235 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

So, you've created life, life that assures a past civilization is not lost forever to imminent extinction.

As I said, to the catalyst, life is more important than lives. And, in that, 1 > 0.

I think people really miss this being a logical reasoning to something that doesn't take into account morality.

[KingZayd]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

That'd be true if advanced organic races were to stop emergin. Do we gave a reason to suspect this is the case?

I think the idea with newly-emerged organic life that emerges is that they'll fall into the same circle.

Or maybe they come into conflict with the synthetics that already overrun the galaxy (like we did with the catalyst).

And the synthetics from one species could come into conflict with other synthetics just as easily.

[PsyrenY]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The question is this: How did the Geth develop such a technology?

Legion says they stole it from Overlord. If you didn't do Overlord, this may be another case of the DLC being completed by someone else (in this case, the heretics may have raided the facility, liberated their allies, killed both Archers and yoinked the technology.)

ElSuperGecko wrote...

....and Shepard has no reason to believe it, trust it or accept it's faulty logic, period. 

Aside from it, you know, saving Shepard's life and showing him how to use the Crucible before all his friends die.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 16 mai 2013 - 10:20 .

[KaiserShep]

Morlath wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

So, you've created life, life that assures a past civilization is not lost forever to imminent extinction.

As I said, to the catalyst, life is more important than lives. And, in that, 1 > 0.

I think people really miss this being a logical reasoning to something that doesn't take into account morality.

And you must love machine logic. If a species is processed into a form that can no longer perform its life processes, and develop naturally beyond its current state, it is pretty much extinct anyway. No amount of archiving will change that. The Protheans are functionally extinct since only Javik is left (and presumably there's no Prothean genetic material in the reapers since they failed to make a reaper with them) So all we have left is archived data. To a machine-god, that's fine and dandy, but that just doesn't work. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 mai 2013 - 10:11 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

KaiserShep wrote...

Morlath wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

So, you've created life, life that assures a past civilization is not lost forever to imminent extinction.

As I said, to the catalyst, life is more important than lives. And, in that, 1 > 0.

I think people really miss this being a logical reasoning to something that doesn't take into account morality.

And you must love machine logic. If a species is processed into a form that can no longer perform its life processes, and develop naturally beyond its current state, it is pretty much extinct anyway. No amount of archiving will change that. The Protheans are functionally extinct since only Javik is left (and presumably there's no Prothean genetic material in the reapers since they failed to make a reaper with them) So all we have left is archived data. To a machine-god, that's fine and dandy, but that just doesn't work.

I don't think anyone here is endorsing its solution, we just understand how/why the cycle *is* a solution, if only on a technical level. Anyone who chooses Destroy, Control, or Sync sees at least one better solution, if not all three.

[Morlath]

KaiserShep wrote...

Morlath wrote...

I think people really miss this being a logical reasoning to something that doesn't take into account morality.

And you must love machine logic. If a species is processed into a form that can no longer perform its life processes, and develop naturally beyond its current state, it is pretty much extinct anyway. No amount of archiving will change that. The Protheans are functionally extinct since only Javik is left (and presumably there's no Prothean genetic material in the reapers since they failed to make a reaper with them) So all we have left is archived data. To a machine-god, that's fine and dandy, but that just doesn't work. 

And nowhere in my post did I say I agreed with the Catalyst only that I understood its very basic logical conclusion.

[The Night Mammoth]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

All I can say to that is 'so what?' 

Each individual is preserved but not conscious? So what? They might as well be dead, because I don't see the difference between an eternity of forced unconsciousness in a Reaper after losing your body and ability to experience life as you want to as an individual, and being a lifeless corpse. 

Cultures are preserved? So what? There's nothing of worth in the hard information of the culture of a species if it never ever gets passed down and is no use to anyone. See the book burning analogy again. Storing a culture in a Reaper is the same as destroying it.

So, you've created life, life that assures a past civilization is not lost forever to imminent extinction.

As I said, to the catalyst, life is more important than lives. And, in that, 1 > 0.

So... anything to say about what I actually said? Is a forced eternity of unconsciousness after losing everything that made you, you, preferable to death? Is there any value a culture being reduced to basic information, never to be seen or used in a useful capacity ever again? The Catalyst thinks this is useful, but I don't think so. Do you? Why? The Catalyst might well think life is more important than 'lives', but I think it believes that for arbitrary reasons, and it's actions are made no better as a result. 

If what you're saying is that the Catalyst is just trying to stop advanced organics from being completely lost, and so it kills them and stores them, I have wa-a-a-a-a-a-y more reason to choose Destroy now. That would mean it's causing the thing it wants to prevent from arbitrary reasons, or at least arbitrary reasons in my eyes.

Except, again, they are not lost under his solution. They are definitely not "completely" lost, either.

I've already said I don't think there's an important disctinction between synthetics killing advanced organics, and the Catalyst killing them, but pointlessly storing information on them and effectively keeping some in forced imprisonment after stripping them of everything unique about them.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 mai 2013 - 10:32 .

[Eryri]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Aside from it, you know, saving Shepard's life and showing him how to use the Crucible before all his friends die.

When did it save his life? All it did was move him from one part of the Citadel to another and tell him to wake up. I don't remember it actually treating his injuries. For all Shepard knew, he might have just been kidnapped away to keep him from finding and using the real "Reaper Off Button".

And how is Shepard to know that the Catalyst's instructions on how to activate the Crucible are correct at the time he makes the choice? 

Modifié par Eryri, 16 mai 2013 - 10:44 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Eryri wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Aside from it, you know, saving Shepard's life and showing him how to use the Crucible before all his friends die.

When did it save his life? All it did was move him from one part of the Citadel to another and tell him to wake up. I don't remember it actually treating his injuries. For all Shepard knew, he might have just been kidnapped away to keep him from finding and using the real "Reaper Off Button".

And how is Shepard to know that the Catalyst's instructions on how to activate the Crucible are correct at the time he makes the choice? 

Because apparently, the Catalyst has no reason to lie. Why, did you think the Reapers were untrustworthy, or something? That's silly, the Reapers are honest and would never mislead you. 

[His Name was HYR!!]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

So... anything to say about what I actually said? Is a forced eternity of unconsciousness after losing everything that made you, you, preferable to death?

That choice, to me, comes down to: dead and useless, or dead and useful. In which case, I choose the latter.

Perhaps similarly, I would want my body donated when I die, IRL.

Interestingly enough, I had that talk with my cousin, and it ended up with us talking about ME3's ending.

I've already said I don't think there's an important disctinction between synthetics killing advanced organics, and the Catalyst killing them, but pointlessly storing information on them and effectively keeping some in forced imprisonment after stripping them of everything unique about them.

In response to this, and whether or not the Reapers are useful... they are not, under the "cycle" solution, but I get the sense that the Catalyst was still searching for another solution and hoped that one day they would be part of it and would become useful.

They do become useful in Sync, as indicated by EDI's narration.

[PsyrenY]

Eryri wrote...

When did it save his life? All it did was move him from one part of the Citadel to another and tell him to wake up.

It moved him to the part he needed to be at. Good luck saving the galaxy from a puddle of blood on the floor.

Eryri wrote...
For all Shepard knew, he might have just been kidnapped away to keep him from finding and using the real "Reaper Off Button".

Even if there was such a thing, Shepard clearly had no idea where it was.

Eryri wrote...
And how is Shepard to know that the Catalyst's instructions on how to activate the Crucible are correct at the time he makes the choice? 

How do you know shooting the pipe doesn't just engulf you in boiling hot gas?
Answer: you don't. So stand there and bleed out instead, that'll show the hologram who's boss.

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Because apparently, the Catalyst has no reason to lie. Why, did you think the Reapers were untrustworthy, or something? That's silly, the Reapers are honest and would never mislead you. 

If they wanted to kill you after installing the Crucible, it would be pathetically easy. 

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 16 mai 2013 - 11:05 .

[The Night Mammoth]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

So... anything to say about what I actually said? Is a forced eternity of unconsciousness after losing everything that made you, you, preferable to death?

That choice, to me, comes down to: dead and useless, or dead and useful. In which case, I choose the latter.

Perhaps similarly, I would want my body donated when I die, IRL.

Interestingly enough, I had that talk with my cousin, and it ended up with us talking about ME3's ending.

I agree with that, I'm an organ donor myself, but I don't see where the use is. Its dead and useless, or dead and just as useless. 

I've already said I don't think there's an important disctinction between synthetics killing advanced organics, and the Catalyst killing them, but pointlessly storing information on them and effectively keeping some in forced imprisonment after stripping them of everything unique about them.

In response to this, and whether or not the Reapers are useful... they are not, under the "cycle" solution, but I get the sense that the Catalyst was still searching for another solution and hoped that one day they would be part of it and would become useful.

They do become useful in Sync, as indicated by EDI's narration.

Useful how? I don't choose Synthesis because I want to free all the people the Reapers have killed and likely indoctrinated, and because I don't see a viable future or a happy society where Reapers are just walking aroud like nothing wrong unless people are being forcefully altered. 

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Because apparently, the Catalyst has no reason to lie. Why, did you think the Reapers were untrustworthy, or something? That's silly, the Reapers are honest and would never mislead you. 

If they wanted to kill you after installing the Crucible, it would be pathetically easy. 

Oh great, the Reapers have stopped trying really hard to kill me for a ten seconds, after trying really hard for the past three years, clearly, they're now completely honest and trustworthy. Any dragon's teeth nearby? I want to throw myself on one, that husk said it doesn't hurt. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 mai 2013 - 11:13 .

[PsyrenY]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Oh great, the Reapers have stopped trying really hard to kill me for a ten seconds, after trying really hard for the past three years, clearly, they're now completely honest and trustworthy. Any dragon's teeth nearby? I want to throw myself on one, that husk said it doesn't hurt. 

You didn't install a Crucible during those three years. Try to keep up.

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Oh great, the Reapers have stopped trying really hard to kill me for a ten seconds, after trying really hard for the past three years, clearly, they're now completely honest and trustworthy. Any dragon's teeth nearby? I want to throw myself on one, that husk said it doesn't hurt. 

You didn't install a Crucible during those three years. Try to keep up.

Yeah, you're right. Iminent destuction clearly promotes honesty. It'd be silly to think that when Shepard has the device capable of destroying them plugged in they'd be more inclined to misdirect him. 

[Eryri]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Eryri wrote...

When did it save his life? All it did was move him from one part of the Citadel to another and tell him to wake up.

It moved him to the part he needed to be at. Good luck saving the galaxy from a puddle of blood on the floor.

But how does Shepard know that it is "the part that he needed to be at"? All he has is the Catalyst's word.

Eryri wrote...
For all Shepard knew, he might have just been kidnapped away to keep him from finding and using the real "Reaper Off Button".

Even if there was such a thing, Shepard clearly had no idea where it was.

Which still doesn't mean that it is where the Catalyst says it is.

Eryri wrote...
And how is Shepard to know that the Catalyst's instructions on how to activate the Crucible are correct at the time he makes the choice? 

How do you know shooting the pipe doesn't just engulf you in boiling hot gas?
Answer: you don't. So stand there and bleed out instead, that'll show the hologram who's boss.

Again, not an argument to trust the catalyst. The fact that Shepard is bleeding out is irrelevant to whether or not shooting the tube does anything useful.

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Because apparently, the Catalyst has no reason to lie. Why, did you think the Reapers were untrustworthy, or something? That's silly, the Reapers are honest and would never mislead you. 

If they wanted to kill you after installing the Crucible, it would be pathetically easy. 

As easy as it apparently was to persuade us to grab live wires, shoot a tube of flammable gas, or jump into a chasm filled with searing light, you mean? 

Besides, I thought the Catalyst was supposedly limited in its control of the Citadel, hence its need for Sovereign to reactivate the relay to darkspace? Either it is helpless, and therefore might indeed attempt to defend itself by tricking Shepard into committing suicide, or it does have some control over the functions of its own home, in which case it might have killed Shepard, and everyone else on the Citadel, at any time it wanted, just by switching off the air.

Either way, the story has problems.

Modifié par Eryri, 16 mai 2013 - 11:30 .

[PsyrenY]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Yeah, you're right. Iminent destuction clearly promotes honesty. It'd be silly to think that when Shepard has the device capable of destroying them plugged in they'd be more inclined to misdirect him. 

So what do you do then? Try to choose the opposite of whatever he tells you to? Phone a friend? Demand to go back down the elevator? What?

[PsyrenY]

Eryri wrote...

But how does Shepard know that it is "the part that he needed to be at"? All he has is the Catalyst's word.

The visions.  And, if you don't trust them, you're more than welcome to look around. You can even do this in-game, though of course the clock is ticking.

Eryri wrote...
Which still doesn't mean that it is where the Catalyst says it is.

Again, Shepard had no better ideas.
If the Catalyst is capable of deceiving you, presenting Destroy at all is foolish, let alone being honest about how to reach it. He would have thanked you for successfully completing the Synthesizer, and been silent on all inquries as to how to achieve some other outcome.

Eryri wrote...
Again, not an argument to trust the catalyst. The fact that Shepard is bleeding out is irrelevant to whether or not shooting the tube does anything useful.

It isn't irrelevant. The fact that Shepard is bleeding out means that, if the Catalyst wanted you dead, it wouldn't have to interact with you at all.

[The Night Mammoth]

Tell it to f*ck itself with the giant space vibrator and jump off the platform.

[Eryri]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Eryri wrote...

But how does Shepard know that it is "the part that he needed to be at"? All he has is the Catalyst's word.

The visions.  And, if you don't trust them, you're more than welcome to look around. You can even do this in-game, though of course the clock is ticking.

The visions? If I didn't trust the Catalyst, why would I trust the hallucinations that it can somehow pipe directly into my head?

Eryri wrote...
Which still doesn't mean that it is where the Catalyst says it is.

Again, Shepard had no better ideas.
If the Catalyst is capable of deceiving you, presenting Destroy at all is foolish, let alone being honest about how to reach it. He would have thanked you for successfully completing the Synthesizer, and been silent on all inquries as to how to achieve some other outcome.

But Shepard has no reason to think that the Crucible is even capable of Control and Synthesis. As far as he knows, it can only destroy. Therefore, he might reasonably assume that the Catalyst is merely trying to confuse him with the other two options which may be completely false, and that doing anything that the Catalyst suggests would sabotage the Crucible, kill himself, or both.

Eryri wrote...
Again, not an argument to trust the catalyst. The fact that Shepard is bleeding out is irrelevant to whether or not shooting the tube does anything useful.

It isn't irrelevant. The fact that Shepard is bleeding out means that, if the Catalyst wanted you dead, it wouldn't have to interact with you at all.

But then the Catalyst would have to gamble that Shepard will bleed out before he stumbles on the real activation button. Or that the reapers can destroy the Crucible before the Alliance scientists work out how to activate it remotely. 
Shepard has little to no idea how the Crucible is supposed to turn on. No one does, not even the scientists who built it. For all he knows it just needs a few more minutes to warm up. And yes, I know Hackett was complaining that nothing seemed to be happening, but he wouldn't know what to expect either.

Modifié par Eryri, 16 mai 2013 - 11:53 .

[SirLugash]

Shepard bleeding might be an issue, but it doesn't matter in the ending.
The only reason you could get a "Critical Mission Failure" is because the Crucible was destroyed, not because Shepard bleeded out.
And I alway wondered why the CMF was even there, I mean if the Catalyst needs Shepard to fulfill his task (therefore Shep making a choice), why would he as controller of the Reapers let them destroy it?

Modifié par SirLugash, 17 mai 2013 - 12:20 .

[AlanC9]

Eryri wrote...

But Shepard has no reason to think that the Crucible is even capable of Control and Synthesis. As far as he knows, it can only destroy. Therefore, he might reasonably assume that the Catalyst is merely trying to confuse him with the other two options which may be completely false, and that doing anything that the Catalyst suggests would sabotage the Crucible, kill himself, or both.

Who told him the italed bit? Last I checked, Shepard didn't know what the thing did, only that the Protheans thought it would help.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 mai 2013 - 12:58 .

[Morlath]

AlanC9 wrote...

Who told him the italed bit? Last I checked, Shepard didn't know what the thing did, only that the Protheans thought it would help.

To follow on....it's interesting that people believe the Catalyst that shooting the tube destroys everything but they don't believe it for anything else.

[Priss Blackburne]

Picture this..you get the end of a game meet the leader of the enemy you have been fighting throughout the entire series. and he tells you he's responsible for everything going on then gives you three options.

1 : grab some high powered electrical terminals with your bare hands
2: jump into a big high powered energy stream, basically a gigantic laser
3: shoot a tube cause an explosion destroying possibly your only means of defeating him

This is how I felt when I got to the original endings the first time pre-EC. I was literaly thinking I'm missing something the first time I got to the ending, that there had to be a trick.

[xlegionx]

AlanC9 wrote...

Eryri wrote...

But Shepard has no reason to think that the Crucible is even capable of Control and Synthesis. As far as he knows, it can only destroy. Therefore, he might reasonably assume that the Catalyst is merely trying to confuse him with the other two options which may be completely false, and that doing anything that the Catalyst suggests would sabotage the Crucible, kill himself, or both.

Who told him the italed bit? Last I checked, Shepard didn't know what the thing did, only that the Protheans thought it would help.

Well, based on what Liara and the people building the Crucible said, that's what Shepard thought the Crucible did: Destroy the Reapers. If the united species thought there was no plausibility to the effectiveness of the Crucible, they wouldn't have poured vast amounts of the sparce resources they had available into its construction. It is a leap of faith situation: they don't know for sure that the Crucible will work, but they see no other viable alternative

Modifié par xlegionx, 17 mai 2013 - 01:26 .