235 réponses à ce sujet

[TransientNomad]

Ukki wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...
 Voice acting can add some emotional impact to scenes...

The problem I have with this is that the emotion shown is many times not the emotion I feel. Thus the character doesn´t feel like mine.

While I hear what you are saying, I shudder to remember the completely blank, derp face of my Warden character he/she had in nearly every emotional scene in Dragon Age Origins.  The Warden really only had a few emotions; confused, slightly irritated, and neutral.  

[The Elder King]

apascone wrote...




thats why I said a general rule I knew someone was going to bring up origins. But I'm talking about RPGs too. And sure it boosts sales it doesn't hurt them because if it did then video game companies wouldn't have voiced pc. Of course I have no proof other then the rules of business. 

My first example was Skyrim, not DAO, which you ignored.
I never said voiced PC hurt sales. I said that they don't (necessarily) boost them. They are two different things.
And I was strictly talking about rpg, not games in general. You are assuming tat the reason that lead Bioware to switch from silent PC to voiced PC was increasing sales, which you have no proof about. There were successful rpgs in the past years that have silent PC (not only DAO) so the feature isn't necessarily inferior to the voiced PC feature.
I'm not saying that silent PC are better than voiced PC (If a game has a voiced PC and a well done dialogue system, I don't have problem with roleplaying). I'm saying that neither system is better than the other in rpg in term of sales.

[AmRMa]

Dragon Age Origins was more of an introduction game into the world of Thedas, so they showed different races and origins so players got a better idea of the world so they kept the story telling broad and non-voiced protagonists. I prefer voices in my protagonist and with so many other characters it would be very difficult to voice all the options in conversation along with the different characters. So I understand why they just want human it keeps production down and allows for more voiced dialogue options. Also don't mind playing human besides the female city elf didn't finish many of the non-human character playthroughs.

[AmRMa]

TransientNomad wrote...

Ukki wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...
 Voice acting can add some emotional impact to scenes...

The problem I have with this is that the emotion shown is many times not the emotion I feel. Thus the character doesn´t feel like mine.

While I hear what you are saying, I shudder to remember the completely blank, derp face of my Warden character he/she had in nearly every emotional scene in Dragon Age Origins.  The Warden really only had a few emotions; confused, slightly irritated, and neutral.  

Yes, exactly. For me immersion was easier in DA2 and when Hawke
**** spoiler for DA2 ****





lost his/her mother I honestly felt depressed and Hawke reflected that.

Modifié par AmRMa, 13 mai 2013 - 04:33 .

[Sanunes]

Sharn wrote...

After how Origins allowed you to pick a name, race,  and origin story for your character with dialogue options that weren't just either nice, sassy, or mean we're suddenly back to DA2 or Mass Effect. Why are we forced to play as a voiced human who mostly likely has their own preset name and back story when we had so many options in Origins? Who could possibly prefer that over being able to create their own hero instead of someone else's? 

It just doesn't make sense and greatly restricts the role playing in a game that is supposedly an RPG. Having a voiced character also means there are less dialogue options which origins had so many of. 

This was one of my main peeves with Mass Effect, shepherd was just so boring and lifeless.

I don't understand how The Warden is our character, the voice is nothing more then a grunt, the name never mattered for you are only called The Warden or Warden, the origin was a tutorial and meant nothing after the first hour.  Yes not having a race selection is a bit of a letdown, but I rather have characters that look different then simply a different head on a taller/shorter/stockier body.

I have a problem with a non-voiced protagionist for when I tell someone a line that is in the game and they don't deliver how I intented and someone gets upset when I meant it in a nice way, so thats not much different then the problem you have with a voiced character for it still means the dialogue we selected isn't the way we imagined it would be delivered.

[mopotter]

StreetMagic wrote...

I suggest making a "Real RPG" then, if you have an idea of it. I'd love to see it.

So far, I'm happy with Bioware out of most companies. They're not perfect, but somehow get me immersed more than many RPGs out there. I can't complain too much. It's a good bit of fun. I don't think I could do a better job, given the medium. Even if I had oodles of cash to waste.

As much as ME3 irritated me, this is my view too.  It's how BioWare started, they made games they wanted to play.  If someone wants the "perfect" game for themselves, they should make it.   Who knows they may be very successful.   

I know I'm not going to make any games so I play games that give me as many of the things I like as possible.  BioWare has always been my first choice, Bethesda (FA and Elder Scrolls) my 2nd.  And while for the first time, I'm not pre-ordering DA3, I'll pick it up as soon as I hear from people I trust, what it's like and that BW hasn't changed their direction in games.

[Cainhurst Crow]

AlanC9 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Because making real (what I would regard as 'real') RPGs is too much work apparently. That's my take.

-Polaris

Of course, BG1 had a protagonist with a background every bit as set as Hawke's, and more set than Shepard's. You could play as a non-human, but you couldn't play as a character who was raised anywhere but in Candlekeep. By Gorion. With Imoen hanging around.

And don't forget, many bioware fans decry'd origins as a betrayl to everything they stood for, and that they had fully sold out the pen and paper rpg formula and dumbed everything down too much. Also they complained about the selectable backgrounds as the death of traditional roleplaying because it watered down the story.

Now, I think those people are insane, but I have to admit that I am seeing a similar occurance happening now that I did than. Is this complaint as valid as the fans who decry'd the death of bioware and baulder's gate when origins came out? Maybe, the similarities are present, but I will leave it to others to decide.

[Cainhurst Crow]

In dragon age origins, no matter what you picked, everyone pretty much had the exact same reaction to you. You still got treated the same, whether you were a dwarf, a human, an elf, or a mage, nothing truely impactful happened in the story relating to this outside of a single, isolated change that didn't really help anything in the long run. You would always be "the warden", you have no name, warden is you name. You could pick "Buttplug Molester" Cousland or "Skyloving Duster Humper" Aeducan as your name and no one would react at all. Either you were the warden, you were your last name if the isolated instance of reference came up, or you were no one but joe smoe with a weapon looking for a quest. The origin stories I did like, but I felt they offered no real difference at all, unless you picked three out of the 6 origins, and only for a single mission. IF you picked the noble, you could rule the humans. If you picked the dwarf noble, you could sit on the dwarf throne. If you picked the mage, you could go into the fade and fight conner's demon yourself, that's it. That is the great impact that the origins had on the plot, wow, how riviting.

There was as much impact to how DA2 approached their protaganist, as origins had with how they approached their protaganist. What you picked in the character creation affect the exact same amount, minus the immersion of having your character not be a silent robot amongst your interesting companions.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 mai 2013 - 05:21 .

[AlanC9]

windzero wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

DA Origins was nice but was hardly the norm for RPG's or even good rpgs.

perhaps you could enlighten me, what is the norm for RPGs or even a good RPGs?

Either no background at all or a single specific background for all PCs. Both options have been used in good RPGs; I'd say that the average quality of fixed-background games is higher, but that's because I don't think the TES games are very good.

[Cainhurst Crow]

AlanC9 wrote...

windzero wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

DA Origins was nice but was hardly the norm for RPG's or even good rpgs.

perhaps you could enlighten me, what is the norm for RPGs or even a good RPGs?

Either no background at all or a single specific background for all PCs. Both options have been used in good RPGs; I'd say that the average quality of fixed-background games is higher, but that's because I don't think the TES games are very good.

I haven't played a lot of rpg's, but kotor had this same thing. You wake up on a ship, it's going down, you have to fight the sith forces and escape, you find your first companions and get an introduction to combat and basic systems, and than you get dropped off to sealed plot area number 1 before you are allowed to go where you want to go.

[freche]

Enigmatick wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Two reasons:

1) Because the story warrants it. The setting of Dragon Age is full of bigotry and it's not feasible that an elf or dwarf would be able to do and have all the things that a human character can do and have. Some barriers are just insumountable. Until something occurs within the setting to facilitate a change in the way society operates, an elf or dwarf hero may not be feasible for the narrative Bioware wants to tell.

How is not a bad thing that a story in a RPG disallows flexibility for races

So you rather have BW just take an axe to the lore they have created for Dragon Age?

The lore in DA puts Dwarves as 2nd rate citizens and Elves even worse then that, something I think is played out too little in the games.
In DAO (which is highly overated on this forum) that was not a big issue since by getting recruited into the Grey Wardens you where given a title that carried weight (though I think more people should have been like that Templar on the boat bridge, too few people questions if you are telling the truth).

The story for DA2 wouldn't really work for either a Dwarf or Elf (personally the way the story was handled in DA2 I don't think it even fits to be allowed playing a Mage).
I have no idea what the story for DA:I will really be, but considering the title one can do some guessing and a Dwarf or Elf wouldn't fit as the main character.

Isn't it better that the focus is on the story and if it turns out a human is the only suitable option, so be it.
I'm sure that if a story would allow a different race to fit good enough it will be allowed. But in a world like DA where non-humans have such a hard time being taken seriously or given a chance that makes it much harder to do a story that fits them all.

[AlanC9]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
I haven't played a lot of rpg's, but kotor had this same thing. You wake up on a ship, it's going down, you have to fight the sith forces and escape, you find your first companions and get an introduction to combat and basic systems, and than you get dropped off to sealed plot area number 1 before you are allowed to go where you want to go.

Well, KotOR's a little special concerning the PCs background.. But I suppose we shouldn't spoil the big twist; anyone who's played it knows about the issue.

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
I haven't played a lot of rpg's, but kotor had this same thing. You wake up on a ship, it's going down, you have to fight the sith forces and escape, you find your first companions and get an introduction to combat and basic systems, and than you get dropped off to sealed plot area number 1 before you are allowed to go where you want to go.

Well, KotOR's a little special concerning the PCs background.. But I suppose we shouldn't spoil the big twist; anyone who's played it knows about the issue.

KotOR rules.

[schalafi]

Sweawm wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The downside of not having a more focused personality is that heroes end up as the stereotypical mute Cowboy mysteriously appearing/saving the day/and riding off into the sunset. It's a trope I have nothing but hatred for. And happens far too often in CRPGs. Bioware is a little less guilty about it, but it happened to the Warden as well. It happens to every Elder Scrolls character especially.

For all of the various origins in DAO, "many options" virtually turns out to be fewer options. The different plot points become so hard to manage that the character never gets any sense of closure. He/she rides off into the sunset, probably never to be seen again. And further stories can never address the subject except in an offhand way. "Oh yeah, there was once this badass who changed our lives.. but... umm.. we don't know where he is. Or she. I don't remember their gender. In fact, I don't even remember their name. Oh well."

Now this is an agreeable opinion. I myself, enjoyed Dragon Age II's having actual main character. I feel Origins could have been the greatest freaking RPG ever if it had a voiced PC's in the conversation and not just combat lines. The

only thing I dislike about Origins is the silent, seemingly one-way conversations the Warden has.

I'm honestly a supporter of Bioware taking a more focused route that will allow them to tell greater stories with better characters, over catering to the hard core self-insertive Role Players (who honestly, will rarely ever be pleased with anything Bioware do). I feel DA2 was a step in the right direction, and I hope Bioware go further with that in DA3:I 

I agree, I really don't want to go back to BG type games, I like the conversation wheel, the character creator, and the way DA2 told about Hawke's. and all the npc's individual stories. Yes, I even liked the ending, because it left the door open for possible appearances in subsequent games.

Modifié par schalafi, 13 mai 2013 - 05:48 .

[Fiery Knight]

It is subjective, but I feel more connected and emotionaly attached to the PC, the companions and the world with a voiced protagonist. With non-voiced, nada. And non voiced characters don't really tend to be that developed, some none at all and are just a blank state (aka the Dragorborn). Only good non-voiced protagonist I've played as is the Nameless One.

[ArcaneJTM]

Knight of Dane wrote...

The reason why a set human protagonaist is chosen is because it is easier to work into the world, they can sort of make more quality on that one instead of a quantity of choices.

"Hawke was adopted."

Problem solved. 

[LolaLei]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I'm always kind of torn on this. Hawke felt like he/she was more a 'part' of the universe...but in the process he/she wasn't my character, unlike the Warden.

I prefer DA:O's approach, but the ME/DA2 one has its benefits, I think. Voice acting can add some emotional impact to scenes...but then sometimes I feel like I have to make the character around that voice, too. And I can't just imagine what my character sounds like, and I've always liked doing that.

Really don't like the whole human thing though.

Yeah, I'm also torn on this kind of thing. On the one hand, having a voiceless protagonist etc meant we could create how we imagined our protagonist to sound etc. But on the other hand it kinda annoyed me how emotionless and unexpressive he/she was during most scenes because he/she didn't have a voice, thus very little expressive facial animations or reactions to the things going on around him/her.

But with Hawke, I loved how he/she was able to fully interact with, and react to, everyone and everything around him/her. However, it did make him/her feel like a separate character of his/her own rather than one we've created ourselves. I think maybe the fact that Hawke's personality went one of three ways probably didn't help since he/she is always going to be either diplomatic, sarcastic, or aggressive.

[Uccio]

AmRMa wrote...

TransientNomad wrote...

Ukki wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...
 Voice acting can add some emotional impact to scenes...

The problem I have with this is that the emotion shown is many times not the emotion I feel. Thus the character doesn´t feel like mine.

While I hear what you are saying, I shudder to remember the completely blank, derp face of my Warden character he/she had in nearly every emotional scene in Dragon Age Origins.  The Warden really only had a few emotions; confused, slightly irritated, and neutral.  

Yes, exactly. For me immersion was easier in DA2 and when Hawke
**** spoiler for DA2 ****





lost his/her mother I honestly felt depressed and Hawke reflected that.

But again he didn´t act like I would have. For me he was actually waaaaay too mellow when he just found out that her mom had been butchered and sawn into a zombie doll. 

[apascone]

hhh89 

My first example was Skyrim, not DAO, which you ignored.
I never said voiced PC hurt sales. I said that they don't (necessarily) boost them. They are two different things.
And I was strictly talking about rpg, not games in general. You are assuming tat the reason that lead Bioware to switch from silent PC to voiced PC was increasing sales, which you have no proof about. There were successful rpgs in the past years that have silent PC (not only DAO) so the feature isn't necessarily inferior to the voiced PC feature.
I'm not saying that silent PC are better than voiced PC (If a game has a voiced PC and a well done dialogue system, I don't have problem with roleplaying). I'm saying that neither system is better than the other in rpg in term of sales.

I didn't ignore your example of skyrim you said it sold over 10,000 games. It just was not relevant to what I needed to say. I was saying I fell DAO is the exception. You said previously they don't boost sales if you meant necessarily and didnt put it or I just miss read it I'm not sure. I don't think I said it boosted sales but I know I did say I feel like having a voiced pc would be easier to sell to a wider fan base (that is my opinion of course) 
I am curious to how far back are you talking about successful none voice pc because in recent memory I can only think of DAO. But honestly that is what got me into rpg before that I mostly played sports games. 
MY also said I had no proff about which sells more. But i did say if the gameing industries felt like a voiced pc hurt their rpg they would t have one

[Palidane]

ArcaneJTM wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

The reason why a set human protagonaist is chosen is because it is easier to work into the world, they can sort of make more quality on that one instead of a quantity of choices.

"Hawke was adopted."

Problem solved. 

How does that solve anything? Your still either an elf or a dwarf, which means you get no respect. You would basically be stuck in Act 1, but worse, forever.

[IanPolaris]

Palidane wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

The reason why a set human protagonaist is chosen is because it is easier to work into the world, they can sort of make more quality on that one instead of a quantity of choices.

"Hawke was adopted."

Problem solved. 

How does that solve anything? Your still either an elf or a dwarf, which means you get no respect. You would basically be stuck in Act 1, but worse, forever.

Maybe for an elf but I dispute that for a dwarf.  We see a lot of Dwarves in the Merchant's Guild in High Town along with Dwarven VIPs.  The only reason that Varric doesn't live in Hightown is because he doesn't want to.  His brother had no issues being a VIP complete with Mansion in Hightown.

-POlaris

Edit PS:  Honestly there are more plot difficulties with Hawke being a mage in DA2 than being a dwarf. 

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 mai 2013 - 06:50 .

[Tinu]

IanPolaris wrote...


Maybe for an elf but I dispute that for a dwarf.  We see a lot of Dwarves in the Merchant's Guild in High Town along with Dwarven VIPs.  The only reason that Varric doesn't live in Hightown is because he doesn't want to.  His brother had no issues being a VIP complete with Mansion in Hightown.

-POlaris

Edit PS:  Honestly there are more plot difficulties with Hawke being a mage in DA2 than being a dwarf. 

I doubt Kirkwall would be ready for a dwarven vicount. 

[ArcaneJTM]

TinuHawke wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


Maybe for an elf but I dispute that for a dwarf.  We see a lot of Dwarves in the Merchant's Guild in High Town along with Dwarven VIPs.  The only reason that Varric doesn't live in Hightown is because he doesn't want to.  His brother had no issues being a VIP complete with Mansion in Hightown.

-POlaris

Edit PS:  Honestly there are more plot difficulties with Hawke being a mage in DA2 than being a dwarf. 

I doubt Kirkwall would be ready for a dwarven vicount. 

I don't think they'd care if you were a dwarf (or an elf for that matter) after that qunari incident that led to you becoming the champion.  The main story wouldn't have to change hardly at all really.  NPCs might have a different attitude toward you generally, but frankly I call bull**** on the idea that in order to have a good story you have to put such limits on the PC or go with a silent protagonist.  IMO, that just displays a severe lack of imagination and lazy storytelling.

Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 13 mai 2013 - 07:08 .

[Hadeedak]

Hell, even in DAO, we had some hiccups with the cinematics featuring the bottom of Alistair's chin and the top of the Warden's head as a female dwarf.... With more complex cinematics and scenery, as games seem to have, that'd probably only get worse.

Not that seeing Diac's eyebrows raised and a faint frown on Alistair's mouth in response to a dramatic revelation wasn't hilarious. But it wasn't ideal. I do miss being a dwarf, though.