114 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Fiddles dee dee wrote...

No one hates BGII...NO ONE!!!!

If it's available to the public at large, somebody somewhere hates it.

[Ninja Stan]

Some off-topic discussion removed.

[Dave of Canada]

I'll just deal with "pre-ea" as being "pre-me2", as that's when things got bad.

Neverwinter was often touted as the disaster, KOTOR was hated for being mmo-lite (something which still exists regarding DA:O's combat), DA:O had fandom wars between BG1/2 fans claiming it was an ARPG, Sonic Chronicles was considered the beginning of the end, Mass Effect was bashed for going away from controlling the entire party.

[mickey111]

dreamgazer wrote...

Fiddles dee dee wrote...

No one hates BGII...NO ONE!!!!

If it's available to the public at large, somebody somewhere hates it.

Hey, try something for me... replay BGII, but this time play it with the sword coast strategems mod installed with the smarter mages and pre-battle buffs enabled. Have fun trying to figure out wtf is going on with the 5 areas of effect and dozens of different aura and time limited status effects. BGII with SCSII is the thing that drove me to seek out good turn based games like xcom and kings bounty where these complex and large scale fights play out in an orderly fashion. I have sworn off real time with pause ever since then.

Modifié par mickey111, 14 mai 2013 - 11:09 .

[Urgon]

mickey111 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Fiddles dee dee wrote...

No one hates BGII...NO ONE!!!!

If it's available to the public at large, somebody somewhere hates it.

Hey, try something for me... replay BGII, but this time play it with the sword coast strategems mod installed with the smarter mages and pre-battle buffs enabled. Have fun trying to figure out wtf is going on with the 5 areas of effect and dozens of different aura and time limited status effects. BGII with SCSII is the thing that drove me to seek out good turn based games like xcom and kings bounty where these complex and large scale fights play out in an orderly fashion. I have sworn off real time with pause ever since then.

Nope. BG2 with SCSII has my favorite gameplay to date.
I should like turn based more in theory, as i like TB and i loath realtime without pause, but i had more fun with IE combat than with X-com, ToEE, Jagged Alliance 2 etc. The fact is that RTwP games had better encounter design than their TB counterparts, and they don't require twitch gameplay like real time (at least for me)

Modifié par Urgon, 14 mai 2013 - 11:49 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I was hardly active on Internet between 2001-2009. I didn't know communities like BSN exist at all!
But I assume that NWN vanilla should have disappointed and enraged the BG fans. Jade Empire could possibly do that too. Sonic 2006 must have had forum rebellions for sure!

[mickey111]

Urgon wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Fiddles dee dee wrote...

No one hates BGII...NO ONE!!!!

If it's available to the public at large, somebody somewhere hates it.

Hey, try something for me... replay BGII, but this time play it with the sword coast strategems mod installed with the smarter mages and pre-battle buffs enabled. Have fun trying to figure out wtf is going on with the 5 areas of effect and dozens of different aura and time limited status effects. BGII with SCSII is the thing that drove me to seek out good turn based games like xcom and kings bounty where these complex and large scale fights play out in an orderly fashion. I have sworn off real time with pause ever since then.

Nope. BG2 with SCSII has my favorite gameplay to date.
I should like turn based more in theory, as i like TB and i loath realtime without pause, but i had more fun with IE combat than with X-com, ToEE, Jagged Alliance 2 etc. The fact is that RTwP games had better encounter design than their TB counterparts, and they don't require twitch gameplay like real time (at least for me)

So how was it for you? Did you have to spend 5-10 minutes just mucking around with group positioning and combat buffs for each battle? Because SCS is difficult enough that it's quite neccessary to keep an eye on the little swinging pendulum as it counts the seconds, and to keep track of those seconds is as unweildy as sin. Alternatively, I could have lowered the difficulty down from insanity, I installed SCS to enhance difficulty so where would be the fun in lowering it. Vanilla BGII tends to have a much larger margin for error in the tactical sense, so the rtwp doesn't make the gameplay grind to a crawl so often.

Modifié par mickey111, 14 mai 2013 - 01:01 .

[Urgon]

mickey111 wrote...

Urgon wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Fiddles dee dee wrote...

No one hates BGII...NO ONE!!!!

If it's available to the public at large, somebody somewhere hates it.

Hey, try something for me... replay BGII, but this time play it with the sword coast strategems mod installed with the smarter mages and pre-battle buffs enabled. Have fun trying to figure out wtf is going on with the 5 areas of effect and dozens of different aura and time limited status effects. BGII with SCSII is the thing that drove me to seek out good turn based games like xcom and kings bounty where these complex and large scale fights play out in an orderly fashion. I have sworn off real time with pause ever since then.

Nope. BG2 with SCSII has my favorite gameplay to date.
I should like turn based more in theory, as i like TB and i loath realtime without pause, but i had more fun with IE combat than with X-com, ToEE, Jagged Alliance 2 etc. The fact is that RTwP games had better encounter design than their TB counterparts, and they don't require twitch gameplay like real time (at least for me)

So how was it for you? Did you have to spend 5-10 minutes just mucking around with group positioning and combat buffs for each battle? Because SCS is difficult enough that it's quite neccessary to keep an eye on the little swinging pendulum as it counts the seconds, and to keep track of those seconds is as unweildy as sin. Alternatively, I could have lowered the difficulty down from insanity, I installed SCS to enhance difficulty so where would be the fun in lowering it. Vanilla BGII tends to have a much larger margin for error in the tactical sense, so the rtwp doesn't make the gameplay grind to a crawl so often.

Not every encounter though. I agree that some encounters were pain in the ass. Firkraag, Irenicus in Hell, liches, bandit camp in BG1(that propably because i went underleveled) But those encounters are rare enough that the game doesn't became a chore, and once in a while it's fun to micromanage everything. Would it be easyer and clearer in TB mode? Yes. But keep in mind that SCS is a mod. It's not balanced and more importantly, the game wasn't designed with this mod in mind.
That's my main point. Usually turn based is better for deep mechanics and overly tactical gameplay that you need to count turns. Noone can disagree with that. But  TB games more often than not have **** encounter design compaired to RTwP games. I don't know why it is but it happens. IE games weren't the most tactical games around,  but i had more fun with their combat than other more tactical games.
Personally, i didn't like BG2 combat for the tactical feel overall but for the mage duels. I loved those and no other game offered me something similar. And SCS enchasses those duels.

[CronoDragoon]

spirosz wrote...

I disagree Stan, I truly believe that ME3 needed another 6 months to a year.

Possible, but I think Stan's point is that this demonstrates a failure of planning on BioWare's part, if anything.

Additionally, on a somewhat separate point, it amazes me that people think the content of ME3's ending is EA's fault, as if the Starchild and Destroy/Control/Synthesis were products of time constraints and not BioWare's vision of the ending from the onset of ME3 planning. It would have been far easier and cheaper to just do what some fans did and cut the Starchild out, shifting right to the Crucible firing after the Anderson talk.

[CronoDragoon]

dreamgazer wrote...

Look, I think the writing in ME3 dipped in quality as well (I think I finally landed on a 70 out of 100 the last time I thought it over), but there's nothing black and white about this whole situation.

Indeed. Even within the question of writing we'd need to separate our points into different aspects of the writing. How was the plotting? The character arcs? The dialogue itself? How well was the dialogue incorporated into the wheel, and how well did the game manage your choices? These are all questions I have to ask when analyzing writing, and how I prioritize their importance to my enjoyment of the story constitutes my definitive statement on the writing.

This is a bit harsh, but I go into BioWare games expecting stupid and/or cliche plots, but also expecting superb character writing, enjoyable character arcs and funny dialogue. Since my expectations are calibrated accordingly, I will say that for the vast majority of ME3 I felt the writing was noticeably better than ME1, and slightly better than ME2. Others who enjoy the backstory of the ME universe and memorize the codex probably have a lesser opinion of ME3's writing, which is fine.

[Volus Warlord]

simfamSP wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Don't forget ME3 was already delayed by six months.

And thank god for that! Imagine what we would've gotten if that were not the case

That's actually a very scary thought. 

[Seboist]

I doubt more dev time would have improved ME3's story and handling of choices. DA: Awakening was rushed and it had a better story than Origins and you have New Vegas which was developed in 18 months and had far better choices than ME1-3 put together.

The only thing that would have improved is the polishing and perhaps some side quests with actual content instead of pac man planet scanning.

[Ninja Stan]

Volus Warlord wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Don't forget ME3 was already delayed by six months.

And thank god for that! Imagine what we would've gotten if that were not the case

That's actually a very scary thought. 

Not really. You would have gotten a slightly different game that may or may not have been received exactly the same way. I mean, you can imagine that extra time always translates to better quality, but if the game had not been delayed, some things may not have made the cut. Whether the "some things" are story-based or merely cosmetic, such as non-critical dialogues and other "flavour," can not be known.

Any game with (dev time minus 6 months) will necessarily be different. But just how different, is something that no one but the devs can answer with any certainty.

[fchopin]

The question should be did hate exist before mankind existed.