289 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't disdain it. I nothing it.

"I don't think there should be a neutral option. What does that even mean?"

Eh? EH?

He didn't pull a neutral option. He used an inert option.

[Volus Warlord]

EntropicAngel wrote...

TW games are not roleplaying games.

Are you going to start an argument about what is and isn't an RPG again?

[GodChildInTheMachine]

EntropicAngel wrote...

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

Also note that some games which start with a predetermined protagonist offer you a greater range of dialogue options and plot choices than "nice", "uninterested" or "doosh". The OP mentions the Witcher series, which I would argue lend themselves to my point because even though Geralt has a face and a backstory, they went through significant effor to allow the player to use him as a blank slate and write a wide range of character traits and motivations into the story with their own decisions. Mass Effect started out this way, but by the time DA2 and ME3 were released, the stories and freedoms had become extremely limited by comparison.

Story decisions--not character decisions.

You want to change your plot, good for you. I want to roleplay.

TW games are not roleplaying games.

Have you played The Witcher 2? The decisions you make are character decisions as much as they are plot devices. The character of Geralt is yours to shape, you decide what his every motivation, behavior and personality trait will be from a great range of options. Best of all, they are never contrived 'good guy' or 'bad guy' options.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't disdain it. I nothing it.

"I don't think there should be a neutral option. What does that even mean?"

Eh? EH?

I think neutral options are stupid, but I wouldn't care if the entire roleplaying aspect disappeared from Dragon Age tomorrow, as long as the protagonist wasn't an emotionless dullard.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

 Wait a second. Did you just say that The Witcher games are not RPGs? 

[Volus Warlord]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Are you going to start an argument about what is and isn't an RPG again?

Why not

Seriously. How can you roleplay in TW when you're given a set protagonist who is part of an organization that essentially defines his world-views? And besides that, the game doesn't even have dialog options--it just has investigate and yes/no.

How can you RP in Final Fantasy when you are pigeon-holed into a 100 hour corridor with cutscenes every 20 seconds? 

[ArcaneJTM]

Plaintiff wrote...

ArcaneJTM wrote...
Money fixes everything in kirkwall.

No it doesn't.

Funny, considering the entire premise of the last part of the prologue and the whole of act 1 is that it does.

Right, and the fact that the populace is constantly commenting on you being dragonborn, being summoned by the jarls specifically because you are dragonborn, being highly regarded as a walking legend and telling everyone that you are dragonborn, not to mention the whole dragon killing and soul sucking thing in the middle of town when one attacks means absolutely nothing to you?  Everybody is really completely blind and clueless as to your identity?

They must be, or else they wouldn't arrest you for committing minor crimes, or burden you with pointless errands, or deny you aid, since that would rather get in the way of you saving the world, which they live in.

EIther the people are unaware of your identity, or they know full well, and don't care if the world gets destroyed. Just face it, Skyrim's narrative and setting are not cohesive, meaning you can't roleplay properly.

Hey, you're the one that brought it up.  I'm just pointing out that it's not as disasterous as you make it out to be.

By the way, even living legends have to obey the law.  People aren't going to just let you walk around stealing everything that isn't nailed down just because your "special".  Besides, it makes the gameplay better if there are, you know, consequences for breaking the law.

Hawke is filthy rich and killed the Arishok in single combat.  Nobody gives a rat's behind that he's a frikin MAGE that has been throwing fireballs in the middle of the street for six years!  I don't think being an elf or dwarf would make that much difference.

On the contrary, Thedas has a history of allowing certain mages to live free of the Circle if they perform an exceptional service (or their family bribes the Chantry).

By comparison, notable elven figures in human history, like Shartan, or Garahel, the warden who ended the first Blight, have made no appreciable difference to the way elves are treated.

Shartan was before the exhalted march on the Dales, which had far more influence on present attitudes towards elves.  And Garahel was a Grey Warden. (who ended the fourth blight, fyi)  Grey Warden tends to trump everything else.

The chantry isn't exactly enthusiastic at the idea of giveing mages the chance to perform an exceptional service either you know.

We know.  You've made your disdain for the RP part of RPGs quite clear.  You may as well be complaining that your car has wheels though.

I don't disdain it. I nothing it.

Uh huh.  I think this one speaks for itself.  <_<

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I think neutral options are stupid, but I wouldn't care if the entire roleplaying aspect disappeared from Dragon Age tomorrow, as long as the protagonist wasn't an emotionless dullard.

I don't know if you're missing the point or just ignoring it, but I'm pointing out that you just used a neutral option. If you use it, there's no reason to call it "stupid" for a character that you might create.

Real people can be neutral, characters can't, at least not for long. A story requires the protagonist to be motivated in order to act.

[MerinTB]

EntropicAngel wrote...
TW games are not roleplaying games.

For someone who just recently admitted that you didn't even know what roleplaying was until joining the BSN, I'd be careful about throwing out definitive statements about what does and does not qualify as a role-playing game.

A game with a pre-defined character CAN be a role-playing game.  Most cRPGs that let you make your own character (or party) come with default pre-builts to choose.  Almost all tabletop role-playing games allow you to play pre-established characters (Buffy, Serenity, MSHRPG, Mayfair's DC, Robotech, Supernatural, BSG, Smallville, heck even D&D!)

More than that, though, role-playing doesn't necessitate you making an original character to role-play.  You can be assigned a role to play.  Which includes Hawke, Shepard and, yes, Geralt.

Being given a character doesn't mean the game isn't a role-playing one.

EntropicAngel wrote...
You don't. The characters are set. The FF games aren't RPGs.

Again, set characters do not disqualify.  You are, again, the self-admitted noob. 

Now, whether Final Fantasy games qualify as role-playing games is a tricky question.  And probably well outside the topic of this thread.

---

To be honest, I vastly prefer to make my own character.  But preference isn't what defines something.  Opinion isn't fact.

Modifié par MerinTB, 15 mai 2013 - 05:05 .

[Volus Warlord]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

 Wait a second. Did you just say that The Witcher games are not RPGs? 

EA thinks RPGs are games that abide by a set of conflicting rules to create an environment that is impossible (and therefore non-existant) to create an environment that is not a shooter, action adventure, or anything like that.

HONESTLY EA,

There is no rigorous definition of an RPG.

I repeat:

There is no rigorous defintion of an RPG.

As there is no rigorous, absolute defintion, if the developer calls it an RPG, its an RPG. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter if the game is about faction politics or marching into the woods to hump deer. If the developer says it's an RPG, it's an RPG.

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 15 mai 2013 - 05:09 .

[Volus Warlord]

EntropicAngel wrote...
I'm comfortable doing it because I've realized what it means. I've seen nothing to disprove my opinion.

I should, of course, be putting IMO at the end of all my posts. I think there's a signature somewhere here on BSN saying that we should read every post with an IMO at the end of it.


But it's very clear to me--you can't define your character in TW. As such, it does not qualify as an RPG. The problem with Geralt is that you can't actually define him outside of these broad, meaningless strokes like a Bethesda game. You sided with the elves--what does this tell me about you? Almost nothing, because there are a nearly infinite number of reasons to do so. Bioware games are much smaller with far more interpersonal affairs--this is where character definition happens.

So Bioware games are RPGs, but nothing else is?

[Plaintiff]

ArcaneJTM wrote...
Funny, considering the entire premise of the last part of the prologue and the whole of act 1 is that it does.

Only because the family has the privilege of being human. If they were elves or dwarves, they would have no claim to the Amell estate in the first place, and no amount of money would help them get it.

The whole reason the Hawke family goes to Kirkwall in the first place is because they believe they have family and a comfortable home there. Even if there were any dwarves or elves living in Lothering, they'd have gone somewhere else, maybe Orzammar, or Denerim.

Hey, you're the one that brought it up.  I'm just pointing out that it's not as disasterous as you make it out to be.

By the way, even living legends have to obey the law.  People aren't going to just let you walk around stealing everything that isn't nailed down just because your "special".  Besides, it makes the gameplay better if there are, you know, consequences for breaking the law.

Then they mustn't realize that the world is going to be destroyed. Shouldn't that take precedence?

Shartan was before the exhalted march on the Dales, which had far more influence on present attitudes towards elves.  And Garahel was a Grey Warden. (who ended the fourth blight, fyi)  Grey Warden tends to trump everything else.

The chantry isn't exactly enthusiastic at the idea of giveing mages the chance to perform an exceptional service either you know.

First, fourth, whatever. I knew it started with an F.

The Chantry has accepted bribes in exchange for granting certain freedoms to high-born mages, though.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

 I'd say that around half of the all of the Western RPGs created in history have predefined protagonists, and the vast majority of JRPGs do. 

You could argue whether some of those games really qualify as RPGs - I would argue that FF13 and even ME3 are skirting the line of being simple action games. Still, you can't dismiss all of them. Especially The Witcher 2, which is considered to be one of the greatest RPGs of this generation by a virtual consensus. 
But what do I know, I didn't find out what an RPG was until around 1991. 

Modifié par GodChildInTheMachine, 15 mai 2013 - 05:16 .

[MerinTB]

EntropicAngel wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

For someone who just recently admitted that you didn't even know what roleplaying was until joining the BSN, I'd be careful about throwing out definitive statements about what does and does not qualify as a role-playing game.

A game with a pre-defined character CAN be a role-playing game.  Most cRPGs that let you make your own character (or party) come with default pre-builts to choose.  Almost all tabletop role-playing games allow you to play pre-established characters (Buffy, Serenity, MSHRPG, Mayfair's DC, Robotech, Supernatural, BSG, Smallville, heck even D&D!)

More than that, though, role-playing doesn't necessitate you making an original character to role-play.  You can be assigned a role to play.  Which includes Hawke, Shepard and, yes, Geralt.

Being given a character doesn't mean the game isn't a role-playing one.

I'm comfortable doing it because I've realized what it means. I've seen nothing to disprove my opinion.

But it's very clear to me--you can't define your character in TW. As such, it does not qualify as an RPG. The problem with Geralt is that you can't actually define him outside of these broad, meaningless strokes like a Bethesda game. You sided with the elves--what does this tell me about you? Almost nothing, because there are a nearly infinite number of reasons to do so. Bioware games are much smaller with far more interpersonal affairs--this is where character definition happens.

Role-playing ISN'T defining a character.

I'm not going to touch "what is a role-playing game" because that way leads to madness, especially on BSN.

But I will vigorously correct you on your fresh and inaccurate understanding of what it is to play a role.

You've seen nothing to disprove your opinion?  How about established definitions:

Free Dictionary - 
role play: To assume or represent in a drama; act out; To assume or act out a particular role
Dictionary.com -
role play: to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another),especially in a make-believe situation in an effort to understanda differing point of view or social interaction; to experiment with or
experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role
MacMillan Dictionary -
role-play: an activity in which you pretend to be someone else, especially in order to learn newskills or attitudes
Merriam-Webster -
role-play: to act out the role of;to represent in action; to play a role

Nowhere is the definition of role-playing require the role-player to create a new character.  Mostly role-playing is used to help someone understand another person.

Until you can accept that this is the antecedent, the root, the core origin, of a role-playing game, you cannot begin to try and define what IS or IS NOT an rpg.

Modifié par MerinTB, 15 mai 2013 - 05:30 .

[Volus Warlord]

EntropicAngel wrote...
I'm going to define my definition of RPG in a moment, but your explanation is painful, honestly painful. Someone saying something does NOT make it reality. Life doesn't work that way, and I don't see any valid reason why arbitrary definitions should work that way. If a word doesn't have a definition, it is nothing. Worthless. It has no purpose. The intrinsic purpose of words is to give definition to things, concepts.


My definition of an RPG is a game where you define your character. Now, I will note here that I'm engaging in some hyperbole in calling TW not an RPG: I would actually term it a lite RPG, along with the TES games, because the choices in the game (and plot choices in general) are only very vaguely character defining.

I'm also willing to be a bit more lenient and let in another type of RPG, called a Combat RPG--games that use traditional, turn combat system with inventories and such. But this is more of a concession than anything else.

I don't care if it's painful. It's accurate. I value accuracy over desirability.

The reason I say there is no rigorous definition of an RPG is because NO ONE CAN AGREE ON ONE. No one can make up there damn mind about what it is or isn't. Apparently.

Skyrim is an RPG. Oh wait, no it's not.

The Witcher is an RPG. Oh wait, no it's not. 

What makes an RPG an RPG?

Is it an inventory system? Some people think so. Some don't.

Is it customizable characters? Some people think so. Some don't.

Is it heavy emphasis on storytelling and dialogue? Some people think so. Some don't.

Is it a leveling system, or a similar form of character gameplay progression? Some people think so. Some don't.

So, as no one can make up their damn mind about what is and is not an RPG, I say it's up to the developer. There are definitions, but there are apparently numerous conflicting defintions. As the definitions are both numerous and conflicting, I say all those defintions are useless on that basis. So, rather than arbitrary line toss-ups, I say it's the developer's call. 

High school relationship simulator? Is that what you think an RPG must be?

[MerinTB]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
So Bioware games are RPGs, but nothing else is?

Well I admit I'm engaging in hyperbole, which I should not be doing. But what other games truly let you define your protagonist? How they act in certain situations? How these different actions combine in a mosaic to form the gestalt image of your character?

Off the top of my head?

Wasteland, Blade Runner, Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol, Neverwinter Nights 2, Fallout 1-3 +  New Vegas, Arcanum: Of Steamworks & Magick Obscura, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale 1 & 2, all the TES games, Alternate Reality The City+The Dungeon... 

I know Fallout 3, New Vegas, Elder Scrolls and the IWD's will fail in your estimation, hard, because of other things you have said in the past.  But I stand by them.

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...
But what do I know, I didn't find out what an RPG was until around 1991. 

Yeah, I'm probably more clueless having played my first session of D&D back in like 1983.