94 réponses à ce sujet

[Caldari Ghost]

Mumba1511 wrote...

GI.

NO. HE'S THE MOST EFECTIVE WEAOPNZ, BUT THE HARDEST TO MASTER. ONLY GODS CAN USE HIM.

[Caldari Ghost]

Knockingbr4in wrote...

Human Adept.

.....and vanilla engineer both deserve a tier-1 candidacy.

[The Package]

All the Asari kits are very well designed with powers that complement each other (even if vanilla AA doesn't look so hot nowadays and the Huntress was a lucky mistake).

Also: Fury, Paladin, KroSol, Collector, SI, VorchaSent

[d_nought]

tyhw wrote...

BatSol...inferno skill ftw.  Blindly chuck in the direction of the spawn, watch as everything burns to death.  But I do like his power set, and find him fun to play.

I did have the GE listed in my honorable mention in my head, but I think I forgot to type it in.  Don't have a lot of experience with the Cabal though, I didn't find it all that enjoyable, so I didn't put it in.

Cabal really goes well with an ultra aggressive power usage mook nuker, like the Slayer or Fury, with the same deal of bosses dying slowly. Unfortunately, I don't think the overall power is as much as the Slayer or Fury, but I've really been trying to figure it out.

One thing I've been meaning to ask you is about Incendiary Ammo proc. Fire Explosion cooldowns. Sirian told me that apparently you can only detonate one FE on a target from Inc. Ammo, which seems odd. If it's true though, I might switch to Disruptor with Double Dash to quickly pull off three Tech Bursts and get an edge over an FE.

[Caldari Ghost]

d_nought wrote...

tyhw wrote...

BatSol...inferno skill ftw.  Blindly chuck in the direction of the spawn, watch as everything burns to death.  But I do like his power set, and find him fun to play.

I did have the GE listed in my honorable mention in my head, but I think I forgot to type it in.  Don't have a lot of experience with the Cabal though, I didn't find it all that enjoyable, so I didn't put it in.

Cabal really goes well with an ultra aggressive power usage mook nuker, like the Slayer or Fury, with the same deal of bosses dying slowly. Unfortunately, I don't think the overall power is as much as the Slayer or Fury, but I've really been trying to figure it out.

One thing I've been meaning to ask you is about Incendiary Ammo proc. Fire Explosion cooldowns. Sirian told me that apparently you can only detonate one FE on a target from Inc. Ammo, which seems odd. If it's true though, I might switch to Disruptor with Double Dash to quickly pull off three Tech Bursts and get an edge over an FE.

haven't you ever shot at a target with a large-clip weapon on incendiary, spamming  a detonator and only getting one FE?

Modifié par Caldari Ghost, 14 mai 2013 - 10:49 .

[Fortack]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Is making a really, really strong kit good design or bad design?

I would put it a little differently. Is creating a kit for a co op game that doesn't require any form of teamwork a good or bad idea?

[stysiaq]

tyhw wrote...

stysiaq wrote...

Oh, and as for the Vanguards, I think only Asari is well designed. All the others basically have 1 power to skip as a no-brainer.

Interesting list, I can see your reasoning for most.  In particular, I do think the volus merc has a good design, its powers are just too crappy... 

I share your view on the Volus Merc. I like playing this class very much, because it requires you to squeeze everything you can from his crappy powers. The design is good, but as powers that distract enemies don't kill them, he will always be the worst character in the game, damage-wise.

I am interested in why you find the krogan adept, vorcha soldier, and batarian sentinel to be well designed though.

Krogan Adept: various interesting builds, ragdolling fun. Can be played as a tanky debuffer, Barrier detonations don't get old, Warp + Wave, Barrier + Wave, Barrier + Warp combos, very fun kit to use the Batarian Gauntlet.

Batarian Sentinel: mixes tech and biotics, Submission Net is a well designed power that (unfortunately) suffers from poor tracking and speed, but it's a spot-on in terms of catching the general idea of Batarians as slavers re-purposing their tools for warfare. Shockwave synergises with melee build (stagger lets you survive during the animation, with a bonus feature of hatesurfing)

Vorcha Soldier: I back away from this one. Vorchas aren't well designed, because Bloodlust should not be a power, but a part of Fitness. Or even something that doesn't require ANY points to work, not even in Fitness (provided that the Fitness would boost this mechanic).

But when looking over the fact that Bloodlust is there, the Vorcha Soldier is a good example of implementing lore into the MP, and it appeals to me. When I think of Vorchas, I think of savage beasts. And what is more crude (yet effective) than a flamethrower? What is a more fitting projectile power than enemy-gibbing Carnage (which sucks balls, but it looks awesome to me)?

The Sentinel doesn't cut it, because he uses one of the laziest intelectual shortcuts ("biotic grenades"), and since FE redesign, he is made of cheese. An Engineer doesn't cut it, because it messes up my idea of Vorchas being... well, stupid.

Also, even the Asari imo has a no brainer skip.  Stasis doesn't freeze anything that charge doesn't stagger...

My point was more that the vanguards tend to be fun to use with pretty good synergy between the 2 powers that they actually use.  And that they are fun to use kits which imo are generally well designed, with a purpose.

I actually don't think I spec into the 3rd power on any vanguard, except the volus.

Stasis opens the door to anothers forms of AV gameplay, for example for the players like me who sometimes hesitate to charge or just can't aim for the head all that well. Stasis sniping with AV instead of going for Lift Grenades spawn nuking isn't as much of a slide as picking Shockwave instead of Nova on the HVan.

Well, I think I don't make much sense, do I. But the point that I'm trying to make is that you can take points in Stasis on AV and feel it's useful (for example going for 'gambling' evos on both Charge and Stasis and trying the non-cooldown rampage that include BEs), whereas on the Slayer any points in Slash or Shockwave on HVan just slow you down on top of making you being made fun of on the BSN.

[HolyAvenger]

Fortack wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Is making a really, really strong kit good design or bad design?

I would put it a little differently. Is creating a kit for a co op game that doesn't require any form of teamwork a good or bad idea?

 

Ahh but this while topic is about kits that have such synergy in their powers they don't need teammates. And then defining them as good.

I don't agree with that fundamental assumption at all, you are correct. But I was positing a question within the bounds of it.

The GI is a fantastic example of a kit with three great powers that is terribly designed IMO:mellow:

[d_nought]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

d_nought wrote...

tyhw wrote...

BatSol...inferno skill ftw.  Blindly chuck in the direction of the spawn, watch as everything burns to death.  But I do like his power set, and find him fun to play.

I did have the GE listed in my honorable mention in my head, but I think I forgot to type it in.  Don't have a lot of experience with the Cabal though, I didn't find it all that enjoyable, so I didn't put it in.

Cabal really goes well with an ultra aggressive power usage mook nuker, like the Slayer or Fury, with the same deal of bosses dying slowly. Unfortunately, I don't think the overall power is as much as the Slayer or Fury, but I've really been trying to figure it out.

One thing I've been meaning to ask you is about Incendiary Ammo proc. Fire Explosion cooldowns. Sirian told me that apparently you can only detonate one FE on a target from Inc. Ammo, which seems odd. If it's true though, I might switch to Disruptor with Double Dash to quickly pull off three Tech Bursts and get an edge over an FE.

haven't you ever shot at a target with a large-clip weapon on incendiary, spamming  a detonator and only getting one FE?

I never really noticed it, nor bothered to look it up. But here it is in detail, in case anyone else wants to know:

i) Triggering an FE with ammo means you can't trigger another one until all of the incendiary DoT is finished, which is 3 seconds after the last shot. FE -> wait less than 3 seconds -> shoot -> "detonate" = no explosion.

ii) Waiting it out for another explosion means that all future inc. ammo DoT ticks will be zero.

[UnknownMercenary]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fortack wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Is making a really, really strong kit good design or bad design?

I would put it a little differently. Is creating a kit for a co op game that doesn't require any form of teamwork a good or bad idea?

 

Ahh but this while topic is about kits that have such synergy in their powers they don't need teammates. And then defining them as good.

I don't agree with that fundamental assumption at all, you are correct. But I was positing a question within the bounds of it.

The GI is a fantastic example of a kit with three great powers that is terribly designed IMO:mellow:

Depends on how you define "terribly designed". IMO a bad design is a kit with a power that obviously should be skipped. Of course not everybody will agree that power SHOULD be ditched but when a majority of people find it useless, then something went wrong.

[Chealec]

Krogan Soldier - you can't go wrong with Inferno Grenades + Carnage... and then throw on extra tankiness and an extra 30% power damage bonus from Fortification! lulwut!

Turian Sentinel - he's a friend to everybody!

Collector Adept - it's an Adept you can either go completely Biotic or almost completely Soldier or a bit of both; from kinda tanky to kinda squishy. A good varied kit.

Drell Adept - with great power comes ... insane speed and paper-thin shielding.

Human Engineer - any kit with both Incinerate and Overload is always going to be good.

Quarian Female Engineer - since they sorted out Cryo Blast she's a lovely kit; a song of ice and fire

Quarian Male Engineer - Incinerate and Arc Grenades! Throw on a Scorpion or Falcon and you've got a crowd-control master. TacScan to debuff the bosses as well.

Batarian Brawler - sticking the Falcon Punch on the end of a Biotic Charge was an idea of pure, evil genius.

Quarian Female Infiltrator - she used to be my go-to kit back in the day and whilst she's no GI in terms of pure DPS she's got some pleasing synergy with Sabotage and Sticky Grenades or, indeed, Sabotage and a Javelin for those of us who can't snapfire it like Jay Hoxtatron. The Tech Vulnerability debuff is nice when playing with Engineers as well.

[HolyAvenger]

 

UnknownMercenary wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fortack wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Is making a really, really strong kit good design or bad design?

I would put it a little differently. Is creating a kit for a co op game that doesn't require any form of teamwork a good or bad idea?

 

Ahh but this while topic is about kits that have such synergy in their powers they don't need teammates. And then defining them as good.

I don't agree with that fundamental assumption at all, you are correct. But I was positing a question within the bounds of it.

The GI is a fantastic example of a kit with three great powers that is terribly designed IMO:mellow:

Depends on how you define "terribly designed". IMO a bad design is a kit with a power that obviously should be skipped. Of course not everybody will agree that power SHOULD be ditched but when a majority of people find it useless, then something went wrong.
 

 

Of course a lack of synergy, or a power that is obvious ot skip is terrible design

So is a kit with so much synergy between it's powers it dwarfs and leaves it's counterparts in the dust. 

[Fortack]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fortack wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Is making a really, really strong kit good design or bad design?

I would put it a little differently. Is creating a kit for a co op game that doesn't require any form of teamwork a good or bad idea?

 

Ahh but this while topic is about kits that have such synergy in their powers they don't need teammates. And then defining them as good.

I don't agree with that fundamental assumption at all, you are correct. But I was positing a question within the bounds of it.

The GI is a fantastic example of a kit with three great powers that is terribly designed IMO:mellow:

Yeah, that's basically my point. The GI (and an awful lot of other kits for that matter) are designed for SP instead of team-based MP. All kits that don't get a lot better when working in tandem with their teammates are poorly designed by definition as far as co op games are concerned.

[stysiaq]

For me, when a kit has a power that is an instant 6 points, like Arc/Cluster Grenades, the design is equally bad.

[FasterThanFTL]

N7 Fury
N7 Destroyer
Talon Mercenary
N7 Paladin
Turian Ghost
Asari Vanguard

Modifié par FasterThanFTL, 14 mai 2013 - 12:05 .

[UnknownMercenary]

Fortack wrote...

Yeah, that's basically my point. The GI (and an awful lot of other kits for that matter) are designed for SP instead of team-based MP. All kits that don't get a lot better when working in tandem with their teammates are poorly designed by definition as far as co op games are concerned.

This is why the Turian Sentinel is the most well designed character in the game.

stysiaq wrote...

For me, when a kit has a power that is an instant 6 points, like Arc/Cluster Grenades, the design is equally bad.

I can think of very few classes that don't have a power that I instantly put 6 points in.

[Chealec]

Fortack wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fortack wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Is making a really, really strong kit good design or bad design?

I would put it a little differently. Is creating a kit for a co op game that doesn't require any form of teamwork a good or bad idea?

 

Ahh but this while topic is about kits that have such synergy in their powers they don't need teammates. And then defining them as good.

I don't agree with that fundamental assumption at all, you are correct. But I was positing a question within the bounds of it.

The GI is a fantastic example of a kit with three great powers that is terribly designed IMO:mellow:

Yeah, that's basically my point. The GI (and an awful lot of other kits for that matter) are designed for SP instead of team-based MP. All kits that don't get a lot better when working in tandem with their teammates are poorly designed by definition as far as co op games are concerned.

... doesn't that kinda mean that the best designed kits are the Quarians? Every single one has a debuff power that benefits the team, whether that's TacScan, Sabotage (in a Tech team) or Cryo Blast.

And weirdly the Volus Adept too (debuff Orbs) - although Biotics in general work better in teams than perhaps any other classes (N7 Paladin / AIU with Snap Freeze being exceptions to that in a Tech team).

[cgj]

n7 paladin
human adept
human soldier
human engineer
gethneer
volusneer
tsent

and i probably forgot many

Modifié par cgj, 14 mai 2013 - 12:15 .

[stysiaq]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

stysiaq wrote...

For me, when a kit has a power that is an instant 6 points, like Arc/Cluster Grenades, the design is equally bad.

I can think of very few classes that don't have a power that I instantly put 6 points in.

Maybe I was too general, but if I posted a HFA build that skips Warp, Singularity or Shockwave I'd get less bashing than if I posted a QME build that skips Arc Grenades or a Clusterless anything.

[The-Fantasm]

Fury
Geth Trooper
Batarian Solider
Krogan Solider

Modifié par The-Fantasm, 14 mai 2013 - 12:27 .

[HolyAvenger]

stysiaq wrote...

UnknownMercenary wrote...

stysiaq wrote...

For me, when a kit has a power that is an instant 6 points, like Arc/Cluster Grenades, the design is equally bad.

I can think of very few classes that don't have a power that I instantly put 6 points in.

Maybe I was too general, but if I posted a HFA build that skips Warp, Singularity or Shockwave I'd get less bashing than if I posted a QME build that skips Arc Grenades or a Clusterless anything.

 

Grenades Cap have turned all grenade kits into a joke.

Now I purposefully spec out of some grenade powers so I'm not just running grenade spam with half the kits in the game. 

[longgamma]

The Turian soldier makes many weapons ridiculously powerful. Also the drell guard, awesome damage potential.

[MP-Ryan]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

This is why the Turian Sentinel is the most well designed character in the game.

I'm inclined to agree.  It's one of the only kits that is playable in a solo environment, shines in a team environment, and has substantial build versatility.  I can't think of another that does all of those things.

The trouble with the characters in ME3MP is that they are largely single-build.  There are obvious choices as to what build works best for each character, and that's bad design.

Actually, there's another interesting case here:  the Kroguard.  While most people agree that Carnage is utterly useless on the Kroguard, there is some substantial build versatility in the other powers - you can turn him into a melee machine, or a biotic tank.

This is why I think any future M MP installments should allow you to max the powers, BUT focus the evolutions on making each evo substantially different from the other, while equally viable from a pros/cons perspective.  Right now, how many powers are there that can really be specced differently?  Not many.  There are evolutions that are totally outclassed by their alternatives, and that is bad design.

[Carnagedude504]

Volus Mercenary isn't too bad. All his powers make him very good as a distraction. Set enemies up on a decoy, drop a drone, shoot them, shields, repeat.

[Fortack]

Chealec wrote...

... doesn't that kinda mean that the best designed kits are the Quarians? Every single one has a debuff power that benefits the team, whether that's TacScan, Sabotage (in a Tech team) or Cryo Blast.

And weirdly the Volus Adept too (debuff Orbs) - although Biotics in general work better in teams than perhaps any other classes (N7 Paladin / AIU with Snap Freeze being exceptions to that in a Tech team).

Yeah, that's the idea. Ideally, two teammates working together should greatly outperform the sum of their individual parts. Unfortunately, this game lacks true specialists. I mean, why would a GI bother teaming up with someone who has a debuff when it can kill everything equally fast without their help?

The real issue is more related to how BW designed powers. Most stuff is still very good in non-ideal circumstances. IMO it's quite silly that biotic characters usually don't like having someone with Overload on their team b/c, instead of assisting them to handle shield (the supposedly major weakness of biotics), it only messes up their explosions thus reducing their combat effectiveness.