Some aspects of the Qun seem... odd, in that they don't seem likely to produce positive results when trying to assimilate whole human communities. While the kossith race might be just inherently orderly-minded and gravitate into organized group thought in such a way that it makes the Qun actually workable for a general society, the qunari's own history seems to contradict that, with the "kossith" civilization seeming to have a relatively chaotic, humanish social structure. If the race is not inherently more orderly than humans, then such a society would be impossible to achieve with purely mundane social means... and it would never succeed in assimilating humans who weren't all willing and zealous converts.
This has got me to thinking about ways that the Qun might not simply consist of mundane social controls. What if, instead, the society is based on some kind of very long-term magical effect that influences the minds of all who accept the Qun to become more inherently orderly? What if, perhaps, Koslun was a remarkably powerful blood mage who wanted to ensure that his legacy would forever survive, and hence magically ensured it? Or... what if Koslun never died? What if the Qun is a sort of curse similar to Zathrian's werewolf one, that ensures Koslun's immortality, and he lurks somewhere on Par Vollen still, perhaps to serve as the final boss of the fourth DA game?
What if the Qun itself is supernatural?
Débuté par
Xilizhra
, mai 14 2013 11:59
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#2
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 12:03
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Sounds like a mild form of tranquility, when you put it that way.
#3
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 12:05
sandalisthemaker
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I like this theory.
Perhaps the (kossith) Qunari have a drone-like mentality reminiscent of a hive mind.
Koslun being a mage would be just as wonderfully ironic as if Andraste was revealed to be a mage. Qamek could be a form of blood magic used to control minds.
Perhaps the (kossith) Qunari have a drone-like mentality reminiscent of a hive mind.
Koslun being a mage would be just as wonderfully ironic as if Andraste was revealed to be a mage. Qamek could be a form of blood magic used to control minds.
#4
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 12:06
LobselVith8
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StreetMagic wrote...
Sounds like a mild form of tranquility, when you put it that way.
They have their own version of it with qamek.
#5
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 12:58
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I have to wonder if you feel there is an analogue in real-world situations that mimic this, though that's irrelevant here.
#6
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 01:11
Fast Jimmy
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There is nothing supernatural in the methods of the Qun. Societies that have focused on discipline and order have been found in human history and have been enormously successful while they lasted.
A perfect example is Spartan Greece. The Spartans had cruel, but effective methods of raising their children to make every member of their nation strong and removing any sort of weakness (we've all seen 300). They were to forsake all wealth, including their kings and leaders, and not have any luxuries that would make them soft or weak, but used their resources to build the strength of their state. Sounds pretty military-communist... a lot like the Qun.
Yet the Spartans were able to conquer all of Greece and a significant portion of the Persian empire, the largest dominion seen in Europe until Alexander the Great.
This success, however, was their downfall. They were not able to convert (nor did they apparently give much effort to try) the rest of the world to their customs or beliefs. Which means that the Spartan rulers had to work with diplomats, merchants, kings and traders with enormous amounts of wealth and who had very strong interests in how their new rulers would grant them favors. Human nature being what it is, the rulers were corrupted and what was once a sparse (hence, Spartan) way of life was turned into chaotic and wasteful.
Meanwhile, even as the leadership of Sparta dwindled, the armies of Greece were still strong. So the leaders of Athens slowly took, slice by slice, more and more control of the Greek empire, until eventually the capital was moved there and Sparta became a shadow of itself.
The Qun does mostly the same thing... except that it has a very articulate and effective (and, again, brutal) way of subjugation that includes bringing all newly conquered cities to their way of thinking or death. If an entire nation believes the Qun, it makes it powerful. It the entire WORLD embraced the Qun... well, it would either be an abomination or it would be perfect harmony. One of the two.
A perfect example is Spartan Greece. The Spartans had cruel, but effective methods of raising their children to make every member of their nation strong and removing any sort of weakness (we've all seen 300). They were to forsake all wealth, including their kings and leaders, and not have any luxuries that would make them soft or weak, but used their resources to build the strength of their state. Sounds pretty military-communist... a lot like the Qun.
Yet the Spartans were able to conquer all of Greece and a significant portion of the Persian empire, the largest dominion seen in Europe until Alexander the Great.
This success, however, was their downfall. They were not able to convert (nor did they apparently give much effort to try) the rest of the world to their customs or beliefs. Which means that the Spartan rulers had to work with diplomats, merchants, kings and traders with enormous amounts of wealth and who had very strong interests in how their new rulers would grant them favors. Human nature being what it is, the rulers were corrupted and what was once a sparse (hence, Spartan) way of life was turned into chaotic and wasteful.
Meanwhile, even as the leadership of Sparta dwindled, the armies of Greece were still strong. So the leaders of Athens slowly took, slice by slice, more and more control of the Greek empire, until eventually the capital was moved there and Sparta became a shadow of itself.
The Qun does mostly the same thing... except that it has a very articulate and effective (and, again, brutal) way of subjugation that includes bringing all newly conquered cities to their way of thinking or death. If an entire nation believes the Qun, it makes it powerful. It the entire WORLD embraced the Qun... well, it would either be an abomination or it would be perfect harmony. One of the two.
Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 mai 2013 - 01:15 .
#7
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 01:19
Enigmatick
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^You misunderstand the OP made this thread to create a wild theory to support her disapproval of the Qun, the people that usually agree with her in other threads are supposed to come in and circlejerk for a bit and then someone who disagrees comes in and starts a debate. Then we have a 15+ thread, you're not supposed to use logic and reason, you are supposed to use hyperbole and emotion fueled statements to argue in here
#8
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Posté 15 mai 2013 - 01:20
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Sounds ironically similar to the "Imperium" of Man with God-Emperor Koslun there.
Still I think imma have to say what I think KoP would say on this one, that relying on supernatural to excuse the way they act instead of convincing us it could happen that way, would be lazy bad writing. Like saying all the people in Kirkwall were psycho because a thin veil and Corypheus. What makes qunari interesting is the idea that they have a point of view legitimately different and act without coercion to fulfill it in opposition to us. Saying a blood mage did it would cheapen that I think, make them more one dimensional, though it would be a great "twist" I guess. But then I think you actively desire to have the points of view you disagree with to be cast as one dimensional villains to slaughter en masse...
Still I think imma have to say what I think KoP would say on this one, that relying on supernatural to excuse the way they act instead of convincing us it could happen that way, would be lazy bad writing. Like saying all the people in Kirkwall were psycho because a thin veil and Corypheus. What makes qunari interesting is the idea that they have a point of view legitimately different and act without coercion to fulfill it in opposition to us. Saying a blood mage did it would cheapen that I think, make them more one dimensional, though it would be a great "twist" I guess. But then I think you actively desire to have the points of view you disagree with to be cast as one dimensional villains to slaughter en masse...
#9
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 01:24
Fast Jimmy
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Enigmatick wrote...
^You misunderstand the OP made this thread to create a wild theory to support her disapproval of the Qun, the people that usually agree with her in other threads are supposed to come in and circlejerk for a bit and then someone who disagrees comes in and starts a debate. Then we have a 15+ thread, you're not supposed to use logic and reason, you are supposed to use hyperbole and emotion fueled statements to argue in here
Ah. My apologies. I didn't realize. I will excuse my self before the circle starts, then.
#10
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 01:39
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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It doesn't seem to me like the sort of thing that would require metaphysical influence. All you have to do is educate the military and police properly, scare anyone who would disobey into marching in lockstep, and of course it helps to start teaching the populace this stuff young. As for there being some metaphysical influence guiding the Qun... while it would make a satisfying twist, I don't know if it's possible. Not only are there Qunari who successfully rebel (a lot of them, apparently) and yet no rumors in this direction, but this influence would have to have a truly insane range. Sten is still a Qunari in Lothering.
Furthermore, there's a Gaider comment that implies that its merely conditioning. "Sten likely faces a lengthy debriefing with the Ben-Hassrath. He's been off gallivanting with bas for quite some time, you see. Contamination is a risk." If Sten was literally unable to disobey the Qun, I don't think it would be.
Furthermore, there's a Gaider comment that implies that its merely conditioning. "Sten likely faces a lengthy debriefing with the Ben-Hassrath. He's been off gallivanting with bas for quite some time, you see. Contamination is a risk." If Sten was literally unable to disobey the Qun, I don't think it would be.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 mai 2013 - 01:40 .
#11
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 01:51
Cainhurst Crow
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Enigmatick wrote...
^You misunderstand the OP made this thread to create a wild theory to support her disapproval of the Qun, the people that usually agree with her in other threads are supposed to come in and circlejerk for a bit and then someone who disagrees comes in and starts a debate. Then we have a 15+ thread, you're not supposed to use logic and reason, you are supposed to use hyperbole and emotion fueled statements to argue in here
Quoted for truth. Maybe the bsn is really supernatural, and we're all under the sway of it's hive mind powers to fullfill out roles on the boards.
#12
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 01:58
RedArmyShogun
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You dare speak such lies against the Qun?
Then convert others to your lies?
Unforgivable, you brought other people into this I won't forgive you even if you beg!
You will cry! You will Scream!
You will suffer for what you've done!
Glory is found only in the Qun.
Then convert others to your lies?
Unforgivable, you brought other people into this I won't forgive you even if you beg!
You will cry! You will Scream!
You will suffer for what you've done!
Glory is found only in the Qun.
#13
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Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:03
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Fast Jimmy wrote...
Ah. My apologies. I didn't realize. I will excuse my self before the circle starts, then.
No, no. *closes door behind you* Please stay.
*locks double cylinder deadbolt and tosses key away*
Now...let's begin. Get the whips and chains, somebody!
#14
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:07
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Besides the fictional characters, I'm curious what compels real people to actually like the Qun and attempt to roleplay as one. What's that all about? Obviously you're not "brainwashed", so you must genuinely like something about it. What are you like in real life? Did you join the Boy Scouts or ROTC? Are you an accountant? Want to be a security guard when you grow up? Seems like those are the personality types best suited, but I could be wrong. If I was to carry this further and use Jungian/MBTI personality types, it fits the "ISTJ" role best.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 15 mai 2013 - 02:09 .
#15
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:16
lil yonce
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I think the Qun sounds a lot like Plato's Republic.
#16
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:18
The Hierophant
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Shouldn't this thread be in the DAO or DA2 subforums instead as it has nothing to do with DAI?
#17
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:23
Fast Jimmy
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The Hierophant wrote...
Shouldn't this thread be in the DAO or DA2 subforums instead as it has nothing to do with DAI?
Given that it is highly likely that we will have out first Kossith companion (Iron Bull) for DA3, I would say it is more relevant than ever.
#18
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:30
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Youth4Ever wrote...
I think the Qun sounds a lot like Plato's Republic.
Kind of. A big difference is that Platonians and Aristotelians were idealists. The Qunari claim to be naturalists. It amounts to the same idealism as Plato, but they take it a step further and says that their roles actually reflect the "real world". Plato never did that. He aspired to a world of ideals. He admitted that the real world didn't live up to any of it. He admitted to imposing new ideas on to the world.
I think this makes the Qun more dangerous, because they operate under an assumption that their perception is the "true reality". Rather than just ideas. They don't see themselves as imposing anything. They think the Qun is what the natural world intends. There's fewer ways to convince someone that they're wrong, if they think the world in their head is EXACTLY the world as it's intended to be.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 15 mai 2013 - 02:33 .
#19
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:32
Fast Jimmy
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StreetMagic wrote...
Besides the fictional characters, I'm curious what compels real people to actually like the Qun and attempt to roleplay as one. What's that all about? Obviously you're not "brainwashed", so you must genuinely like something about it. What are you like in real life? Did you join the Boy Scouts or ROTC? Are you an accountant? Want to be a security guard when you grow up? Seems like those are the personality types best suited, but I could be wrong. If I was to carry this further and use Jungian/MBTI personality types, it fits the "ISTJ" role best.
No one likes being told what to do.
But no one likes feeling they don't have a purpose in life. Feeling like they don't know what to do, or they weren't prepared for the challenges they face or the obstacles they need to overcome.
What if the person telling you what to do had an amazing track record (hundreds of years of satisfied customers)? What if you were trained to not only succeed in the life laid out before you, but excelled at it? What if there were no pressures to advance, or make more money, or worry about where your next meal will come from?
And what if it is known that if you show an interest or aptitude for other game, you could be reassigned? That you wouldn't be in the same role all of your life if you proved yourself useful? And that all of your work was to help your friends, family and country, instead of being all about personal gain? And said system is not stagnant or decaying, but vibrant, technologically advanced and militarily dominant?
I am not a fan of the Qun, but it offers the promise we've seen in the past of human history of a society governed to serve the needs of the many. And while many of these have failed in the real world, the Qun seems to have a great history of success.
I'm not sure why it is surprising people would support it.
#20
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:37
The Hierophant
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Iron Bull? But he's a myth, a fairy tale to scare unruly children into obedience?Fast Jimmy wrote...
The Hierophant wrote...
Shouldn't this thread be in the DAO or DA2 subforums instead as it has nothing to do with DAI?
Given that it is highly likely that we will have out first Kossith companion (Iron Bull) for DA3, I would say it is more relevant than ever.
#21
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:46
lil yonce
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Yeah, Plato himself may have been an idealist, but I think the Republic he imagined in this work was rather naturalist.StreetMagic wrote...
Youth4Ever wrote...
I think the Qun sounds a lot like Plato's Republic.
Kind of. A big difference is that Platonians and Aristotelians were idealists. The Qunari claim to be naturalists. It amounts to the same idealism as Plato, but they take it a step further and says that their roles actually reflect the "real world". Plato never did that. He aspired to a world of ideals. He admitted that the real world didn't live up to any of it. He admitted to imposing new ideas on to the world.
[Snip]
Modifié par Youth4Ever, 15 mai 2013 - 06:26 .
#22
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 03:04
eye basher
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Frankly i believe that any person who lets some religion tell them how they should live their lives is an idiot.
#23
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 03:37
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eye basher wrote...
Frankly i believe that any person who lets some religion tell them how they should live their lives is an idiot.
Frankly I believe that anyone who lets society's misconception of religion color their view is an idiot.
Not really. But I can play the game too.
#24
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 03:39
Volus Warlord
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eye basher wrote...
Frankly i believe that any person who lets some religion tell them how they should live their lives is an idiot.
Frankly I believe everyone is an idiot but is too hopelessly idiotic to admit it.
#25
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 03:43
Sharn01
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People today have so much to live for compared to people from our past and the people living in the DA setting, we have so many things to enjoy and keep ourselves entertained, they can not say the same thing. Unless they where fabulously wealthy their lives consisted mostly of working, sleeping and procreating, maybe getting plastered if they could afford it. When that is pretty much your entire existence its likely you will look for something to give your life meaning, that is why religion was so much more powerful then world wide, the Qun also offers the illusion of equality which is appealing to someone who has no foreseeable way to raise their own standing in life.
Its not like religion in general is always a bad thing, if a person is religious and it makes them happier and/or makes them a better person then its doing something good. Its unfortunate that religion often tries to force its ideals on others, but its not like religion is the only culprit of that crime, its currently often a joke to watch the two extremes from each side try to force their ideals on the other, but that is really the main crime of the qun, and the church of Andraste for that matter, its that they try to force their ideals on everyone and are inflexible in their doctrine even when its clear that it needs to be adjusted.
As to the people who seem to support the qun in real life, I think you will find most just find them fascinating in game, or are having some fun with people, maybe trolling a bit to try and lighten the sour mood of people who take things way to seriously sometimes.
Its not like religion in general is always a bad thing, if a person is religious and it makes them happier and/or makes them a better person then its doing something good. Its unfortunate that religion often tries to force its ideals on others, but its not like religion is the only culprit of that crime, its currently often a joke to watch the two extremes from each side try to force their ideals on the other, but that is really the main crime of the qun, and the church of Andraste for that matter, its that they try to force their ideals on everyone and are inflexible in their doctrine even when its clear that it needs to be adjusted.
As to the people who seem to support the qun in real life, I think you will find most just find them fascinating in game, or are having some fun with people, maybe trolling a bit to try and lighten the sour mood of people who take things way to seriously sometimes.
