289 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

FINE HERE wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Context is not the issue at all.

Role-playing is thinking like a character and, based on those thoughts, making decisions for them.

If the game tells you what your character is thinking, that suspends the role of what the player is supposed to be doing. That's a problem.

If the game doesn't react to your decisions, then the decisions don't really exist.

DA2 doesn't tell you what your character is thinking. Like all previous Bioware games, it gives you a selection of pre-programmed thoughts to choose from and express.

But this thread was never about that, and I don't know how we even got on this tangent. It was specifically talking about restrictions on character creation.

Well, dialog options did 'help' to make your character's personality in DA2, so it's sort of relevant? (It's not pre-game, but still...)

And in DA2, you are told what your character is thinking, sort of. Green/Blue symbol equals happy, gentle thoughts, Purple symbol equals witty, oportunist thoughts, and red symbol equals aggressive, violent thoughts. Oh, and hearts equal ridiculously flirty thoughts. There's no neutral option. (Eh, unless it's one of those cirlce of arrows responses, but those sometimes attach the 'dominant' personality, which is bad.) That was one of the things I hated about it.

But it's not telling you what your character is thnking because you can choose the tone you want to express. Frankly, I think tone is far important to conveying meaning than the specific words that are said.

I don't think there should be a 'neutral' option. What does that even mean?

[Plaintiff]

ArcaneJTM wrote...
They are not mutually exclusive, as I've pointed out multiple times.

Sometimes they are. Hawke could certainly not do the things that he does if he was an elf. He does not have the backing of the Grey Wardens, he is an ordinary human being with noble ancestry. If he was an elf, he could not leave the alienage, and might even be forbidden from carrying weapons, which would make the entire first act of the game fall apart completely.

You're barking up the wrong tree, and quite frankly making an ass out of yourself as well.  Tone it down.

I'm not the one resorting to name-calling.

The fact that you can shout them down (literally) makes you an exception.  That should have been clear to you from the get go.

No it does not. Shouting at Jarls or the city guard or the civilians of a given hold doesn't earn you respect, it gets you arrested. When you shout near people, they don't acknowledge it later when you talk to them, except the guards, who tell you to knock it off.

Being dragonborn don't give you any special privileges, and unless you want the inconvenience of being constantly attacked, you're required to keep your identity secret in the cities anyway. So it doesn't make any sense for a Jarl to even let my khajiit character into the city, let alone grant them an audience or allow them to buy a house.

You are wrong.  See Origins and DA2.  Plenty of elves and dwarves running around outside of the alienage or deep roads.

Location is not what limits them, social status is. Your elf or dwarf in Origins has the backing of the Grey Wardens, Hawke does not.

You don't have to have each and every NPC announcing to the world that you are an elf or a dwarf or whatever and calling for the guards all the time because of it.  That would break immersion more than help it.  Seriously, you know you're not human.  You don't need every single person you come across to remind you of it.

Well that's how racism works, and racism exists in Thedas. So no, you don't have to have it, but it doesn't make sense that your elf would be the only one in the world who doesn't have to put up with it.

I really don't get this nonsense that being allowed pointy ears would somehow completely destroy any hope of having a good story.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that's not even remotely close what I said. Come back when you actually understand my point.

If you're really so worried that the role playing game part might get in the way of the story part then maybe you'd feel better if Bioware just scraped the whole thing and sent the script to Hollywood.  <_<

Jesus Christ, you really don't have a ****ing clue what I'm saying.

If the narrative isn't cohesive, then role-playing isn't possible. If some roleplaying choices need to be limited in order for the narrative to make sense, then they should be limited.

But you know what? I really wouldn't give a **** if Bioware scrapped the "role-playing" element completely.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think there should be a 'neutral' option. What does that even mean?

It means that I'm indifferent to the discussion, or I'm not interested in telling the whole world how I feel and am keeping my feelings to myself.

About 70% of my real-world conversation is this way.

That's just stupid. If the character is indifferent to what's happening, then why the **** are they even there?

If I wanted to roleplay a character who stays home all day, picking at their navel and not caring about things, I wouldn't buy fantasy adventure games.

[Nightdragon8]

FINE HERE wrote...

Name three other single player rpgs that let you customize a character; I mean REALLY customize a character, not let you pick gender and give you a few hairstyles to choose from and only yes or no questions in game. That's a very small list. You know how many games have a set character and storyline? TONS.

I don't want to play an MMO, I don't want to match my pace with other people, especially since the three times I tried to play an MMO, all that happened was some jerk killed me within the first five minutes. They're not fun to me, and they're more expensive with subscription fees. And take more time to beat with very little story.

Don't take away the customization from DA games. That makes the story much more interesting to many people. That's the reason I got into the series in the first place.

let me guess, Linage 2 or that other 100% pvp game

MMO doesn't = PvP and in most MMO's the only time you have to match pace is during raids and stuff.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Besides, if I wanted to experience a story with a well-defined protagonist and a linear plot arc, I would choose the mediums of film and literature over video games. They are much better suited to it.

[ArcaneJTM]

Plaintiff wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...
They are not mutually exclusive, as I've pointed out multiple times.

Sometimes they are. Hawke could certainly not do the things that he does if he was an elf. He does not have the backing of the Grey Wardens, he is an ordinary human being with noble ancestry. If he was an elf, he could not leave the alienage, and might even be forbidden from carrying weapons, which would make the entire first act of the game fall apart completely.

Money fixes everything in kirkwall.  It's your mother's name that gave you the right to purchase the estate along with the deep roads treasure.  How hard is it to imagine Hawke giving his mother the money and having her buy the estate?  Also, it wouldn't be the first time a non-human had an estate in hightown.  Bartrand, a dwarf, had an estate in hightown.  Fenris, an elf, also had an estate, though admitedly he was squatting.  Merrill, an elf, can also move from the alienage into your high town estate.

Simply put, you are provably wrong.

The fact that you can shout them down (literally) makes you an exception.  That should have been clear to you from the get go.

No it does not. Shouting at Jarls or the city guard or the civilians of a given hold doesn't earn you respect, it gets you arrested. When you shout near people, they don't acknowledge it later when you talk to them, except the guards, who tell you to knock it off.

Being dragonborn don't give you any special privileges, and unless you want the inconvenience of being constantly attacked, you're required to keep your identity secret in the cities anyway. So it doesn't make any sense for a Jarl to even let my khajiit character into the city, let alone grant them an audience or allow them to buy a house.

Right, and the fact that the populace is constantly commenting on you being dragonborn, being summoned by the jarls specifically because you are dragonborn, being highly regarded as a walking legend and telling everyone that you are dragonborn, not to mention the whole dragon killing and soul sucking thing in the middle of town when one attacks means absolutely nothing to you?  Everybody is really completely blind and clueless as to your identity?

Please.  <_<

You are wrong.  See Origins and DA2.  Plenty of elves and dwarves running around outside of the alienage or deep roads.

Location is not what limits them, social status is. Your elf or dwarf in Origins has the backing of the Grey Wardens, Hawke does not.

Hawke is filthy rich and killed the Arishok in single combat.  Nobody gives a rat's behind that he's a frikin MAGE that has been throwing fireballs in the middle of the street for six years!  I don't think being an elf or dwarf would make that much difference.

You don't have to have each and every NPC announcing to the world that you are an elf or a dwarf or whatever and calling for the guards all the time because of it.  That would break immersion more than help it.  Seriously, you know you're not human.  You don't need every single person you come across to remind you of it.

Well that's how racism works, and racism exists in Thedas. So no, you don't have to have it, but it doesn't make sense that your elf would be the only one in the world who doesn't have to put up with it.

See previous comment.

But you know what? I really wouldn't give a **** if Bioware scrapped the "role-playing" element completely.

We know.  You've made your disdain for the RP part of RPGs quite clear.  You may as well be complaining that your car has wheels though.

Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 15 mai 2013 - 03:29 .

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Plaintiff wrote...


But you know what? I really wouldn't give a **** if Bioware scrapped the "role-playing" element completely.

Let me direct you to something new that exists to convey a tightly-woven narrative with a well defined plot arc. It is called, 'Cinema'. You see what they do, is they take writers of various quality, and they pay them to come up with entire stories and characters to entertain and inform people. Then they pay people to act out these stories, and film it in a way that is visually stimulating. If you would like this expereince extended into roughly 80 hours, let me suggest the 'TV Season'. 

Or, if you want an even stronger narrative with deep thematic explorations and nuanced characterization, there is a place called 'The Library' where you can borrow objects called 'Books'.

Not quite interactive enough, you say? Well, the thing about these books is that you can read them at your own leisure. You could, conceivably, read a couple of pages while waiting in the lobby for your next match of CoD. There you go! An excellently crafted fictional narrative and blockbuster game play elements combined, all in the comfort of your own home!

No need to thank me, you're welcome! :innocent:

[FINE HERE]

Plaintiff wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Context is not the issue at all.

Role-playing is thinking like a character and, based on those thoughts, making decisions for them.

If the game tells you what your character is thinking, that suspends the role of what the player is supposed to be doing. That's a problem.

If the game doesn't react to your decisions, then the decisions don't really exist.

DA2 doesn't tell you what your character is thinking. Like all previous Bioware games, it gives you a selection of pre-programmed thoughts to choose from and express.

But this thread was never about that, and I don't know how we even got on this tangent. It was specifically talking about restrictions on character creation.

Well, dialog options did 'help' to make your character's personality in DA2, so it's sort of relevant? (It's not pre-game, but still...)

And in DA2, you are told what your character is thinking, sort of. Green/Blue symbol equals happy, gentle thoughts, Purple symbol equals witty, oportunist thoughts, and red symbol equals aggressive, violent thoughts. Oh, and hearts equal ridiculously flirty thoughts. There's no neutral option. (Eh, unless it's one of those cirlce of arrows responses, but those sometimes attach the 'dominant' personality, which is bad.) That was one of the things I hated about it.

But it's not telling you what your character is thnking because you can choose the tone you want to express. Frankly, I think tone is far important to conveying meaning than the specific words that are said.

I don't think there should be a 'neutral' option. What does that even mean?

Well, by neutral option, I meant something not drenched in a force personality: 'What do you need?' 'What do you want?' 'I will do that.' 'I don't want to.' 'What do you mean?' 'Continue with your story.' 

It's not screaming happy, angry, witty or whatnaught. It's a simple statement. Not everything a person says is easy to put into a personality category. I had a problem with how wordy and filled with personality every response was. It felt weird to me.

I did a playthrough were a picked a different personality for every response, and Hawke sounded like a mad person. It was creepy and weird. The whole personality system just felt off to me, and I've been having trouble trying to figure out exactly why, but I think the word-i-ness of each response might have had something to do with it.

[FINE HERE]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

Name three other single player rpgs that let you customize a character; I mean REALLY customize a character, not let you pick gender and give you a few hairstyles to choose from and only yes or no questions in game. That's a very small list. You know how many games have a set character and storyline? TONS.

I don't want to play an MMO, I don't want to match my pace with other people, especially since the three times I tried to play an MMO, all that happened was some jerk killed me within the first five minutes. They're not fun to me, and they're more expensive with subscription fees. And take more time to beat with very little story.

Don't take away the customization from DA games. That makes the story much more interesting to many people. That's the reason I got into the series in the first place.

let me guess, Linage 2 or that other 100% pvp game

MMO doesn't = PvP and in most MMO's the only time you have to match pace is during raids and stuff.

Actually, never played Linage 2. It was some free to play game, I played a long time ago. Can't remember the name, but it was about Chinese mythology or something. People kept stealing my kills in WoW too, and it's not fun to have some jerks following me around asking me to 'cyber' either...   Maybe I have crappy luck with these things, but I have yet to have fun playing an MMO.

[MerinTB]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
But you know what? I really wouldn't give a **** if Bioware scrapped the "role-playing" element completely.

Honestly, Plaintiff, a statement like this seems to say you really can't be objective on this issue.

Did he ever seriously claim he was being objective as opposed to just standing on his soapbox, though?

Cause if he did...

[Volus Warlord]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Well, I was hoping we could have intelligent discussion instead of standing in our bunkers and sniping.

Dream on, son.

[Thomas Andresen]

ArcaneJTM wrote...

Money fixes everything in kirkwall. It's your mother's name that gave you the right to purchase the estate along with the deep roads treasure. How hard is it to imagine Hawke giving his mother the money and having her buy the estate? Also, it wouldn't be the first time a non-human had an estate in hightown. Bartrand, a dwarf, had an estate in hightown. Fenris, an elf, also had an estate, though admitedly he was squatting. Merrill, an elf, can also move from the alienage into your high town estate.

Simply put, you are provably wrong.

Um, no. No, no and no. If Hawke was an elf, then Hawke's mother would also have to be an elf, and would thereby not have ties to the Kirkwall nobility.

Fenris keeping the mansion is mostly about Aveline not doing her job, as a result of Fenris being a friend of Hawke, and has certainly nothing to do with any lack of bigotry.

And Bartrand? A rich dwarf from a rich family. Also, as opposed to elves, dwarves in general are actually tolerated in Hightown. Racism against dwarves isn't as prevalent as racism towards elves.

Merrill? Sure, she can move in with Hawke, because it's Hawke's mansion and no one can do anything about it short of throwing them both out. I'm pretty sure the only ones in Kirkwall that aren't happy with Merrill moving in with Hawke, aside from themselves, are Varric and Isabella.

[Nole]

The majority of the games out there have pre-designed protagonists, take your pick.

Modifié par WittingEight65, 15 mai 2013 - 04:27 .

[Enigmatick]

MerinTB wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
But you know what? I really wouldn't give a **** if Bioware scrapped the "role-playing" element completely.

Honestly, Plaintiff, a statement like this seems to say you really can't be objective on this issue.

Did he ever seriously claim he was being objective as opposed to just standing on his soapbox, though?

Cause if he did...

Pretty much all of his posts

[Plaintiff]

ArcaneJTM wrote...
Money fixes everything in kirkwall.

No it doesn't.

It's your mother's name that gave you the right to purchase the estate along with the deep roads treasure.

A name that you wouldn't have if Hawke was an elf or a dwarf.

How hard is it to imagine Hawke giving his mother the money and having her buy the estate?

Not very, but Hawke's mother is human, and so was her husband. Even then, getting the estate back was a struggle.

Also, it wouldn't be the first time a non-human had an estate in hightown.  Bartrand, a dwarf, had an estate in hightown.  Fenris, an elf, also had an estate, though admitedly he was squatting.  Merrill, an elf, can also move from the alienage into your high town estate.

Simply put, you are provably wrong.

Dwarves are not subject to the same discrimination as elves, but there are other reasons that a dwarf Hawke couldn't happen.

As you say, Fenris is living illegally, and Merril isn't the owner of Hawke's estate. Nothing is stopping her from merely living with Hawke, but she can't own Hightown property, no matter how rich she is. Elves can only live in Hightown as servants/consorts on an estate, or as prostitutes, and work like that would rather get in the way of Hawke having adventures, don't you think?

Right, and the fact that the populace is constantly commenting on you being dragonborn, being summoned by the jarls specifically because you are dragonborn, being highly regarded as a walking legend and telling everyone that you are dragonborn, not to mention the whole dragon killing and soul sucking thing in the middle of town when one attacks means absolutely nothing to you?  Everybody is really completely blind and clueless as to your identity?

They must be, or else they wouldn't arrest you for committing minor crimes, or burden you with pointless errands, or deny you aid, since that would rather get in the way of you saving the world, which they live in.

Either the people are unaware of your identity, or they know full well, and don't care if the world gets destroyed. Just face it, Skyrim's narrative and setting are not cohesive, meaning you can't roleplay properly.

Hawke is filthy rich and killed the Arishok in single combat.  Nobody gives a rat's behind that he's a frikin MAGE that has been throwing fireballs in the middle of the street for six years!  I don't think being an elf or dwarf would make that much difference.

On the contrary, Thedas has a history of allowing certain mages to live free of the Circle if they perform an exceptional service (or their family bribes the Chantry).

By comparison, notable elven figures in human history, like Shartan, or Garahel, the warden who ended the first Blight, receive little to no recognition, and have made no appreciable difference to the way elves are treated.

We know.  You've made your disdain for the RP part of RPGs quite clear.  You may as well be complaining that your car has wheels though.

I don't disdain it. I nothing it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mai 2013 - 04:44 .

[Enigmatick]

^Nothing personal to you Plantiff I just wanted get that picture out there, also your old archer avatar was better.

[ArcaneJTM]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...

Money fixes everything in kirkwall. It's your mother's name that gave you the right to purchase the estate along with the deep roads treasure. How hard is it to imagine Hawke giving his mother the money and having her buy the estate? Also, it wouldn't be the first time a non-human had an estate in hightown. Bartrand, a dwarf, had an estate in hightown. Fenris, an elf, also had an estate, though admitedly he was squatting. Merrill, an elf, can also move from the alienage into your high town estate.

Simply put, you are provably wrong.

Um, no. No, no and no. If Hawke was an elf, then Hawke's mother would also have to be an elf, and would thereby not have ties to the Kirkwall nobility.

Sorry, was working off my adoption idea from earlier.  Should have specified that.

[Plaintiff]

Enigmatick wrote...

^Nothing personal to you Plantiff I just wanted get that picture out there, also your old archer avatar was better.

Well, I would be lying if I said I didn't feel that way a lot of the time. Especially on the Bioware forums.

Kaidan is a sexy beast, and you have terrible taste.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

The easiest way to refute the idea that you can't allow the player to create her own protagonist without sacrificing the quality of the story is to list games that show otherwise.

These are all games with quality writing, at least comparable to BioWare's latest games if not better in some cases.

Fallout
Fallout 2
Fallout: New Vegas
Ultima 5
Ultima 7
Planescape: Torment
Baldur's Gate
Baldur's Gate 2
Morrowind
Neverwinter Nights
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines

And, of course, Dragon Age: Origins.

Also note that some games which start with a predetermined protagonist offer you a greater range of dialogue options and plot choices than "nice", "uninterested" or "doosh". The OP mentions the Witcher series, which I would argue lend themselves to my point because even though Geralt has a face and a backstory, they went through significant effor to allow the player to use him as a blank slate and write a wide range of character traits and motivations into the story with their own decisions. Mass Effect started out this way, but by the time DA2 and ME3 were released, the stories and freedoms had become extremely limited by comparison.

[BellPeppers&Beef023]

that internet tough guy persona not working so well after all, huh.