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[billy the squid]

A society which drives towards utilitarianism, based on meritocracy, and devoid of the petty politiking, nepotism and divisions of the main lands, yep, can't see the attraction in that.

The freedom to starve isn't freedom at all.

But, yeah magic, apart from the point that the Qunari keep their Mages on leashes, so how would the someone ascend to a position of absolute authority, via use of magic, without anyone noticing when all followers of the Qun are groomed and selected from childhood for the task and calling which suits them best, or re assigned if they are better suited to another role.

There's you're underlying ideology, using magic is a cheap cop out clause. The greatest dictatorships and Empire the world has seen have that same underlying belief that they are superior, and bring enlightenment and civilisation, by force if necessary. And that's without the rigorous education and life of the Qun.

[Cainhurst Crow]

StreetMagic wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Anyone who thinks "they figured it out" needs to be curbstomped asap.

But they have. They have perfected the communal dictatorship. 

I'm not saying it is a perfect society, as its violations of human rights are too numerous to count... but they have no rebellions, they have no internal power struggles of note, they have no conflicts in questions of succession, they have no gross under utilization of resources or goods... they have perfected their society. Everything they have set out to do with making their people's lives what Koslun envisioned has come to pass, minus the "spreading the Qun to the entire world" part. 

If anyone wants to "curbstomp" me for pointing out those facts... come at me, bro. 

Perfecting a communal dictatorship. What does that even mean? It's an oxymoron.

More circular Qunari nonsense. I'm not falling for it, dude.

While I would like to know what a communal dictatorship for jimmy is as well, I have a feeling what he means is that absolute power in a society is granted to an individual at the behest of the people. In thedas, pretty much every ruler is a form of micro-dictatorship, with a lord having absolute power over his subjects unless the ruling arl or king says otherwise.

I do find your arguments and opposition to anything about the qunari not negative as "nonsense" a bit confusing though, since there are clear, demonstratable facts about the qunari civilization that show it has benefited from it's shift from individuals being supreme to the collective good of the society being supreme.

Individual rights, hell, all rights, are manmade creations forged from words that everyone has more or less consented to follow together as a subconscious collective. The qunari are not an oxymoron because their system doesn't value individual expression over collective societal good, they are simply another form of civilization many would not wish to live in due to the current high valuation on individual rights and liberties most current societies value. You have to look at their society for what it is and not by how different it is to your own.

I see the qunari as having reached a utopian ideal at the sacrifice of a individuals emphasis in calculation, but that by sacrificing that individuality they have been able to achieve advancements that put the rest of thedas to shame, such as sanitation and resource allocation ensuring people don't starve and die from horrible diseases such as dissentary or infections.(This, by the way, was confirmed by david gaider on the forums a few weeks ago).

I guess if people like yourself honestly believe that, then it's best to just cut to the chase and let the conflict come to a head. I have no interest in any kind of debate or bridging the gap, what you have to offer or what your virtues are, when there's a fundamental difference at this level. The best thing to do is to get busy fighting each other. Less talk. I'm quite OK with being the ugly human Qunari characters disdain so much.

How quaint, you make assumptions that I support the qunari simply because I admit that rights are a charade and the qunari have some positive traits.

Just because rights are not some divine force that governs humanity but a collectively agreed upon terms for living together, enforced by a states authority figures, doesn't mean I don't like having them in place. I enjoy being an individual becuase I enjoy the benefits of forging my own identity through the freedoms I am permited. I wouldn't give it up if I had a choice, but I don't idolize them or make them out to be somehow concrete and non-negotiable, that is the route of folly and exploitation.

Qunari are different from us in what they value, what they think is the most important thing in life, and in how they approach outsiders. They've shown a dangerous desire to spread their civilization through conquest, and that is something I do not appreciate, whether they worship andraste, the qun, or the old gods, they violate a principle I value myself, and so I will stand against them if I need to. I simply don't want to force them into abandoning their culture and way of life simply becasue I don't like them, I look at whether it hurts others around them first.

[billy the squid]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

While I would like to know what a communal dictatorship for jimmy is as well, I have a feeling what he means is that absolute power in a society is granted to an individual at the behest of the people. In thedas, pretty much every ruler is a form of micro-dictatorship, with a lord having absolute power over his subjects unless the ruling arl or king says otherwise.

This is, roughly, what I meant.

The Ariqun has final say in every aspect of the Qunari way of life. They control the training and designation of roles for every child, they are in charge of determining the will of the Qun, they determine the actions with other governments and are the ruling authority. The members of the Ariqun are chosen by other members of the Ariqun, have no process of appeal or check in power and pretty much can do anything they want. That, unequiocably, makes the Qunari a dictatorship.

But the Qunari also have an improved quality to life above their Thedosian counter parts, in terms of health and living conditions. No one starves or wants for shelter. They have made technological advances centuries beyond any other member of the game's world. There are no signs of excess or corruption, nor any gross abuse of power on the behalf of individuals. That makes it a perfectly functional communal society - everyone works for the benefit of the group.

Hence... communal dictatorship. And a fully effective and long-lasting one.

It's actually what makes the Qun so appealing to the mass of lower classes. A utilitarian dictatorship, which is based on meritocracy. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

To the lower class and caste, the qun must seem miles better than the aritocrasy that's imposed on every man, woman, and child in thedas today. Anyone on the bottom of the pyrimid who knows of the qun's teachings would be awestruck in what it practices and preaches.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 15 mai 2013 - 08:02 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

StreetMagic wrote...

Hence... communal dictatorship. And a fully effective and long-lasting one.

Too bad Bioware went this route.

It's makes it unquestionable and guileless. Part of my gripe earlier, about not being allowed to engage any real challenge to it.

If that's how they really want to portray it, it'll just push me into being no different than one of those psychotic blood mages. Best to just burn Thedas to the ground. The Darkspawn have the right idea, after all.

It is not unquestionable and guileless, every society has faults, massive ones usually, since nothing is perfect. The key here is just looking deeper than the easy "They're evil and a dictator, look how much their people suffer" route most critiques on regimes use and needing to look at some of the underlying problems in the way they operate.

[Fast Jimmy]

I guess if people like yourself honestly believe that, then it's best to just cut to the chase and let the conflict come to a head. I have no interest in any kind of debate or bridging the gap, what you have to offer or what your virtues are, when there's a fundamental difference at this level. The best thing to do is to get busy fighting each other. Less talk. I'm quite OK with being the ugly human Qunari characters disdain so much.

Well, that is the problem with the Qun. It requires not only zero tolerance for other ways of life, but also has a Manifest Destiny type of doctrine that requires not only acceptance by other groups, but domination and indoctrination of them. So it will result in open, pitched warfare.

That is also its strength, honestly. They design their entire society around indoctrination of both children born into the Qun and new converts, the build up of superior military forces and the most efficient application of resources and supplies. That makes them perfectly equipped to conquer and subjugate effectively and maintain control of areas over the long term.

Declaring your hostility against the Qunari doesn't bother them. You are bas, barely even a being of worth to them. Your role in life is to convert or die. Whether you surrender or die, they have devoted their society's entire existence to processing that choice and keep right on chugging.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 mai 2013 - 08:07 .

[billy the squid]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I guess if people like yourself honestly believe that, then it's best to just cut to the chase and let the conflict come to a head. I have no interest in any kind of debate or bridging the gap, what you have to offer or what your virtues are, when there's a fundamental difference at this level. The best thing to do is to get busy fighting each other. Less talk. I'm quite OK with being the ugly human Qunari characters disdain so much.

Well, that is the problem with the Qun. It requires not only zero tolerance for other ways of life, but also has a Manifest Destiny type of doctrine that requires not only acceptance by other groups, but domination and indoctrination of them. So it will result in open, pitched warfare.

That is also its strength, honestly. They design their entire society around indoctrination of both children born into the Qun and new converts, the build up of superior military forces and the most efficient application of resources and supplies. That makes them perfectly equipped to conquer and subjugate effectively and maintain control of areas over the long term.

Declaring your hostility against the Qunari doesn't bother them. You are bas, barely even a being of worth to them. Your role in life is to convert or die. Whether you surrender or die, they have devoted their society's entire existence to processing that choice and keep right on chugging.

Struggle is an illusion. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. There is nothing to struggle against. Victory is in the Qun.

[billy the squid]

StreetMagic wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I guess if people like yourself honestly believe that, then it's best to just cut to the chase and let the conflict come to a head. I have no interest in any kind of debate or bridging the gap, what you have to offer or what your virtues are, when there's a fundamental difference at this level. The best thing to do is to get busy fighting each other. Less talk. I'm quite OK with being the ugly human Qunari characters disdain so much.

Well, that is the problem with the Qun. It requires not only zero tolerance for other ways of life, but also has a Manifest Destiny type of doctrine that requires not only acceptance by other groups, but domination and indoctrination of them. So it will result in open, pitched warfare.

That is also its strength, honestly. They design their entire society around indoctrination of both children born into the Qun and new converts, the build up of superior military forces and the most efficient application of resources and supplies. That makes them perfectly equipped to conquer and subjugate effectively and maintain control of areas over the long term.

Declaring your hostility against the Qunari doesn't bother them. You are bas, barely even a being of worth to them. Your role in life is to convert or die. Whether you surrender or die, they have devoted their society's entire existence to processing that choice and keep right on chugging.

Struggle is an illusion. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. There is nothing to struggle against. Victory is in the Qun.

What a crock of ****.

You show all the reckless anger of the Bas, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. That is why the system of the Bas should be swept aside as the old and decaying relic it is to bring the enlightenment of the Qun to all, even mages have a place in the Qun.

[Senya]

There are still die-hard Communists in the world, despite its atrocities and poor human rights record. The Qun parallels Communism to a great extent including the central planning of society, disdain for the supernatural, a promise for an utopia, and the promise that through joining, you will be part of a whole and never alone. There is also the disdain for nobility and the rich.

Some people find utopian thinking, no matter the cost, compelling.

[Fast Jimmy]

almostinsane99 wrote...

There are still die-hard Communists in the world, despite its atrocities and poor human rights record. The Qun parallels Communism to a great extent including the central planning of society, disdain for the supernatural, a promise for an utopia, and the promise that through joining, you will be part of a whole and never alone. There is also the disdain for nobility and the rich.

Some people find utopian thinking, no matter the cost, compelling.

Communism was compelling... until it was found to be wasteful, corrupt and woefully inadequate, in addition to being a ravager of the common man's rights, instead of a defender. 

The Qun, on the other hand, is time-tested. That makes it immeasurably more dangerous, both in terms of appeal to converts and the military threat it poses. An entire country designed to conquer and enslave you, with no kinks in the cogs, is the most dangerous force in existence. Couple that with the fact that you have seven foot tall giants who have trained every day of their life for battle and who have, of ALL things, CANNONS... suddenly, it should be abundantly clear that the Mage/Templar War will be a perfect time strike, while Thedas is divided and weakend by infighting. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 mai 2013 - 08:31 .

[billy the squid]

StreetMagic wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

You show all the reckless anger of the Bas, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.

True that. And I'm proud of fumbling in ignorance. At least I'm not b.s.ing myself on that at least.

Of course, after the Chantry finally managed to push back the Qun, they executed all converts and buried them in mass graves. Tell me, who are the murderers, The Chantry and their leashed mages, or the Qunari who accept those who convert, and even those that refuse are not universally executed?

Modifié par billy the squid, 15 mai 2013 - 08:30 .

[Fast Jimmy]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't have to lean on the chantry in this matter (I don't mind them either). To me, the best "symbolic representative" character for my general philosophy is Flemeth. For all her power, she embraces ignorance. "Is it chance or fate, I can never decide." "It's only when you fall that you know if you can fly." And she has experienced regret as well. She's the most down to earth, even she is a Witch of the Wilds.

Yes, yes... it is a good thing Flemeth doesn't capture children, convert them to her way of thinking and take away all of their individuality for her own purposes like the Qun does. That would be outright terrible of her. 

[billy the squid]

Then you embrace individual freedom without restraint, and with no thought of the consequence other than to one's self. That is what Flemeth symbolises, everything she does is a manipulation for her own purpose. In effect the Will to Power.

[Senya]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

There are still die-hard Communists in the world, despite its atrocities and poor human rights record. The Qun parallels Communism to a great extent including the central planning of society, disdain for the supernatural, a promise for an utopia, and the promise that through joining, you will be part of a whole and never alone. There is also the disdain for nobility and the rich.

Some people find utopian thinking, no matter the cost, compelling.

Communism was compelling... until it was found to be wasteful, corrupt and woefully inadequate, in addition to being a ravager of the common man's rights, instead of a defender. 

The Qun, on the other hand, is time-tested. That makes it immeasurably more dangerous, both in terms of appeal to converts and the military threat it poses. An entire country designed to conquer and enslave you, with no kinks in the cogs, is the most dangerous force in existence. Couple that with the fact that you have seven foot tall giants who have trained every day of their life for battle and who have, of ALL things, CANNONS... suddenly, it should be abundantly clear that the Mage/Templar War will be a perfect time strike, while Thedas is divided and weakend by infighting. 

Trust me, a Communist today will steadfastly argue either "Stalin hijacked Communism", "Lenin hijacked Communism", "We are for non-authoritarian Communism", and "The elite/1% are to blame".

A Communist will steadfastly point to the successes of the Qun and say that it's Communism done right, with some apologetic explanations for his downsides, probably blaming the nobility, Chantry, Tevinter or some combination of the three.

The point I'm making is that the Qun and Communism share many ideas, which are compelling to people, which is why in real life, some people support Communism and some players and in-game characters support the Qun in Dragon Age.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 15 mai 2013 - 08:43 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

almostinsane99 wrote...

There are still die-hard Communists in the world, despite its atrocities and poor human rights record. The Qun parallels Communism to a great extent including the central planning of society, disdain for the supernatural, a promise for an utopia, and the promise that through joining, you will be part of a whole and never alone. There is also the disdain for nobility and the rich.

Some people find utopian thinking, no matter the cost, compelling.

There havn't been a truly communistic state yet, in the history of mankind. That is why there are still some communists out there, because they believe that the ideal is worth pursuing.

[billy the squid]

StreetMagic wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't have to lean on the chantry in this matter (I don't mind them either). To me, the best "symbolic representative" character for my general philosophy is Flemeth. For all her power, she embraces ignorance. "Is it chance or fate, I can never decide." "It's only when you fall that you know if you can fly." And she has experienced regret as well. She's the most down to earth, even she is a Witch of the Wilds.

Yes, yes... it is a good thing Flemeth doesn't capture children, convert them to her way of thinking and take away all of their individuality for her own purposes like the Qun does. That would be outright terrible of her. 

She doesn't raise them to her way of thinking. She doesn't really disclose her true way of thinking. She laughs herself on Sundermount about she raised Morrigan to be so arrogant and self-concerned. That's just a method to teach those children survival skills.. an insurance policy of sorts, that they last for awhile. Ultimately though Flemeth is an entirely different person than what she teaches.

Anyways, not meant to derail, but that's my take.

Of course she doesn't. She's going to possess that child's body at some point anyway. And she has no intention of giving anyone else an knowledge that isn't to further her own goals, she is a nihilistic, narcissist driven by the Will to Power.

[billy the squid]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

There are still die-hard Communists in the world, despite its atrocities and poor human rights record. The Qun parallels Communism to a great extent including the central planning of society, disdain for the supernatural, a promise for an utopia, and the promise that through joining, you will be part of a whole and never alone. There is also the disdain for nobility and the rich.

Some people find utopian thinking, no matter the cost, compelling.

Communism was compelling... until it was found to be wasteful, corrupt and woefully inadequate, in addition to being a ravager of the common man's rights, instead of a defender. 

The Qun, on the other hand, is time-tested. That makes it immeasurably more dangerous, both in terms of appeal to converts and the military threat it poses. An entire country designed to conquer and enslave you, with no kinks in the cogs, is the most dangerous force in existence. Couple that with the fact that you have seven foot tall giants who have trained every day of their life for battle and who have, of ALL things, CANNONS... suddenly, it should be abundantly clear that the Mage/Templar War will be a perfect time strike, while Thedas is divided and weakend by infighting. 

Trust me, a Communist today will steadfastly argue either "Stalin hijacked Communism", "Lenin hijacked Communism", "We are for non-authoritarian Communism", and "The elite/1% are to blame".

A Communist will steadfastly point to the successes of the Qun and say that it's Communism done right, with some apologetic explanations for his downsides, probably blaming the nobility, Chantry, Tevinter or some combination of the three.

The point I'm making is that the Qun and Communism share many ideas, which are compelling to people, which is why in real life, some people support Communism and some players and in-game characters support the Qun in Dragon Age.

The lack of understanding astounds me. Communism as an ideology is inherrently unworkable in it's pure form, the same as Democracies, Autocracies, Theocracies, Capatilist and Fascism, namely due to the inherrent flaws in people. Communism in the USSR changed very little, the higher echelons of the political system were removed and replaced by a single party state, which then purged vast sections of the population and pushed the country from feudalism to industrialisation. 

In effect the "Communism" of the USSR wasn't the Political child of Karl Marx, it was a 1 party dictatorship, using the mass of peasants asan industrialised labour force, their situation improved through industrialisation, not because of the political system. And it wasn't that much of an improvement.

The Qun, is not close in anyway to the real world Communist regimes of the 20th Century.

Modifié par billy the squid, 15 mai 2013 - 08:56 .

[nightscrawl]

I think you're thinking too much about this, to be honest. It could simply be a matter of the devs wanting this type of culture, with the potential to be an adversary for the PC, and also with the inherent "alien-ness" of a culture so different from anything else in Thedas, or the real world.

In short, it works because the devs say it does. Why is it possible to suspend belief for magic, dragons, and the like, but not with a foreign culture?