169 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

To be fair, Kirkwall is a hole. It's apparently not so much a matter of stuff being just right, since Sten was able to live more or less okay in Ferelden. Kirkwall, on the other hand, has Petrice, the Winters, and that guard that raped the elven viddathari's sister. Not to mention all those crazy mages and apparently a larger number of corrupt nobles.

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

I think the Qun sounds a lot like Plato's Republic.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

[Xilizhra]

Filament wrote...

Sounds ironically similar to the "Imperium" of Man with God-Emperor Koslun there.

Still I think imma have to say what I think KoP would say on this one, that relying on supernatural to excuse the way they act instead of convincing us it could happen that way, would be lazy bad writing. Like saying all the people in Kirkwall were psycho because a thin veil and Corypheus. What makes qunari interesting is the idea that they have a point of view legitimately different and act without coercion to fulfill it in opposition to us. Saying a blood mage did it would cheapen that I think, make them more one dimensional, though it would be a great "twist" I guess. But then I think you actively desire to have the points of view you disagree with to be cast as one dimensional villains to slaughter en masse...

I doubt I'll truly be convinced at all that it could happen that way, so I don't think that the writing can save it either way here. In any case, this would actually make them less like one-dimensional villains, which they more or less are now (although the thing they're one-dimensional about isn't precisely villainy), and more along the lines of actual victims.

[iOnlySignIn]

Their 'magic' must have transcended space, time, and the boundaries of reality to affect me.

Seriously though, it's hilariously ironic that you're attributing something you don't understand to the supernatural. Because this is exactly how religions are invented.

What if Bill Gates is an immortal Blood Mage Reaper Catalyst? And by using Windows, you are Indotroctrinated/Tranquilized?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 15 mai 2013 - 01:57 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'd take the darkspawn over anyone's idea of a utopia (preferably a quick death though).

I don't know what direction Bioware is going with all of it, but it's kind of unsettling how they've handled it so far. They try to paint it in the best light. I'm waiting for the Bioshock like commentary on how these ideal societies turn out to be nightmares. Instead, the writers play cheap tricks to make you an unintentional Qun follower. You have to read between the lines too much to not fall for it. Maybe this is how the Qun gets followers. Not magic, but cheap tricks. They make the Kirkwall protesters look too extreme (like Varnell and Petrice.. although I side with them myself), and they sucker you in with Talis and her appeals to "doing things for the good of all". They don't give people a choice to really scrutinize it in an honest way, and I'm wondering why. At best, you get a fight with the Arishok, but that's pretty shallow in the big picture. Simple duals don't solve differences like this.

We already have Mary Kirby going on record as saying she would not want to live the Qunari life. As for not giving you a chance to scrutinize it in an honest way, maybe that's how the Qun draws converts. The elven viddathari are probably those who decide "my life can't possibly get any worse" and betray their religion and to a large degree their culture hoping it will improve things. I tend to doubt, however, that they will find it to have been the right decision afterwards. (Of course, I'm not sure what drew Seamus. Teen rebellion, maybe, but this is going a little far...)

[Herr Uhl]

It would be a major let down. And from way out of left field.

[Wulfram]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'd take the darkspawn over anyone's idea of a utopia (preferably a quick death though).

I don't know what direction Bioware is going with all of it, but it's kind of unsettling how they've handled it so far. They try to paint it in the best light. I'm waiting for the Bioshock like commentary on how these ideal societies turn out to be nightmares. Instead, the writers play cheap tricks to make you an unintentional Qun follower. You have to read between the lines too much to not fall for it. Maybe this is how the Qun gets followers. Not magic, but cheap tricks. They make the Kirkwall protesters look too extreme (like Varnell and Petrice.. although I side with them myself), and they sucker you in with Talis and her appeals to "doing things for the good of all". They don't give people a choice to really scrutinize it in an honest way, and I'm wondering why. At best, you get a fight with the Arishok, but that's pretty shallow in the big picture. Simple duals don't solve differences like this.

I don't think they feel the case against the Qunari really needs to be made.  We (generally) live in societies that place a very high value on freedom, which the Qunari obviously drastically deficient in.  And we also don't experience the sort of lack of rule of law that characterises the rest of Thedosian societies, which might make Qunari society seem comparatively attractive.

But it does seem that in their desire to create an interesting debate between "Freedom" and "Order", they ignore potential flaws in the Qunari system that don't fit with that dichotomy - thus those with power in Qunari society show no signs of corruption, nor does Qunari society exhibit the rigidity or consequent fragility that would be expected from such a dogmatically based system.

Also, the inability of our PCs to make obvious counter-arguments gets annoying, as does their making the options to be strongly opposed to the Qunari associated with mindless zealotry

[Fast Jimmy]

But it does seem that in their desire to create an interesting debate between "Freedom" and "Order", they ignore potential flaws in the Qunari system that don't fit with that dichotomy - thus those with power in Qunari society show no signs of corruption, nor does Qunari society exhibit the rigidity or consequent fragility that would be expected from such a dogmatically based system.

That's really the rub, isn't it? The real-world examples we have all are prime examples of extreme corruption and power mongering. Yet the Qun manages to actually practice what it preaches and make people work towards a better existence for the group while, at the same time, remaining entirely flexible in their system of succession AND the most developed technological society. And have remained this stable and effective for centuries.

They really cracked the nut. They figured it out. Sure, it is a brutal and oppressive regime... but they found the balance between divying out power, resources and responsibilities while, at the same time, not preventing the efficacy of its followers. The proof is in the pudding.

[Fast Jimmy]

StreetMagic wrote...

Anyone who thinks "they figured it out" needs to be curbstomped asap.

But they have. They have perfected the communal dictatorship. 

I'm not saying it is a perfect society, as its violations of human rights are too numerous to count... but they have no rebellions, they have no internal power struggles of note, they have no conflicts in questions of succession, they have no gross under utilization of resources or goods... they have perfected their society. Everything they have set out to do with making their people's lives what Koslun envisioned has come to pass, minus the "spreading the Qun to the entire world" part. 

If anyone wants to "curbstomp" me for pointing out those facts... come at me, bro. 

[Kidd]

StreetMagic wrote...

Besides the fictional characters, I'm curious what compels real people to actually like the Qun and attempt to roleplay as one. What's that all about? Obviously you're not "brainwashed", so you must genuinely like something about it. What are you like in real life? Did you join the Boy Scouts or ROTC? Are you an accountant? Want to be a security guard when you grow up? Seems like those are the personality types best suited, but I could be wrong. If I was to carry this further and use Jungian/MBTI personality types, it fits the "ISTJ" role best.

I'm an ENFP, thus as far from ISTJ as possible. The Qun is really interesting in that it gives so many answers, certainty and meaning to life. In many ways it is a utopia where people respect each other and their work without arbitrarily deciding that certain roles are worth more or less. Even in hierarchy like arishok and his solders, a leader needs subordinates, and the subordinates need their leader. Everybody do their part and everybody are important.

Of course, in many other ways it's not-so-very-utopian. Can't eat the cake and have it, it seems =)

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 15 mai 2013 - 03:43 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

They have rebellions. Sten mentions one that even he finds scary, and I think Fenris lived with some rebel Qunari who hated both the Qun and the Imperium. Before he killed them all because someone he hated told him to.

[Fast Jimmy]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They have rebellions. Sten mentions one that even he finds scary, and I think Fenris lived with some rebel Qunari who hated both the Qun and the Imperium. Before he killed them all because someone he hated told him to.

The Tal-Vashoth don't count. Because they don't reject the Qun to topple it or seize control... they do it because they want to raid merchants and make money. There is no civil war, no group trying to topple the existing rulers or stage a coup. They are criminals, not rebels. If a society never had any criminals at all, then I really WOULD suspect some form of magical mind control in place. 

I don't know of the rebellion Sten talks about. Do you mean when a qunaaranvel is named? If so, that is basically a huge party where afterwards, in order to regain order, executions must be done. That isn't really a rebellion of any merit. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 mai 2013 - 03:52 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They have rebellions. Sten mentions one that even he finds scary, and I think Fenris lived with some rebel Qunari who hated both the Qun and the Imperium. Before he killed them all because someone he hated told him to.

The Tal-Vashoth don't count. Because they don't reject the Qun to topple it or seize control... they do it because they want to raid merchants and make money. There is no civil war, no group trying to topple the existing rulers or stage a coup. They are criminals, not rebels. If a society never had any criminals at all, then I really WOULD suspect some form of magical mind control in place.

They want to break free of Qunari control, and some of them go after the Qun itself. In fact, my understanding is that Fenris lived with a group that wanted to make the jungles of Seheron an independent state. I think that counts as a rebellion.

I don't know of the rebellion Sten talks about. Do you mean when a qunaaranvel is named? If so, that is basically a huge party where afterwards, in order to regain order, executions must be done. That isn't really a rebellion of any merit. 

Actually, that was the Tal-Vashoth I was referring to there; he tells you about them if his approval is high enough. He calls them the "fiends of the Seheron," and they creep even him out with their methods.

Also, quick nitpick, they don't always need to execute people to restore order after a hero is named. From his tone, I actually got the impression that it was reasonably rare even in the context that the parties aren't an everyday thing.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 mai 2013 - 04:13 .

[BouncyFrag]

Exploring the secrets of the Qun would be extremely compelling material for me. I'm not sure how applicable it would be for the next game, but since we only have a vague idea of where the games setting(s) will be, who knows?

[Cainhurst Crow]

StreetMagic wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Anyone who thinks "they figured it out" needs to be curbstomped asap.

But they have. They have perfected the communal dictatorship. 

I'm not saying it is a perfect society, as its violations of human rights are too numerous to count... but they have no rebellions, they have no internal power struggles of note, they have no conflicts in questions of succession, they have no gross under utilization of resources or goods... they have perfected their society. Everything they have set out to do with making their people's lives what Koslun envisioned has come to pass, minus the "spreading the Qun to the entire world" part. 

If anyone wants to "curbstomp" me for pointing out those facts... come at me, bro. 

Perfecting a communal dictatorship. What does that even mean? It's an oxymoron.

More circular Qunari nonsense. I'm not falling for it, dude.

While I would like to know what a communal dictatorship for jimmy is as well, I have a feeling what he means is that absolute power in a society is granted to an individual at the behest of the people. In thedas, pretty much every ruler is a form of micro-dictatorship, with a lord having absolute power over his subjects unless the ruling arl or king says otherwise.

I do find your arguments and opposition to anything about the qunari not negative as "nonsense" a bit confusing though, since there are clear, demonstratable facts about the qunari civilization that show it has benefited from it's shift from individuals being supreme to the collective good of the society being supreme.

Individual rights, hell, all rights, are manmade creations forged from words that everyone has more or less consented to follow together as a subconscious collective. The qunari are not an oxymoron because their system doesn't value individual expression over collective societal good, they are simply another form of civilization many would not wish to live in due to the current high valuation on individual rights and liberties most current societies value. You have to look at their society for what it is and not by how different it is to your own.

I see the qunari as having reached a utopian ideal at the sacrifice of a individuals emphasis in calculation, but that by sacrificing that individuality they have been able to achieve advancements that put the rest of thedas to shame, such as sanitation and resource allocation ensuring people don't starve and die from horrible diseases such as dissentary or infections.(This, by the way, was confirmed by david gaider on the forums a few weeks ago).

[Boycott Bioware]

The Qun is actually determinism doctrine

http://www.informati...eterminism.html
https://en.wikipedia...iki/Determinism

[Fast Jimmy]

While I would like to know what a communal dictatorship for jimmy is as well, I have a feeling what he means is that absolute power in a society is granted to an individual at the behest of the people. In thedas, pretty much every ruler is a form of micro-dictatorship, with a lord having absolute power over his subjects unless the ruling arl or king says otherwise.

This is, roughly, what I meant.

The Ariqun has final say in every aspect of the Qunari way of life. They control the training and designation of roles for every child, they are in charge of determining the will of the Qun, they determine the actions with other governments and are the ruling authority. The members of the Ariqun are chosen by other members of the Ariqun, have no process of appeal or check in power and pretty much can do anything they want. That, unequiocably, makes the Qunari a dictatorship.

But the Qunari also have an improved quality to life above their Thedosian counter parts, in terms of health and living conditions. No one starves or wants for shelter. They have made technological advances centuries beyond any other member of the game's world. There are no signs of excess or corruption, nor any gross abuse of power on the behalf of individuals. That makes it a perfectly functional communal society - everyone works for the benefit of the group.

Hence... communal dictatorship. And a fully effective and long-lasting one.