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Less pre-game customization imakes for a better story IMO


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#1
InfinitePaths

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 I read a thread that complains about how we can't create our characters anymore(Race,origin...) and how it sucks to be only human with most likely set backstory,it got highly rated and agreed on.This is a common opinion of the community and I would like to present my different conflicting opinion.I wanted to reply there but I am going a little bit of off topic so I would like to create a whole thread about it


We have so many RPGs that let you create your own really unique characters,like Skyrim,but in games like Skyrim you lose the story value and the character proggresion value.I think that if you get a set character history,race,looks,backstory you can have more RP value and more quallity character development and choices later on.Example:The witcher,you already have a set character,his gender,looks and backstory,but you still develop that character and enjoy the story,that's also a way to make an enjoyable RPG and it had more choices and character development than Origins IMO.It is not about creating your character and what's his/hers history before you started playing,but directing the story that's already been set by Bioware.Like an Interactive book or movie,you already have your set story,setting,character but you guide the story.


That's not to say that creating your own character is bad,not at all,I am an MMO role-player and I have to say that that really is the best place to create your own character,because there you create your own character development,your own story,and no scripted event will force you to do something with your character,and truth be told every dialouge option you make in DA:O is scripted and written by Bioware and not by you.So I'd say that  single player RPGs are most enjoyable and have the space to make more decisions when you have set characters and stories and YOU developing and directing them the way you want.Like an interactive book or movie,you don't create your own characters,but you can guide them on their path.Another great example of this is the Walking dead:The game.You already have the protagonist,story,setting and everything set,but you can still guide your character and develop the story the way you want(OK not so great example,the walking dead is afully linear,giving you only the illusion of choice but you get what I'm saying)


The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to create your own characters go RP on an MMO or go play some D&D interactive kind of storytelling with your friends.In my opinion The best single player RPG stories are when you already have set characters and stories and then you guiding the story as it goes on.DA:O does that actually,you have to CHOSE between BIOWARE MADE stories and races and then follow BIOWARE MADE story.Which is fine,but still if they took all the development  time they did to give you the Ilusion that you're creating your own character,when actually you're playing Bioware made stories,they could have just created 1 backstory,1 character race and let you continue develop the character over time.Because honestly you can't create YOUR OWN character story in an RPG,it's already set,and IMO games shouldn't focus on giving you Illusion that the character is yours by giving you more races,but creating one quallity backstory character that you can develop over time in the direction you want.

It's not like you're dropped in a universe and can do and type and emote anything you want,you're playing a scripted story and creating your own character just doesn't work here IMO.That doesn't mean that you can't guide the story and connect with the protagonist like I said about


Thank you for the attention,I hope I don't get flamed or raged on because my opinion is so much different than most other opinions.

Modifié par HeriocGreyWarden, 13 mai 2013 - 07:34 .


#2
Melca36

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Um. Could you separate that in paragraphs next time.

And we'll just have to agree to disagree.

#3
Little Princess Peach

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paragraphs are a gals best friend

#4
The Hierophant

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Paragraphs?

#5
InfinitePaths

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Strange,the paragraphs didn't work.Well done them again!

#6
Xebioz

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I totally disagree with the notion that customization takes away from the story. As long as customization is implemented well there is no conflict with the story (as I've found it works in Origins). As I said earlier many like to be given a character and that's fine, but it comes down to if you're the kind of person that likes to create and control your character or play as a given one.

#7
ManOfSteel

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Yeah, I think that some sacrifices have to be made to the storytelling if full character customization is a thing you want. I'd rather see those sacrifices made if it means an excellent story with great storytelling is the result.

With that said, Origins handled it pretty well.

#8
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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I think there's a middle area. The middle area is where most Bioware games lie, to a degree. In ME you were forced to be a human, which was a fundamental part of the story (first human Spectre, humanity earning their own Reaper, etc.), but you could choose gender and visual characteristics.

Skyrim is a good example of it being too open--it's a mile wide and an inch deep. I personally would use TW as an example of a too restrictive system--you're forced to play a white male around 40, who's had a certain life up to this point (although, nudge nudge wink wink amnesia). Plus the game's dialog is essentially linear.

Origins in DA:O are another example of that middle area--they restrict your character in race, to a socioeconomic background, but that's it.

So I understand your position, and agree to an extent. To an extent.

#9
InfinitePaths

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EntropicAngel wrote...

I think there's a middle area. The middle area is where most Bioware games lie, to a degree. In ME you were forced to be a human, which was a fundamental part of the story (first human Spectre, humanity earning their own Reaper, etc.), but you could choose gender and visual characteristics.

Skyrim is a good example of it being too open--it's a mile wide and an inch deep. I personally would use TW as an example of a too restrictive system--you're forced to play a white male around 40, who's had a certain life up to this point (although, nudge nudge wink wink amnesia). Plus the game's dialog is essentially linear.

Origins in DA:O are another example of that middle area--they restrict your character in race, to a socioeconomic background, but that's it.

So I understand your position, and agree to an extent. To an extent.


You make a good point,I also somewhat agree with the things you said above.

#10
Lobos1988

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MORE customization deepens the whole experience!

#11
FINE HERE

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Name three other single player rpgs that let you customize a character; I mean REALLY customize a character, not let you pick gender and give you a few hairstyles to choose from and only yes or no questions in game. That's a very small list. You know how many games have a set character and storyline? TONS.

I don't want to play an MMO, I don't want to match my pace with other people, especially since the three times I tried to play an MMO, all that happened was some jerk killed me within the first five minutes. They're not fun to me, and they're more expensive with subscription fees. And take more time to beat with very little story.

Don't take away the customization from DA games. That makes the story much more interesting to many people. That's the reason I got into the series in the first place.

#12
Chaos Lord Malek

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Xebioz wrote...

I totally disagree with the notion that customization takes away from the story. As long as customization is implemented well there is no conflict with the story (as I've found it works in Origins). As I said earlier many like to be given a character and that's fine, but it comes down to if you're the kind of person that likes to create and control your character or play as a given one.


The history is against you man. The RPGs with best story are with set protagonist (Torment, Witcher, Deus Ex)

There are some that manages to make a good story, but even they have to limmit customization (Knights of Old Republic 1 and 2 especially - they limmit you to human and Jedi wanabe only)

The only RPG that got a mindblowing story and kept D&D style customization was NWN2:Mask of the Betrayer. Every other RPG , even Fallout or Baldur's Gate got shafted on story side, because either of the technology limmitations or the limmitation of character customization. (Yea, New Vegas is good in this - but you still can be only human currier and nothing else)

Do not doubt that if Baldur's Gate was made today and with a set protagonist it would be bombastic game of the year,  with super cinematic and atmospheric experience, filled with choices and story twists. However, Lizards on the Toast :wizard: hold the rights to it and they won't let it go.

#13
Swagger7

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Customization is the main point for me. If I can't make the story my own, then I might as well read it in a book.

#14
KDD-0063

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I don't think it matters.

The character usually has a background, and that background is usually not defined in the so called "pre-game customization" with rare exceptions like Dragon Age Origins. Even then most of the protagonist's identity is not customizable (the warden) and only a portion is (connected to your origin).

Chris Avellone completely hates character customization but even he makes the character customizable, then define the character later through the story in game most of the time.

-----------------------------------dividing----------------------------------

Speaking of the other thread about people wanting customization, I highly doubt it is what people actually want.

I believe that players are okay with set protagonists, but when compared to Origins, DA2 doesn't have six origins to choose from. People think lack of customization is the problem, but imo the problem isn't six, it is the origins. The background. The background of Hawke is simply so weak that building a background requires a boring chore called Act 1 and even then it is not spectacular.

Another case of DA2 just being bad.

Modifié par KDD-0063, 13 mai 2013 - 10:08 .


#15
Xebioz

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Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Xebioz wrote...

I totally disagree with the notion that customization takes away from the story. As long as customization is implemented well there is no conflict with the story (as I've found it works in Origins). As I said earlier many like to be given a character and that's fine, but it comes down to if you're the kind of person that likes to create and control your character or play as a given one.


The history is against you man. The RPGs with best story are with set protagonist (Torment, Witcher, Deus Ex)

There are some that manages to make a good story, but even they have to limmit customization (Knights of Old Republic 1 and 2 especially - they limmit you to human and Jedi wanabe only)

The only RPG that got a mindblowing story and kept D&D style customization was NWN2:Mask of the Betrayer. Every other RPG , even Fallout or Baldur's Gate got shafted on story side, because either of the technology limmitations or the limmitation of character customization. (Yea, New Vegas is good in this - but you still can be only human currier and nothing else)

Do not doubt that if Baldur's Gate was made today and with a set protagonist it would be bombastic game of the year,  with super cinematic and atmospheric experience, filled with choices and story twists. However, Lizards on the Toast :wizard: hold the rights to it and they won't let it go.


Of course that's true if your opinion = fact which it is not. I prefer DA:O's approach vastly to that of DA2 which should say something about why I've replayed DA:O about 15 times with different origins and backgrounds and I find the customization a breath of fresh air. Having a character thrust upon you over which you have little control *hrrm*DialogueWheel*hrmm* is not what I enjoy nor many others.

Modifié par Xebioz, 13 mai 2013 - 10:05 .


#16
Knight of Dane

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And yet Dragon Age 2 was worse than Origins........................

#17
EmperorSahlertz

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Knight of Dane wrote...

And yet Dragon Age 2 was worse than Origins........................

Purty sure that is a subjective claim right there.

#18
Sylvius the Mad

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Less character customisation makes for fewer stories, regardless of quality.

It may well be that the best possible story a game can tell requires a fixed character design, but then that story becomes the ONLY story that game can tell.

I'd much rather have a game within which I can tell many stories.

#19
EmperorSahlertz

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The fixed background of a character does not prevent his path from diverging in his future. For instance all your companions in DA have fixed backgrounds, but all of them have myriads stories, that differ from eachother. There is nothing preventing the same from the main character.
Until games have evolved to a point where they can "organically" adapt to your own characters, like a dungeon master of PnP, I will prefer the fixed backgrounds.

#20
Sylvius the Mad

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If he's the same person each time, why would he make different choices?

#21
eyesofastorm

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HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

*snip*

We have so many RPGs that let you create your own really unique characters,like Skyrim,...

*snip*


So many?  You listed one.  The fact is that set protagonists have been way more prevalent in the AAA space recently.  Dispute that... if you dare.  :devil:

#22
EmperorSahlertz

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If he's the same person each time, why would he make different choices?

Because you are the one playing him? A real person does not have the luxury of knowing what was to his left when he exited his door. In the virtual world, we have the luxury of "quickload" and "new game", that lets us pick the other road.

#23
Sylvius the Mad

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If he's the same person each time, why would he make different choices?

Because you are the one playing him?

I'm roleplaying him.  I am merely the mechanism through which he makes decisions.

A real person does not have the luxury of knowing what was to his left when he exited his door.

So neither should he.  If he's making in-character decisions, he can't take into account knowledge he doesn't possess.

In the virtual world, we have the luxury of "quickload" and "new game", that lets us pick the other road.

So, metagaming.

I want to roleplay characters.  The characters make decisions themselves - I don't make decisions for them.  I can't just decide that he's going to do something different without breaking his character.

#24
Wulfram

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My experience doesn't really agree with your hypothesis. And even the best story is no good if I don't really like the protagonist.

Though there are areas where limitations can be beneficial. Mass Effect definitely benefited from knowing that the PC was an Alliance Marine. And the backgrounds did a good job of allowing a little hook for stuff to attack to, while still also leaving quite a broad ground for interpretation. On the other hand, I don't think DA2 really extracted enough benefit out of the presence of the Hawke family to justify that constraint.

#25
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If he's the same person each time, why would he make different choices?


Different stimuli?