235 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Why do you make it a point to point out that the silent protaginst is goofy is my opinion? Do you know how forums work? 99.9% of everything on here is opinion!

I do love being enlightened on the protocol of forums. Otherwise, I may have continued my entire life without realizing stating opinions as fact was conducive to intelligent discussion.

I am well aware its not the view of others, which is why I think the open source VO would work, when the NPC talk they don't really display any emotion as it is, and the lip synching is incredibly poor, so I don't think it would bother most people. Besides, with all the developments in visual sensor, it is becoming easier to map facial expressions into games. I don't think this is as far fetched as you think it is.

Brian Fargo has stated on several occasions that the voice work is one of the hardest things to do in RPGs because you have to set things in stone way earlier, and makes the story more rigid (indeed, you can see it by only have a voice protagnist for one race) Open sourcing it would be a way to please both crowds, and if you are truely terrified of what it might produce, then guess what? You don't have to download any VO.

And nothing would be helped if I did. Lip synching work would still be involved, animation would still be required, cinematic designers would need to place actors in certain places at certain times... all the while it still shows my character acting out these lines, including expressions, movement, idiosyncrasies and mannerisms that are also part of the problem with a voice PC, aside from the actual voice. Open source, as an idea, fixes only one of the dozens of problems with having a voiced protagonist. VA's aren't that expensive, so it isn't even fixing the biggest proem and obstacle.

All of the work to have the voiced PC would still be there. All the demands on the schedule, development and design would still be there. If anything, there would be MORE work, as the developers would have to have multiple lip synching options to handle different paces of different voices or have the have the coding hooks and structure to put in various dialogue lines into the game.

[AlanC9]

ArcaneJTM wrote...

So its OK for you to demand gay people be included, but it's not OK for anyone to demand non-humans?

That doesn't seem just a little hypocritical to you?

These aren't really the same issue. Some of us are gay. None of us are elves.

[ArcaneJTM]

AlanC9 wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...

So its OK for you to demand gay people be included, but it's not OK for anyone to demand non-humans?

That doesn't seem just a little hypocritical to you?

These aren't really the same issue. Some of us are gay. None of us are elves.

Says you. 

[Plaintiff]

[quote]ArcaneJTM wrote...
So its OK for you to demand gay people be included, but it's not OK for anyone to demand non-humans?

That doesn't seem just a little hypocritical to you?[/quote]
It would seem hypocritical, if that was my argument.

[quote]
Uh, yeah, you kinda did.  "mostly relating to the representation of real-life minorities"  "Elves and Dwarves are not real minorities,"[/quote]
And you got "all games should perfectly match reality" from that... how, exactly?

[quote]No, I don't see a problem with it.  Dragons have been a part of fantasy stories throughout history.  Gay people, not so much.[/quote]
So if bigotry has been around for a long time, it becomes okay? Got it.

"Gay people have been excluded from fantasy adventures all through history, so it's totally okay to keep doing it! Straight men and the things that straight men want to do are all that matters!"

[quote]Really I think people are more concerned with the fire breathing lizard turning the village to ash than whether the dragon slayer prefers beards or boobs.[/quote]
Argument ad absurdium. Boy, you are on a roll.

[quote]Part of that whole idea of saving the world from evil instead of playing a dating sim.[/quote]
Because homosexuals don't want to fight dragons. Those godless perverts just want to have sex with everything. How do they even hold swords, with their limp little wrists?

[quote]You know, since your overall assersion is that variety takes away from narative,[/quote]
No it isn't. I don't know what posts you're reading, but I didn't write them.

[quote]perhaps homosexuality should be removed from the game entirely?  Much better if the protagonist has a set love intrest that is whoever was the most popular among focus groups.  That way the devs can focus on making that one relationship the best it can be than providing a choice for people to romance who they want.

Makes sense, doesn't it?[/quote]
You know, this is my fault for using the word "cohesive". I should've known you had no idea what it means.

[quote]It doesn't have to be a choice between one or the other.[/quote]
I never said it had to be.

[quote]You've been making a mountain out of a molehill because you hate elves so much that you don't even want them to be an option.  That's what I take issue with.[/quote]
As opposed to you who's been making my arguments up for me out of thin air? You don't actually understand what I've been saying at all! I'd say you're attacking strawmen, but you're so wide of the mark that you didn't even hit the strawman. You're flailing around in empty space, repeatedly missing the proverbial pinata that was my point.


[quote]Since you mention it, it is more important, but that's beside the point.[/quote]
"I'm a giant bigot, but that's beside the point"

[quote]You are way too obsessed with being politically correct and hating anything that doesn't fit your ideal character.[/quote]
Pfft. Because having a basic modicum of respect for other groups is such a terrible thing.

Yeah, I hate elves. I hate the entire concept. They're a tired trope and I want them to leave the fantasy genre forever and for writers to start being actually original instead of hobbling along on the crutches Tolkien crafted for them.

But you know what? I never said people shouldn't be allowed to play them. At no point ever did I say any such thing. Ever. This is an argument that you concocted in a fever dream. Although, having just discovered that you're a bigot, I don't think that you personally deserve to have anything you enjoy.

[quote]What about people who can relate more to dwarves than human characters?[/quote]
I imagine they have a lot of trouble making friends.

[quote]What about short people or tall people?  What about fat people, or skinny men, or muscular women that don't have D cup boobs?[/quote]
What about them? Bioware should accomodate more body types? I'm inclined to agree, but it's not always doable. The different body types of the elves and dwarves were probably part of the problem relating to their inclusion.

[quote]There are more ways to relate to a character than gender and sexuality.[/quote]
You managed to say something true. Congratulations.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mai 2013 - 07:59 .

[Il Divo]

Bleachrude wrote...

DA:O got around this by simply having "The grey Warden" overwrite any societal effects. Would a random human noble adventurer be able to even get a meeting with Zatharian?  Would the Shaperate even allow a city elf into its archives or even Orzammar? Would a casteless dwarf even be allowed into the circle tower?

The problem I always had with this was that there doesn't seem to be an identifying characteristic as to what constitutes a Grey Warden (in DA:O, we didn't see a required uniform, as I recall). Unlike Jedi who could be identified by their Force powers/lightsabers, what's stopping any anyone from claiming himself as a Grey Warden?

[Shaigunjoe]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I do love being enlightened on the protocol of forums. Otherwise, I may have continued my entire life without realizing stating opinions as fact was conducive to intelligent discussion.

Well, no need to be upset about it, so are you going to answer my question or do you not understand the difference between opinions and facts?

And nothing would be helped if I did. Lip synching work would still be involved, animation would still be required, cinematic designers would need to place actors in certain places at certain times... all the while it still shows my character acting out these lines, including expressions, movement, idiosyncrasies and mannerisms that are also part of the problem with a voice PC, aside from the actual voice.

So why would it still show a voiceless character going through the motions of talking?  Explain to me what technical limitations prevent this from being cut as well if there is no VO?  All of the things you say need to be inplace can actually be handed by the modders already, with the exception on VO.

Open source, as an idea, fixes only one of the dozens of problems with having a voiced protagonist. VA's aren't that expensive, so it isn't even fixing the biggest proem and obstacle.

So what is the biggest problem?  I'd say its having VA's come in, record, and leave, and if you want to change the story, you have to pay to bring them back in, and thats only if there are not scheduling conflicts, if they are conflicts, then you may not get to make the changes you want.  Also, as far as the cost is concerned, this is where facts are important, could you please link how much the VA cost in some of these games?  You do understand that is proportional to the talent used, don' t you?

[Fast Jimmy]

^
I do understand the difference between opinion and fact, yes. Again, thank you for enlightening me.

If the actions tied with the voice can be cut out, that works for the role-playing concerns. But it does nothing for the budget and time constraints.

You say "you want to add more dialogue, pay to bring them in," but it is not that simple. Say you want to change something for a scene after the fact, where you want your character to react or have an option that wasn't there before. For a non-voiced protagonist, you could just pull up the text editor and whip out some new options. Easy piecey.

For a voiced protagonist, you need to call the VA back in. If that involves a foreign/overseas actor (which DA games often involve... given that the majority of characters in the DA world have British, French, Spanish or Italian accents) you need to coordinate with local recording studios to accommodate these sessions and have them sent to you upon completion. Not all THAT bad.

The average voice actor makes $47K a year, so the extra session will be a small fraction of that. Not a big cost. Source

But, then, you need to pull the other teams out of the work they are doing to implement it. This includes the animation teams I discussed, the cinematic teams, the writing teams to make sure the execution of the scene fits in with the narrative, not to mention the QA and design teams which make sure everything works and makes sense. What is a half-a-day event for a silent PC to make a change/add a reaction now becomes something that occurs over multiple weeks, involving multiple teams, requiring high levels of coordination and eating up schedule time.

Does a change become worth it then? Maybe a really huge, big one. But little ones that add flavor or give some depth in a situation that wasn't picked up on until the game was further along down the line in content generation? It now becomes a laborious, painstaking process to do this. Just like Brian Fargo said - it becomes a detriment to the development. It isn't a matter of paying the VA... it is the high level of integration with other departments other than the writing team (who, again, can just go in and edit/add lines in a text editor for a silent PC) that hampers game development.

I don't think your open-source idea is terrible, but it doesn't solve the problems of the voiced PC in terms of how it is bad for game development.

[ArcaneJTM]

You know, I don't think you even know what your argument is anymore, Plaintiff.  You're backpedaling so much now that it's a wonder you havn't regressed in age.

Now, I'm no psychiatrist, but it also seems like you've got some kind of persecution complex thing going on.  Might want to look into that.

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't have to be a choice between one or the other.

I never said it had to be.

Once again, yes, you did.  That's pretty much been at the core of what you've been saying in fact.

You've been making a mountain out of a molehill because you hate elves so much that you don't even want them to be an option.  That's what I take issue with.

As opposed to you who's been making my arguments up for me out of thin air? You don't actually understand what I've been saying at all! I'd say you're attacking strawmen, but you're so wide of the mark that you didn't even hit the strawman. You're flailing around in empty space, repeatedly missing the proverbial pinata that was my point.

Uh, huh.  You're the one whos been ranting about how people that want racial options included only care about having elves and dwarves and screw everyone else when absolutely nobody here has said anything of the kind.

Since you mention it, it is more important, but that's beside the point.

"I'm a giant bigot, but that's beside the point"

It's more important because story and content are more important to creating a fantasy world than scoring political points.

You are way too obsessed with being politically correct and hating anything that doesn't fit your ideal character.

Pfft. Because having a basic modicum of respect for other groups is such a terrible thing.

Yeah, I hate elves. I hate the entire concept. They're a tired trope and I want them to leave the fantasy genre forever and for writers to start being actually original instead of hobbling along on the crutches Tolkien crafted for them.

Congratulations.  You just contradicted yourself in the same breath.

But you know what? I never said people shouldn't be allowed to play them. At no point ever did I say any such thing. Ever. This is an argument that you concocted in a fever dream. Although, having just discovered that you're a bigot, I don't think that you personally deserve to have anything you enjoy.

What about them? Bioware should accomodate more body types? I'm inclined to agree, but it's not always doable. The different body types of the elves and dwarves were probably part of the problem relating to their inclusion.

And once again you blame alternate races for features you think are lacking.  Maybe it was accomidating homosexual relationships that did it?  Maybe it was having different hair styles?  Maybe it was having more than one kind of darkspawn?  Or maybe none of these had anything to do with it and it was something else entirely.

But no, you don't even consider that posibility.  It's all how elves and dwarves are everywhere in fantasy with you and how they are destroying everything around them.

And you have the gall to call me a bigot.  <_<

Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 15 mai 2013 - 09:25 .

[Bleachrude]

Il Divo wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

DA:O got around this by simply having "The grey Warden" overwrite any societal effects. Would a random human noble adventurer be able to even get a meeting with Zatharian?  Would the Shaperate even allow a city elf into its archives or even Orzammar? Would a casteless dwarf even be allowed into the circle tower?

The problem I always had with this was that there doesn't seem to be an identifying characteristic as to what constitutes a Grey Warden (in DA:O, we didn't see a required uniform, as I recall). Unlike Jedi who could be identified by their Force powers/lightsabers, what's stopping any anyone from claiming himself as a Grey Warden?

That's true.

I always thought they eyes in this trailer with the warden indicated that ALL wardens could do this and was something unique to them...the sacred ashes trailer has it as well...

Colour me surprised that in the actual game only one person ever actually challenges you about being a warden and it's treated more as a joke yet there's no defining" physical effect...definitely something of an immersion breaker for me. This applies to classes in Thedas as well  (and partly why my canon Hawke isn't a mage even though I personally find Carver more interesting than Bethany)..it's very weird how pretty much a mage Hawke is blithlely walking around especially with how paranoid Meredith becomes in Act III

re: VO

I'm actually ok with a non-voiced protagonist...but the NPCs ALSO have to be silent...Either everyone talks or nobody does...the half and half approach always for me a kick to immersion...I know, sounds weird but I have no trouble with envisioning myself as the voiced protagonist (I have no problem as Shepard) and a silent one as long as EVERYONE is the same.

Like others, it just looks and feels weird to see everyone talking and your character just mutely standing there...

I imagine if  I ever played a game where it was ever reversed I'd find it too jarring as well...Has there ever been a game with a voiced main characters and silent companions/NPCs.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 15 mai 2013 - 09:40 .

[AlanC9]

ArcaneJTM wrote...


To that I would point out that those issues only become appearent if you play as those particular characters.  (elf, dwarf, mage, whatever)  Nobody is forcing you to do so.  So what's the harm in letting people play as those other characters if they want to, even if the only difference is an occasional comment from a random NPC?  How does knowing that some complete stranger on the other side of the world could potentially be playing one of these alternate choices completely ruin any chance you have of enjoying your own game experience?

If I'm reading Bleachrude right, the damage is to the integrity of the game-world itself, which hurts all of us. At least, all of us who actually care about such things.


And if the game world doesn't handle being nonhuman, all you're playing is a weird-looking human anyway.

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 mai 2013 - 10:01 .

[AlanC9]

ArcaneJTM wrote...

What about them? Bioware should accomodate more body types? I'm inclined to agree, but it's not always doable. The different body types of the elves and dwarves were probably part of the problem relating to their inclusion.

And once again you blame alternate races for features you think are lacking.  Maybe it was accomidating homosexual relationships that did it?  Maybe it was having different hair styles?  Maybe it was having more than one kind of darkspawn?  Or maybe none of these had anything to do with it and it was something else entirely.

But no, you don't even consider that posibility.  It's all how elves and dwarves are everywhere in fantasy with you and how they are destroying everything around them.

And you have the gall to call me a bigot.  <_<

Your reading comprehension seems to be taking a hit here; I guess Plaintiff pushed some of your buttons or something. You've got the causality backwards. The argument is that different body types for the PC are a resource sink (animations, etc.), and this factor makes including different racial types for the PC also be more costly.

And it is a resource sink. Back in the day I did some beta testing work on the old NWN Dreamcatcher series, and Adam had a hell of a time getting a kiss animation to work because of all the PC model variations.

Edit: that might have been a problem with the NWN2 Dark Waters mod. Same modder, different year.

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 mai 2013 - 10:04 .

[ArcaneJTM]

Bleachrude wrote...

re: VO

I'm actually ok with a non-voiced protagonist...but the NPCs ALSO have to be silent...Either everyone talks or nobody does...the half and half approach always for me a kick to immersion...I know, sounds weird but I have no trouble with envisioning myself as the voiced protagonist (I have no problem as Shepard) and a silent one as long as EVERYONE is the same.

Like others, it just looks and feels weird to see everyone talking and your character just mutely standing there...

I don't mind it too much, considering you read the line you're selecting as a response, so you kind of hear it in your head before hand anyway.  Still, I do prefer having a character that speaks if all else is equal.

I imagine if  I ever played a game where it was ever reversed I'd find it too jarring as well...Has there ever been a game with a voiced main characters and silent companions/NPCs.

I vaguely recall playing one like that, but I can't quite seem to put my finger on what it was.  If I remember, I'll post it.

[Bleachrude]

AlanC9 wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...


To that I would point out that those issues only become appearent if you play as those particular characters.  (elf, dwarf, mage, whatever)  Nobody is forcing you to do so.  So what's the harm in letting people play as those other characters if they want to, even if the only difference is an occasional comment from a random NPC? 

If I'm reading Bleachrude right, the damage is to the integrity of the game-world itself, which hurts all of us. At least, all of us who actually care about such things.


And if the game world doesn't handle being nonhuman, all you're playing is a weird-looking human anyway.

Which is pretty much want it is in the Gold Box/infinity Engine games. You played race X for the stats and that's it. None of the games does a elf (other than being barred from certain classes) actually affect the narrative in how you approach the story or how the world treats your character...

You accomplish the same thing with a point based character creation system ANYWAY so that's no longer an  issue.

[Paul E Dangerously]

While I do sigh and look longingly back at the days of games like BG1/2, the main reason you could get away with a silent protagonist is that at best, you saw a sprite and a static portrait. When you're actually up close to the character and seeing what should be their mouth moving and a voice coming out, seeing them stand there for thirty hours gaping all slack-jawed is just awkward. Even more so in what should be emotional moments.

That said, people vastly overrate the amount of unique racial/origin dialogue there was in DAO. Sure you had a questline or two open that someone else didn't, and you might get a "dwarf" or an "elf" thrown in occasionally, but it was pretty much 90% the same everyone else had.

[AlanC9]

Which arguably makes sense for an FR game, as you said upthread. The less PC race matters, the easier it is to implement.

[ArcaneJTM]

AlanC9 wrote...

Your reading comprehension seems to be taking a hit here; I guess Plaintiff pushed some of your buttons or something. You've got the causality backwards. The argument is that different body types for the PC are a resource sink (animations, etc.), and this factor makes including different racial types for the PC also be more costly.

And it is a resource sink. Back in the day I did some beta testing work on the old NWN Dreamcatcher series, and Adam had a hell of a time getting a kiss animation to work because of all the PC model variations.

Edit: that might have been a problem with the NWN2 Dark Waters mod. Same modder, different year.

No, I get the resource sink argument.  I just disagree with his application of it.  Hence the other possible resource sinks I mentioned.  You're falling into a common misconception that more focus on something equals more efficiency or faster development or something.  But no matter how much they try, nine women can't make a baby in one month.

Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 15 mai 2013 - 10:23 .

[ArcaneJTM]

AlanC9 wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...


To that I would point out that those issues only become appearent if you play as those particular characters.  (elf, dwarf, mage, whatever)  Nobody is forcing you to do so.  So what's the harm in letting people play as those other characters if they want to, even if the only difference is an occasional comment from a random NPC?  How does knowing that some complete stranger on the other side of the world could potentially be playing one of these alternate choices completely ruin any chance you have of enjoying your own game experience?

If I'm reading Bleachrude right, the damage is to the integrity of the game-world itself, which hurts all of us. At least, all of us who actually care about such things.


And if the game world doesn't handle being nonhuman, all you're playing is a weird-looking human anyway.

But again, how does that actually affect you?  How does Billy in South Dakota playing a "weird-looking human" in a single player game affect your game in any way, shape, or form?  It doesn't.  The only person who is going to encounter any of this integrity damage is Billy, so why not let him play how he wants to while you play how you want to?

Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 15 mai 2013 - 10:33 .

[Plaintiff]

ArcaneJTM wrote...
And once again you blame alternate races for features you think are lacking.  Maybe it was accomidating homosexual relationships that did it?  Maybe it was having different hair styles?  Maybe it was having more than one kind of darkspawn?  Or maybe none of these had anything to do with it and it was something else entirely.

No, genius, the different body types of elves and dwarves might have been a barrier to their inclusion as player characters because of technical limitations relating to the equipment system. Coincidentally, it would also explain why you can't make Hawke fat.

Remember how Hawke was the only one who could change his clothing at all, and everyone else had two different outfits max?

Lack of racial choices would not be the cause, it would be a symptom.

Are we good, or do you need me to draw you a diagram?

But no, you don't even consider that posibility.

Because all those possibilities are blathering nonsense with no possible connection to the issue. Scapegoating homoseuxal relationships is especially ridiculous. It's not particularly time or resource-consuming  to change a few pronouns in dialogue, not compared to changing two-thirds of the armor pieces to fit four more wildly differing body types.

It's all how elves and dwarves are everywhere in fantasy with you and how they are destroying everything around them.

Yeah, Bioware got rid of elf and dwarf player characters because I personally dislike them.

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I don't know how I can possibly make my real position any clearer to you.

Frankly, I don't know why we're having this conversation at all, because I wasn't speaking to you when I said that gender and skin colour choices were different from choosing to be an elf or a dwarf, I was refuting Fast Jimmy's ridiculous slippery slope argument that getting rid of elves and dwarves would ultimately lead to getting rid of all character creation options. All I was doing was pointing out that removing fantasy race choice and removing gender choice are not equivalent actions. When you remove the option to be a woman, or gay, or non-white, you are disenfranchising real minorities.

You might not care about that, but the team behind Dragon Age does. As Gaider has said many times when defending the choice to make all LIs in DA2 available to players of either gender, "fairness and fun gameplay win out".

They've said they'd love to bring back elves and dwarves in future installments, and add other races while they're at it. But making sure that players of different real backgrounds can have a character that represents them takes higher priority.

And you have the gall to call me a bigot.  <_<

It's not bigotry to dislike over-used fantasy tropes, or to suggest that writers start using more original ideas. I guess I'm also a bigot towards damsels in distress, or prophesied 'chosen ones'.

But if any elves or dwarves read this thread and are offended by my comments, they're free to contact me directly and I'll apologize sincerely.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 mai 2013 - 04:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Hawke_12 wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I wonder how much of it is stat gathering, I know BW collects a lot of stats, Maybe an overwhelming number of people just went with a default human.

80% of people in DAO played as a human. And this is counting all the characters created, not solely your first character.

Wow really? Thats a lot.

Yes. Most people in DA:O played as a human.

And as a male. And as a warrior. And I'd be willing to bet if they had an easy way to look at such things, they would find most people played white characters.

Does any of that mean they should remove the ability to choose gender, class or overall appearance? Consensus should not limit options.  

I agree. I've long thought that Dragon Age had a distinct lack of lightsabers, electricity, and space flight. It's not right for them to restrict my options like that just because of some consensus on fantasy elements.

[ArcaneJTM]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I agree. I've long thought that Dragon Age had a distinct lack of lightsabers, electricity, and space flight. It's not right for them to restrict my options like that just because of some consensus on fantasy elements.

There's a difference between what is everywhere in the game anyway and what is clearly outside the game world.

[AlanC9]

ArcaneJTM wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Your reading comprehension seems to be taking a hit here; I guess Plaintiff pushed some of your buttons or something. You've got the causality backwards. The argument is that different body types for the PC are a resource sink (animations, etc.), and this factor makes including different racial types for the PC also be more costly.

No, I get the resource sink argument.  I just disagree with his application of it.  Hence the other possible resource sinks I mentioned.  You're falling into a common misconception that more focus on something equals more efficiency or faster development or something.  But no matter how much they try, nine women can't make a baby in one month.

What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about more focus making things faster.

[ArcaneJTM]

Plaintiff wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...
And once again you blame alternate races for features you think are lacking.  Maybe it was accomidating homosexual relationships that did it?  Maybe it was having different hair styles?  Maybe it was having more than one kind of darkspawn?  Or maybe none of these had anything to do with it and it was something else entirely.

No, genius, the different body types of elves and dwarves might have been a barrier to their inclusion as player characters because of technical limitations relating to the equipment system. Coincidentally, it would also explain why you can't make Hawke fat.

See now that is a valid argument.  Too bad you didn't bring that up earlier instead of ranting about how elves and dwarves shouldn't even be considered in the first place because it takes away from everything else.

[AlanC9]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I agree. I've long thought that Dragon Age had a distinct lack of lightsabers, electricity, and space flight. It's not right for them to restrict my options like that just because of some consensus on fantasy elements.

Are you sure irony works on BSN? I've given up on it myself, but that's because of a few bad experiences on the ME3 Story board.

[AlanC9]

ArcaneJTM wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No, genius, the different body types of elves and dwarves might have been a barrier to their inclusion as player characters because of technical limitations relating to the equipment system. Coincidentally, it would also explain why you can't make Hawke fat.

See now that is a valid argument.  Too bad you didn't bring that up earlier instead of ranting about how elves and dwarves shouldn't even be considered in the first place because it takes away from everything else.

Those are the same argument. Such problems are soluble if someone wanted to spend the time to solve them.

[ArcaneJTM]

AlanC9 wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Your reading comprehension seems to be taking a hit here; I guess Plaintiff pushed some of your buttons or something. You've got the causality backwards. The argument is that different body types for the PC are a resource sink (animations, etc.), and this factor makes including different racial types for the PC also be more costly.

No, I get the resource sink argument.  I just disagree with his application of it.  Hence the other possible resource sinks I mentioned.  You're falling into a common misconception that more focus on something equals more efficiency or faster development or something.  But no matter how much they try, nine women can't make a baby in one month.

What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about more focus making things faster.

You've kinda missed the point there.  I wasn't saying you specifically thought that omitting certain features would make things faster.  I was saying that omitting features doesn't necessarily benifit other aspects, be it development time, narative, cost, what have you, which is pretty much what this whole mess of a thread has been about.

Those are the same argument. Such problems are soluble if someone wanted to spend the time to solve them.

Sorry, no, they are not.  A technical limitation is not the same as a resource shortage.  You can pump your vehicle full of unleaded gasoline, but if it's got a diesel engine you're asking for trouble.

Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 16 mai 2013 - 05:02 .