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[Maria13]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Um.. maybe in fanfic. No codex entries or even gossip to back that up.

I think there maybe actually,  I recall reading something along those lines on the forum here.  

[Maria13]

Anyway, anyone read "I Claudius"? Cailan may have started out as a glory hound but has began to realise how hemmed in he is by Logain and his daughter. So, strictly under wraps, he's seeking new allies to break free: the Orlesian empress and the Grey Wardens while officially up front he's keeping up the glory hound/callow youth appearance.



From that point of view, Alistair is a pawn, both in terms a concession to Duncan and perhaps someone to be tapped into as a resource in the future (a spy in the rank of the wardens? a future head of the wardens?).



In support of this, of the little we see of it, Cailan's decision making appears to be extremely prudent: He does not see the darkspawn as a blight because he has no evidence for it, he does not take Duncan at his word, nevertheless he leaves the door open on that possibility; he does not provide immediate revenge for the human noble ("after we've dealt with the darkspawn" which may be code for: "I'll have to review how that fits into my strategy"); he immediately sends Alistair to the tower, protect my blood/or my future investment.



But the strategy is risky and he knows he is up against a master in Logain so he is playing everything extremely cautiously. I think to some extent, Duncan is aware of what is going on, but, apart from the fact that he likes Cailan, he is happy to play along for the time being because it is good for the GWs and also for tackling this blight. Duncan too is astute and may well be wise to Cailan's game, we see him rebuking Alistair for getting people's backs up unnecessarily in camp and ordering him to the tower.

[Carodej]

Maria13 wrote...

Anyway, anyone read "I Claudius"? Cailan may have started out as a glory hound but has began to realise how hemmed in he is by Logain and his daughter. So, strictly under wraps, he's seeking new allies to break free: the Orlesian empress and the Grey Wardens while officially up front he's keeping up the glory hound/callow youth appearance.

From that point of view, Alistair is a pawn, both in terms a concession to Duncan and perhaps someone to be tapped into as a resource in the future (a spy in the rank of the wardens? a future head of the wardens?).

In support of this, of the little we see of it, Cailan's decision making appears to be extremely prudent: He does not see the darkspawn as a blight because he has no evidence for it, he does not take Duncan at his word, nevertheless he leaves the door open on that possibility; he does not provide immediate revenge for the human noble ("after we've dealt with the darkspawn" which may be code for: "I'll have to review how that fits into my strategy"); he immediately sends Alistair to the tower, protect my blood/or my future investment.

But the strategy is risky and he knows he is up against a master in Logain so he is playing everything extremely cautiously. I think to some extent, Duncan is aware of what is going on, but, apart from the fact that he likes Cailan, he is happy to play along for the time being because it is good for the GWs and also for tackling this blight. Duncan too is astute and may well be wise to Cailan's game, we see him rebuking Alistair for getting people's backs up unnecessarily in camp and ordering him to the tower.

You make some good points, but I still have trouble with your arguments.  I've probably played through Ostagar 20 times or so.  I've tried various branches of he dialog, watched Cailan's expressions closely as he talked, etc.  He could merely be a great actor, but if he was then with such intelligence he would have to have to be able to play such a deep game as you are suggesting make me wonder how he let himself get maneuvered into his current position.  Why has he been letting Anora do the real ruling for the last 5 years?  If he's Loghain's intellectual equal, why has he needed Loghain to make these battle plans?  (He surely would have had plenty of chance to be schooled in battle tactics and strategy before he became king.)  If Cailan recognizes Loghain as some sort of an opponent, why does he go along with a battle plan that so obviously leaves him in a position to be killed?

[devilsgrin]

Carodej wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Anyway, anyone read "I Claudius"? Cailan may have started out as a glory hound but has began to realise how hemmed in he is by Logain and his daughter. So, strictly under wraps, he's seeking new allies to break free: the Orlesian empress and the Grey Wardens while officially up front he's keeping up the glory hound/callow youth appearance.

From that point of view, Alistair is a pawn, both in terms a concession to Duncan and perhaps someone to be tapped into as a resource in the future (a spy in the rank of the wardens? a future head of the wardens?).

In support of this, of the little we see of it, Cailan's decision making appears to be extremely prudent: He does not see the darkspawn as a blight because he has no evidence for it, he does not take Duncan at his word, nevertheless he leaves the door open on that possibility; he does not provide immediate revenge for the human noble ("after we've dealt with the darkspawn" which may be code for: "I'll have to review how that fits into my strategy"); he immediately sends Alistair to the tower, protect my blood/or my future investment.

But the strategy is risky and he knows he is up against a master in Logain so he is playing everything extremely cautiously. I think to some extent, Duncan is aware of what is going on, but, apart from the fact that he likes Cailan, he is happy to play along for the time being because it is good for the GWs and also for tackling this blight. Duncan too is astute and may well be wise to Cailan's game, we see him rebuking Alistair for getting people's backs up unnecessarily in camp and ordering him to the tower.

You make some good points, but I still have trouble with your arguments.  I've probably played through Ostagar 20 times or so.  I've tried various branches of he dialog, watched Cailan's expressions closely as he talked, etc.  He could merely be a great actor, but if he was then with such intelligence he would have to have to be able to play such a deep game as you are suggesting make me wonder how he let himself get maneuvered into his current position.  Why has he been letting Anora do the real ruling for the last 5 years?  If he's Loghain's intellectual equal, why has he needed Loghain to make these battle plans?  (He surely would have had plenty of chance to be schooled in battle tactics and strategy before he became king.)  If Cailan recognizes Loghain as some sort of an opponent, why does he go along with a battle plan that so obviously leaves him in a position to be killed?

to be fair to Cailan, Loghain is a living legend in Ferelden... and every Fereldan man and woman knows that it was Loghain's tactical brilliance that freed the kingdom for Orlesian occupation. Cailan may indeed not be as intelligent as Loghain... or he may be, but his intellect could be focussed on other matters - foreign policy for instance (particularly with Orlais), rather than strategy and tactics... which lets be honest, with Loghain around, and apparently loyal, why would he need such a comprehensive education in the subject?
Cailan was raised, then crowned its king in a Ferelden, that was greatly under the shadow of titans. Maric, the King who fought off Orlais, Loghain the Legend who guided them to independence and freedom. Cailan would have had to play a very subtle game indeed to not have Loghain turn against him earlier. the fact that Loghain clearly used Anora to make an even bigger play towards the throne ( i mean marrying her one month after his coronation... she'd had him wrapped around her finger for years - certainly at her father's suggestion) makes it clear (in hindsight at least) that power was on his mind. And had been from the very beginning... and of course, he is especially volatile in any matter that involded Orlais.
I imagine Anora's rule over the kingdom for these past 5 years would be the result of Cailan's disinterest in doing so, not a lack of ability, coupled perhaps with his secret plans regarding the Orlesian Empress occupying his attentions...if your going to take on a legend, you need to be especially careful. it seems he may not have been careful enough, or at least the "threat" of inviting Orlesian chevalier into Ferelden after so recently booting them out was enough to send Loghain over the edge. 
Cailan, of course, also does not suspect treachery from his family's closest ally. he may wish to be free of his influence, but no-one would have ever suspected Loghain of betraying the son of the man who'd raised him literally from dirt to the 3rd most powerful noble in Ferelden (2nd once you arrive in Ostagar,  Most powerful after the battle). Court politics are one thing, treason is another entirely.

Modifié par devilsgrin, 17 janvier 2010 - 10:45 .

[legbamel]

Maria13 wrote...

Cailan was astutely protecting his bloodline.

As for the childlessness isn't it the case that Anora's gay?

She's not gay, she's frigid.  What kind of "great ruler" doesn't even consider nailing down her power by having an heir?  And yet she never even considers marrying and never has a kid.  What sort of civil war will happen when she dies, since there is no one poised to take the throne?

[Sialater]

Well, despite NPC's comments, I've seen no evidence Anora's a "great ruler."

[legbamel]

Nor have I. Competent enough to keep things on an even keel, perhaps, but all I see is a manipulative **** who learned her ways from her dad.

[SarEnyaDor]

Maria13 wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Um.. maybe in fanfic. No codex entries or even gossip to back that up.

I think there maybe actually,  I recall reading something along those lines on the forum here.  

LOL.

LOTS of things are said on the forums. I've read that Alistair is gay on the forums, too... Heck, I'm hard pressed to remember who HASN'T been speculated about being gay on these forums....

I've played the game alot, read all the codex entries, read both books there is nothing saying she is gay - there is nothing saying she ISN'T but just because I haven't said I'm not gay doesn't make me gay.

There has been lots of speculation about Anora being frigid and possibly barren in the forums and that *IS* hinted at in game.

Even if she WAS gay, she would certainly have had a child to secure her position if she could have had one being as politically astute as she is. That whole "line of Calenhad must be preserved" stuff combined with securing her power base - she would have be untouchable had she had a child.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:42 .

[Maria13]

legbamel wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Cailan was astutely protecting his bloodline.

As for the childlessness isn't it the case that Anora's gay?

She's not gay, she's frigid.  What kind of "great ruler" doesn't even consider nailing down her power by having an heir?  And yet she never even considers marrying and never has a kid.  What sort of civil war will happen when she dies, since there is no one poised to take the throne?

Elizabeth Tudor???

[Sylrien]

Elizabeth the 1st is an excellent example, however you realize that 1. She never married, and this was a part of her success, and 2. Barely. Just barely.



Anyways, back to the topic, I"m glad to see this has caused so much discussion. I'm in the camp that the Mac Tir/THeirin couple is a fantastic PR, given what Loghain has done. I don't think Cailan could ever be in a position to ever really speak out against Loghain and...well, you know. What other people have said. But RtO proves that Cailan was looking to other sources beyond Ferelden, which to me implies a lack of trust in Loghain. And if they were indeed arguing about the queen....



Rock on, folks. Rock on

[Vicious]

Anora did all the work, so when Cailan would try to get her clothes off and she'd respond with 'i'm too tired/busy/etc' he'd go straight for The Pearl and get someone else. Of course Anora found out, and was so pissed off she cut him off completely. Thus Cailan left even more often and unsurprisingly no heir was ever produced. He probably has a bunch of little Cailans running around, however.



Then RtO reveals he was dallying with the queen of Orlais, not exactly in his age group, which would result in Ferelden becoming part of Orlais and he getting to prance around in his prissy 'IM THE KING' armor and be called 'emperor' and finally one-up his old man [in his mind]. and Arl Eamon was egging him on since he unsurprisingly had no heir and Anora's biological clock was ticking.



So you can't really blame Anora for much. I'd say she did pretty well for all the people scheming against her, and who she was married to.

[beelzeybob]

Pre-Landsmeet Anora says that Cailan was always trying to keep Alistair out of court matters as well (Replaying game)



...Just some food for thought.

[Ulicus]

Maria13 wrote...

Anyway, anyone read "I Claudius"? Cailan may have started out as a glory hound but has began to realise how hemmed in he is by Logain and his daughter. So, strictly under wraps, he's seeking new allies to break free: the Orlesian empress and the Grey Wardens while officially up front he's keeping up the glory hound/callow youth appearance.

From that point of view, Alistair is a pawn, both in terms a concession to Duncan and perhaps someone to be tapped into as a resource in the future (a spy in the rank of the wardens? a future head of the wardens?).

In support of this, of the little we see of it, Cailan's decision making appears to be extremely prudent: He does not see the darkspawn as a blight because he has no evidence for it, he does not take Duncan at his word, nevertheless he leaves the door open on that possibility; he does not provide immediate revenge for the human noble ("after we've dealt with the darkspawn" which may be code for: "I'll have to review how that fits into my strategy"); he immediately sends Alistair to the tower, protect my blood/or my future investment.

But the strategy is risky and he knows he is up against a master in Logain so he is playing everything extremely cautiously. I think to some extent, Duncan is aware of what is going on, but, apart from the fact that he likes Cailan, he is happy to play along for the time being because it is good for the GWs and also for tackling this blight. Duncan too is astute and may well be wise to Cailan's game, we see him rebuking Alistair for getting people's backs up unnecessarily in camp and ordering him to the tower.

I really like the way you think.

[Maria13]

Ulicus wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Anyway, anyone read "I Claudius"? Cailan may have started out as a glory hound but has began to realise how hemmed in he is by Logain and his daughter. So, strictly under wraps, he's seeking new allies to break free: the Orlesian empress and the Grey Wardens while officially up front he's keeping up the glory hound/callow youth appearance.

From that point of view, Alistair is a pawn, both in terms a concession to Duncan and perhaps someone to be tapped into as a resource in the future (a spy in the rank of the wardens? a future head of the wardens?).

In support of this, of the little we see of it, Cailan's decision making appears to be extremely prudent: He does not see the darkspawn as a blight because he has no evidence for it, he does not take Duncan at his word, nevertheless he leaves the door open on that possibility; he does not provide immediate revenge for the human noble ("after we've dealt with the darkspawn" which may be code for: "I'll have to review how that fits into my strategy"); he immediately sends Alistair to the tower, protect my blood/or my future investment.

But the strategy is risky and he knows he is up against a master in Logain so he is playing everything extremely cautiously. I think to some extent, Duncan is aware of what is going on, but, apart from the fact that he likes Cailan, he is happy to play along for the time being because it is good for the GWs and also for tackling this blight. Duncan too is astute and may well be wise to Cailan's game, we see him rebuking Alistair for getting people's backs up unnecessarily in camp and ordering him to the tower.

I really like the way you think.

I just read too much.

[Truby-Liz]

I just started a new game yesterday and I noticed this as well. I think it might be just Cailin protecting the Therin bloodline, as he specifically asks for Alistair. Maybe he doubted the battle would be as sucessful as he originally thought, thanks to Loghain constantly trying to make him stay off the front lines. It gets Alistair out of the battle, somewhere where he should be safe.

I'm thinking the fact that Alistair is the junior Warden might have something to do with it - he doesn't have enough experience in battle to warrant being out there with all the other Wardens. Though Alistair does insinuate that there were other wardens who went though the Joining with him... who, in theory, should therefore have the same amount of experience as he. So now I'm thinking it's more the whole bloodline thing rather than anything else.

Truby-Liz

[Maria13]

Yes. I picked it up on my second run through too. Cailan is very clear in what he is saying, I suspect an ulterior motive.

[Godak]

I just think that Anora refused to have sex with Cailan (I would too!), and that's why he chose to have so many lovers (including, but not limited to, Celene, Empress of Orlais!)



Also, it may be that Cailan is the infertile one. He seems to have quite a bit of sex, but does he have any illegitimate mini-Cailan's running around?

[eschilde]

On the comparisons of Elizabeth to Anora. My understanding was Elizabeth was not a particularly great queen, either, and that her policies were geared toward her staying out of politics as much as possible. The reason she is remembered fondly is because of the military success they had against the Spanish Armada.. she stayed unmarried because offering marriage to other monarchs was a diplomatic tool.



Anora is a bit different. She was married and never had a child, and if you keep her on the throne by herself, it's made quite clear she has no intention of marrying anyone else. A person in that position would know that they need an heir of some sort, especially someone as calculating as Anora. It is strange that she makes no attempt to have one. I imagine this issue will be addressed in the expansion?



There are plenty of reasons why Cailan and Anora may not have had a child. Anora says Cailan had women on the side and she knew about them, but she doesn't say anything one way or another about whether he had bastard children. It's possible he did and she didn't know, or she knew and chose to say nothing about it, or that he just didn't, etc etc. Anora is also the only one who mentions his infidelity, isn't she? She could have been lying about that, though I don't see why she would. She does also mention that she did love Cailan despite it originally having been a political marriage (pretty sure this is only if you are romancing Alistair, though, and try to get them together), so I don't see why she wouldn't sleep with him. Of course, she could have been lying about that too, but I don't see why she would, either.



Cailan probably would have been within his rights to put Anora away for the sake of securing the Theirin line, which may have been why he and Loghain were arguing. You don't really get more of an explanation than that unless it's explained more in RtO (which still isn't out yet.. so it's a bit unfair to quote info from it..)



At any rate. Cailan probably did send Alistair to the Tower for a reason, although it's been speculated that it may have been because he wanted Alistair out of the way rather than because he wanted him safe. Hard to say, but it's not unreasonable to think he did it because he knew Alistair was the only heir at the time. (Of course, if he did save Alistair because he was the heir, that probably indicates that he had no illegitimate children, or at least none that he knew of, because otherwise they would have been in line, also? Well, I'm not sure if their claim would be better than Alistair's, though.)

[Doyle41]

Loghain and Anora are brutal liars. I don't think there is even much difference between Morrigan and Anora. They both told you what they wanted to hear just to get what they want. I found it funny that Anora ask for your support and I agreed knowing she would turn on me at the Landsmeet. I forgot the dialogue exactly but if you even mentioned of letting Logain live, Alistair shouts out that he wanted to be king so he could rid of the traitor himself. Anora sayid, "See what kind of king he would make. Making irrational decisions that favor vengeance." HMMMM... Pot calling the kettle black. As far as Cailin goes, he wants fame and honor. He doesn't want to share it with his half brother. I just wonder if Loghain had tod Cailan that they were half brothers or not. But what better way to rid the kingdom of them both other that leaving Ostagar. My question is, why were they tunneling beneath Ishal, isn't it weird that it was overrun by Darkspawn? Did Loghain allow the tower to be overtaken before the battle actually start? Another curious tidbit. There were only 3 Wardens at Ostagar yet Loghain said at the Landsmeet that if the Wardens were so great why did they fail at Ostagar? Yet he tried to make himself sound great while withdrawing his whole army. Yeah, you can say that I went just a little off subject.

[eschilde]

@Doyle41

I think the tunnels were already a part of the Tower, not that either Loghain's men or the darkspawn were actively building tunnels (I could be wrong, but that's how it sounded). And there were more than 3 Wardens, you just didn't see the rest because they were in the King's Camp. It's quite possible Loghain really did think that the loss at Ostagar was the fault of the Wardens, or had managed to justify that to himself.

[Klystron]

One small item that hasn't been mentioned iirc -- when you ask if you can join the battle after lighting the beacon, the answer is evasive (I forget the exact wording), sort of don't-call-us-we'll-call-you. Alistair was certainly being kept out of the battle, for whatever reason.



OT, but it'd be pretty funny if Alistair was shooting blanks and Morrigan relied on him for her grand plot... lol

[errant_knight]

Can you add a spoiler warning for RtO in the title? Most people haven't played it and won't be expecting to find the big time spoilering about it that's in here.