192 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Knight of Dane wrote...

1) We know what happens when we alert then while in the mansion, not in the basement.
"Someone's in the basement, they got past us and are slaughtering everyone."
"Quick, let Ser Cauthrien handle this"
That kind of thing.

In that case the soldiers upstairs would have been alerted.  We also know how the guards act if they are alerted since if you blow the disquises, we know what happens in that case.

It doesn't work.  I don't

2) Not if said spy were tagging at the Wardens tail. They can always turn around.

That doesn't work.  You are assuming a spy could remain hidden throught the entire castle, the narrow corridors, and all the AOE magic (all of which wreck stealth), and they wouldn't bother to alert Howe ahead of time?

No.  It doesn't work.

3) There is another way up, you don't have to go through that door.

If that were the case, then the upstairs would be alerted.  If you try to use that other door, the guards ARE alerted and you have to fight Howe's entire garrison.  There is absolutely no sign including from Howe that the guards have taken any notice of you until you run into them (they even have single patrols).

You can see throught the grate (although it's locked) as you pass through the hall on the left going down. No sign of guards and no patrols. 

After you start combat in the Dungeon (and I've clocked this), you can clear the entire place in five minutes and again there is NO sign that the upstairs is alerted if you do.  You also can go into the Foyer after you go back upstairs via the Arl's bedroom but before you rescue Anora and Ser Cauthrien isn't there (and the troops aren't alerted).

No, the only reasonable explaination is that Queen Anora ratted you out.  There is about 50 pages in the DAO archives that explains this.

-Polaris

[Knight of Dane]

No, you're just jumping to conclusions, still.

[IanPolaris]

Knight of Dane wrote...

No, you're just jumping to conclusions, still.

Go review the DAO archive.  I am not.

-Polaris

[Knight of Dane]

Yes you are, there is no proof, just opinion on what may or may not happen.

[esper]

IanPolaris wrote...

esper wrote...

@Ian. I don't think that Loghain executes them because at this point the wardens are offically allied with Eamon who accusses Loghain of all sort of things. Executing the wardens might, according to a certain logic, prove Eamon right and make it harder to win the Landsmeet. At this point I think Loghain is betting on being able to actually win the landsmeet. Get rid of Eamon and then execute the captored wardens.

Basically the moment Loghain offically met with your characters in Denerim, the dead or alive bounty became null.

This is an interesting point.  However, I have a couple of problems with it.

1.  If Alistair is with the group (and the game should not allow this frankly) why shouldn't Loghain just kill him?  I grant this would be a non-starter in most places in Denerim but certainly not in Howe's estate or Ft Drakon, and esp not if Loghain wins by default if that happens.

2.  The warden is likely a commoner.  Why would the nobles of Fereldan care if Loghain murdered a commoner...and esp a commoner that was in the act of a crime?  Given that Loghain would also win nearly by default, I have difficulty seeing him not killing the Warden....but I find this more plausible than the first since Eamon would still be able to present Alistair as an alternate king.

-Polaris

Again, PR. Sure it is more ruthless and effective to kill Alistair, but Loghain is trying coming off the landsmeet looking good and since Eamon basically have endorsed both the warden and Alistair.

If Loghain kills them Eamon can say 'How do we know that they really killed Howe? This is just another plot to remove the supporters of Maric's line from the throne? Like the time I was poisoned' Remember. Eamon don't really need proof, he just need enough to mistrust Loghain. Slaying the apperent heir could sway the landsmeet against him. I Eamon gets it to look like Loghain betrayed Maric's line, Eamon might win the throne simply because enough nobles dislike Loghain.

I think Loghain is basically saying. 'We are investigating Howes death and there is nothing supicious about withholdning the prime supspects.'

Basically Loghain is taking a gamble, trying to rewin the Banns trusts, which he has lost a good portion off. And by now he knows he cannot afford a real civil war. (Be it darkspawn or Orlais he fears).

Modifié par esper, 16 mai 2013 - 10:09 .

[robertthebard]

Somebody probably already said it, but Sandal...(spelling optional)

[IanPolaris]

esper wrote...

Again, PR. Sure it is more ruthless and effective to kill Alistair, but Loghain is trying coming off the landsmeet looking good and since Eamon basically have endorsed both the warden and Alistair.

If Loghain kills them Eamon can say 'How do we know that they really killed Howe? This is just another plot to remove the supporters of Maric's line from the throne? Like the time I was poisoned' Remember. Eamon don't really need proof, he just need enough to mistrust Loghain. Slaying the apperent heir could sway the landsmeet against him. I Eamon gets it to look like Loghain betrayed Maric's line, Eamon might win the throne simply because enough nobles dislike Loghain.

I think Loghain is basically saying. 'We are investigating Howes death and there is nothing supicious about withholdning the prime supspects.'

Basically Loghain is taking a gamble, trying to rewin the Banns trusts, which he has lost a good portion off. And by now he knows he cannot afford a real civil war. (Be it darkspawn or Orlais he fears).

Again, I think this is thin reasoning at best.  It's pretty clear that Loghain is going to have the Warden (or Warden and Alistair) executed very soon when you wake up in his dungeon.  It's also pretty clear they aren't getting visitors either.

That being so, it's more expidient to just kill them and lie about it until the Landsmeet is done.  Without Alistair in particular, Eamon would be forced to back Loghain as regent (as he says himself before you even leave).

Loghain wins. 

-Polaris

[Jestina]

simfamSP wrote...
Anora is Ferelden's best bet, with Alistair as a figurehead.

Pretty much, that. In the majority of my games Alistair ended up dead or as a piece of furniture for Anora. Alistair was presented as a weak character from the very beginning, having no desire to rule and always wanting to be a follower.

[IanPolaris]

Jestina wrote...

simfamSP wrote...
Anora is Ferelden's best bet, with Alistair as a figurehead.

Pretty much, that. In the majority of my games Alistair ended up dead or as a piece of furniture for Anora. Alistair was presented as a weak character from the very beginning, having no desire to rule and always wanting to be a follower.

You must not have hardened him then.

-Polaris

[robertthebard]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jestina wrote...

simfamSP wrote...
Anora is Ferelden's best bet, with Alistair as a figurehead.

Pretty much, that. In the majority of my games Alistair ended up dead or as a piece of furniture for Anora. Alistair was presented as a weak character from the very beginning, having no desire to rule and always wanting to be a follower.

You must not have hardened him then.

-Polaris

I hardened him every time, after I figured out how, and still invented the Kleenex box in my sig specifically for him.  Either way, he's not exactly emotionally stable.  I tipped my hat to his writer countless times back in the day, for creating a character that could actually get me to despise him as a person.

[IanPolaris]

robertthebard wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Jestina wrote...

simfamSP wrote...
Anora is Ferelden's best bet, with Alistair as a figurehead.

Pretty much, that. In the majority of my games Alistair ended up dead or as a piece of furniture for Anora. Alistair was presented as a weak character from the very beginning, having no desire to rule and always wanting to be a follower.

You must not have hardened him then.

-Polaris

I hardened him every time, after I figured out how, and still invented the Kleenex box in my sig specifically for him.  Either way, he's not exactly emotionally stable.  I tipped my hat to his writer countless times back in the day, for creating a character that could actually get me to despise him as a person.

And I despire Anora (and I think her leadership skills are overrated based on what we see in the game).  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  [I will agree that I wouldn't want an unhardened Alistair anywhere close to the throne either....unless I was a female noble Warden.]

-Polaris

[Jestina]

Alistair was never shown to be a strong person or having the qualities of a leader. There's no "poof" and he instantly becomes a completely different person. I don't remember there being any mention of Alistair having MPD, but maybe he did. For the entire game he's just a goofball with very little to no self motivation, contently being a follower and totally clueless when no one is leading him about. The only instance I recall of Alistair doing anything on his own was when he threw a tantrum during the landsmeet. If they wanted to sway the player to choose Alistair, then they should have given him strong character qualities instead of all weak qualities.

[IanPolaris]

Jestina wrote...

Alistair was never shown to be a strong person or having the qualities of a leader. There's no "poof" and he instantly becomes a completely different person. I don't remember there being any mention of Alistair having MPD, but maybe he did. For the entire game he's just a goofball with very little to no self motivation, contently being a follower and totally clueless when no one is leading him about. The only instance I recall of Alistair doing anything on his own was when he threw a tantrum during the landsmeet. If they wanted to sway the player to choose Alistair, then they should have given him strong character qualities instead of all weak qualities.

The Alistair vs Hardened-Alistair during the Landsmeet chapter of DAO is significant, and I think that dialog does show (or at least strongly indicate) a change to a much stronger and self-reliant personality.  Also the epilog slides tend to confirm it (and I know that they are no longer canon, but they do reflect the authorial intent at the time it was written).

-Polaris

[Jestina]

A couple other things I don't recall being addressed in the game is what if the Wardens abandon their stance of neutrality by taking the throne. Then you have the darkspawn corruption, which was never brought up either. If either Alistair or the pc were to take the throne, there is eventually going to be a raving lunatic ruling Fereldon, unless they wander off to die in battle somewhere. I don't remember how long Alistair had been a Warden but the Blight probably speeded up his journey towards corruption.

[EnforcerGREG]

Jestina wrote...

A couple other things I don't recall being addressed in the game is what if the Wardens abandon their stance of neutrality by taking the throne. Then you have the darkspawn corruption, which was never brought up either. If either Alistair or the pc were to take the throne, there is eventually going to be a raving lunatic ruling Fereldon, unless they wander off to die in battle somewhere. I don't remember how long Alistair had been a Warden but the Blight probably speeded up his journey towards corruption.

I think Alistair had only been a Grey Warden a few months before our warden took the joining. I think Gaider mentioned as much, Apparently there was an idea for an Alistair dlc with us following him through his joining and first days in the wardens.

One thing I don't think anyone brought up is the Darkspawns affect on fertility. (just jumped in after reading 3 pages so might not be the case) So any scenario that has a warden on the throne reduces the chance for an heir.

Also there is that rumour that Anora may be barren.

[Ananka]

Alistair and my warden.

[Mykel54]

The Theirins are a relic of the past, they failed to defend Ferelden agaisnt Orlais, and then failed in reclaiming the country too. It had to be a farmholder´s son that rose to command the rebel armies and throw back the orlesians.

All the Theirins since Brandel the Defeated have been terrible at their jobs, and other people have risen up to save Ferelden in their stead. If it wasn´t for Anora, Cailan would have been deposed or never ascended to the throne in the first place.

For me it´s clear that Loghain has to die a hero (which he deserves) so that her daughter can exploit the advantage and found the Mac Tir dynasty, and leave to rest the irresponsibly and inmature Theirin boys.

[Dave of Canada]

Anora and Cousland, Alistair is incompetent.

[IanPolaris]

There will be no dynasty. I believe DG is on record as saying that by design no matter who gets the throne, there will be no heir to the Fereldan throne. Anora does in fact seem to be barren, Alistair and the Warden are well....Grey Wardens.

-Polaris

[Knight of Dane]

^
I'd be very interested to see a political theme in Dragon Age that involved democracy vs. monarchy or something similar.

[Knight of Dane]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jestina wrote...

Alistair was never shown to be a strong person or having the qualities of a leader. There's no "poof" and he instantly becomes a completely different person. I don't remember there being any mention of Alistair having MPD, but maybe he did. For the entire game he's just a goofball with very little to no self motivation, contently being a follower and totally clueless when no one is leading him about. The only instance I recall of Alistair doing anything on his own was when he threw a tantrum during the landsmeet. If they wanted to sway the player to choose Alistair, then they should have given him strong character qualities instead of all weak qualities.

The Alistair vs Hardened-Alistair during the Landsmeet chapter of DAO is significant, and I think that dialog does show (or at least strongly indicate) a change to a much stronger and self-reliant personality.  Also the epilog slides tend to confirm it (and I know that they are no longer canon, but they do reflect the authorial intent at the time it was written).

-Polaris

There is a change, however I'm not sure I'd call it significant.

He changes his opinion of Anora, unhardened he thinks she should be the Queen and that she's competent. Hardened he still thinks that she's competent, but in another way; he doesn't trust her.

The only thing that changes during the actual landsmeet is that Alistair will accept the crown automatically if he kills Loghain.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 17 mai 2013 - 05:38 .

[Sylvianus]

My Warden and Anora.

[Augustei]

Knight of Dane wrote...

^
I'd be very interested to see a political theme in Dragon Age that involved democracy vs. monarchy or something similar.

That sounds extremely awful and uninteresting


Anyway the best person for the Ferelden throne is easily Unhardened Alistair...... With my DN Warden as Chancellor pulling all the strings =P

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 18 mai 2013 - 04:27 .

[Nyaore]

I'd say it's a toss up between Unhardened/Hardened Alistair with a competent Cousland bride, most of the Couslands the fans create wouldn't do well in the role in my frank opinion - and Hardened Alistair with Anora. When it comes to the succession, however, I think we can almost all agree that the chances of an heir being produced are unlikely regardless of the scenario. Except maybe in the case of Alistiar ruling on his own and choosing a bride that wasn't the Human Noble. Anora seems to be barren, and we all know how small the chances are of a Warden on Warden pairing producing any offspring. So regardless of how takes the throne now, chances are Ferelden will be thrown into turmoil of some kind once Alistair/Anora/Cousland die and no blooded heir is apparent.

Modifié par Nyaore, 18 mai 2013 - 04:43 .