people criticize it. I get that. But I know that Bioware is aware they made a mistake. 99% of the time they don't act like they did, but they know they did, because once in a blue moon you'll see them subtely admitting so. Like that recent interview with OXM. 

In case people have forgotten, March 2012 was an unbelievable disaster for  Bioware. The fan outrage over the ending was apocalyptic, every gaming related website was talking about it and creating polls on what people thought of the ending. Even to this day polls are continuing to show that most fans dislike the ending. If people know anything about "sample stats", then they will know that the fact that people who disliked the ending are majority is undeniable. This becomes more of a problem when Bioware acts like they aren't. There were two things that made me angry last year, and still does to this day. One is the ending itself, and two is Bioware's attitude towards the whole thing.

I don't think a company should bow down to the demands of the fans. That's stupid and I don't agree with anyone who thinks so. However at the end of the day, you gotta ask, who did Bioware make this game for? The fans, or themselves? In regards to the ending, it certaintly didn't feel like the ending was created with the fans in mind. 

Indeed. How dare BioWare make business decisions for itself and align itself with a publisher that respects their work and has given them so many opportunbities to do what they do best? Much of the distaste leveled against EA is based on misinformation and general ignorance of how EA and BioWare work together, information that is generally not available to the general public.

Generally you're always gonna have a portion of the fanbase disliking what you do, as you explained already. That's not something that's exclusive to Bioware though. This is something that happens to every single developer. It just comes with the territory, you can't please everyone.

But, with that said. There is no denying that the dislike for Bioware and their actions, has been on a larger and more widespread scale than ever before, ever since they joined up with EA. And that is not just because of the simple fact they're attached with EA now. Many of the actions that fans have disliked were done by Bioware themselves, and when it comes to EA, it was because of the ridiculous short time they gave Bioware to develop DA2, that the game was a rushed disappointment. A lot of EA's shady business practices have rubbed off on Bioware too. So not every single complaint about EA is justified, but a lot of it is. 




Now on a side note, Bioware has continued to disappointment me since 2011 when DA2 released. I will say that Citadel DLC was the first time since then that I have been pleased with the product. Ok the Tali song was really really stupid, but Citadel was an overall positive. So it was nice to see Bioware do something awesome for a change. 

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 13 mai 2013 - 03:52 .

[dreamgazer]

How can something be a developer's "baby" and also be a rushed, careless effort, as has been endlessly stated on the BSN for a year? 

There's a difference between the binary division between people either liking and disliking the ending, and whether the number of voices is substantial enough to do nothing, patch up a situation, or do an overhaul.  The ending fit somewhere in the middle, and the EC achieved what it was intended to do. 

There are people who dug what BioWare did, people who hated what they did, and a whole slew of people in the middle---the actual majority---who are either fine, meh, or tolerant with what was presented.  These aren't apathetic people or not "true fans", either. When you're considering resources and moving forward with creative endeavors, taking into account the entire fanbase, you have to do your own form of ruthless calculus. The Extended Cut was the midway concession.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 13 mai 2013 - 04:14 .

[Mathias]

dreamgazer wrote...

How can something be a developer's "baby" and also be a rushed, careless effort? 

Because Electronic Arts gave Bioware a deadline they had to meet. They weren't able to develop ME3 to it's full potential because EA wanted the game released before the end of the fiscal year, so they could please their shareholders with a good report.

There's a difference between the binary division between people either liking and disliking the ending, and whether the number of voices is substantial enough to do nothing, patch up a situation, or do an overhaul.  The ending fit somewhere in the middle, and the EC achieved what it was intended to do. 

What would've called for an overhaul? Suicide bombing EA/Bioware HQ? There was plenty of outrage and negative attention towards the ending, and then some. It's just that Bioware didn't want to do an overhaul.

There are people who dug what BioWare did.

Not many. We're talking a few leaves in a forest here.

and a whole slew of people in the middle---the actual majority---who are either fine, meh, or tolerant with what was presented.  These aren't apathetic people or not "true fans", either. When you're considering resources and moving forward with creative endeavors, taking into account the entire fanbase, you have to do your own form of ruthless calculus.

If assuming this is true, then in order from highest to lowest we have:

1. People who feel indifferent about the ending.
2. People who hate the ending.
3. People who liked it.

That's not exactly a good thing. And even today post DLC, ending haters outnumber the people who liked it 3 to 1 in polls. So yeah, not good.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Hasn't it been stated that ME3 wasn't rushed?

[Mathias]

DinoSteve wrote...

Hasn't it been stated that ME3 wasn't rushed?

By who? Bioware? Remember when Chris stated DA2 wasn't rushed either?

Look ME3 was absolutely rushed. Not to the same degree as DA2, but just looking at the last 3 hours of ME3, and you can tell it was rushed. Especially regarding how underwhelming Priority Mission Earth was. Then i'm pretty sure Bioware stated Leviathan DLC would've been in the game if they had more time.

It's just a shame. Had ME3 had another year of development, like it should've, we could've gotten a beast of a game.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

By Bioware, one of the devs said it, and personally I don't think it was rushed the ending is just a symptom of a bad overarching plot that never new where it was going, no matter how much time Casey Hudson had he would have still wrote the same ending.

[dreamgazer]

[quote]Mdoggy1214 wrote...

[quote]dreamgazer wrote...

How can something be a developer's "baby" and also be a rushed, careless effort?
[/quote]

Because Electronic Arts gave Bioware a deadline they had to meet. They weren't able to develop ME3 to it's full potential because EA wanted the game released before the end of the fiscal year, so they could please their shareholders with a good report.[/quote]

That's not really a "baby", then. Can't really have it both ways to support an argument.

[quote][quote]
There's a difference between the binary division between people either liking and disliking the ending, and whether the number of voices is substantial enough to do nothing, patch up a situation, or do an overhaul. The ending fit somewhere in the middle, and the EC achieved what it was intended to do. [/quote]

What would've called for an overhaul? Suicide bombing EA/Bioware HQ? There was plenty of outrage and negative attention towards the ending, and then some. It's just that Bioware didn't want to do an overhaul.[/quote]

First off, let's not resort to sensationalist extremes such as a suicide bombing. Do you really want the negativity towards a video-game ending tied to a form of terrorism? Because, hey, who's going to negotiate with terrorists?

Second, the loudness of voices doesn't dictate the physical size of their message. There are vocal, rabid detractors of the recent Star Trek reboot and how it killed the franchise, too, and other "misfires" in fiction. And their concerns are just as valid as those who have issues with ME3's ending, but the world moves forward.

[quote]
[quote]There are people who dug what BioWare did.[/quote]

Not many. We're talking a few leaves in a forest here.
[/quote]

They're still there, and some of them have presented well-reasoned and intelligent positions that are very contradictory to the "we destroy them or they destroy us" crowd. Are they worthless in the equation?

[quote][quote]
and a whole slew of people in the middle---the actual majority---who are either fine, meh, or tolerant with what was presented. These aren't apathetic people or not "true fans", either. When you're considering resources and moving forward with creative endeavors, taking into account the entire fanbase, you have to do your own form of ruthless calculus.[/quote]

If assuming this is true, then in order from highest to lowest we have:

1. People who feel indifferent about the ending.
2. People who hate the ending.
3. People who liked it.

That's not exactly a good thing. And even today post DLC, ending haters outnumber the people who liked it 3 to 1 in polls. So yeah, not good.[/quote][/quote]

That's fine, if you want to "prioritize" it like that, but producing new content isn't free, y'know. How many people would the overhaul have really affected, as opposed to the EC's patch-up job that was all-inclusive? Namely, how many of the permanent anti-BioWare crowd who consistently hammered home the message of "maybe I'll forgive, but I'll never forget"?

You have to consider climate and resources in this, too.

[quote]It's just a shame. Had ME3 had another year of development, like it should've, we could've gotten a beast of a game.[/quote]

You really don't know if the game would've been any better or worse though, do you? Writing is still writing, variables are still variables.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 13 mai 2013 - 05:00 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'm sure there's always been hate.

I know a guy who used to religiously adore BW, but thinks that every game after KotOR is god-awful.

In my opinion, the last truly great game BW made was ME2.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 13 mai 2013 - 05:02 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Criticism and hate are two different things. One assigns an emotion like hate to an opinion in an attempt to invalidate it.

And when one engages in hyperbole in order to make a point, one is engaging in emotional injection in their criticism, thus it is hate.

The boards engage and a lot of hyperbole, all the time, in constant, rapid burst.