169 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

nightscrawl wrote...

In short, it works because the devs say it does. Why is it possible to suspend belief for magic, dragons, and the like, but not with a foreign culture?

Because I expect Magic to be Magical, but I expect people to act like people.

[Sjpelke]

StreetMagic wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't have to lean on the chantry in this matter (I don't mind them either). To me, the best "symbolic representative" character for my general philosophy is Flemeth. For all her power, she embraces ignorance. "Is it chance or fate, I can never decide." "It's only when you fall that you know if you can fly." And she has experienced regret as well. She's the most down to earth, even she is a Witch of the Wilds.

Yes, yes... it is a good thing Flemeth doesn't capture children, convert them to her way of thinking and take away all of their individuality for her own purposes like the Qun does. That would be outright terrible of her. 

She doesn't raise them to her way of thinking. She doesn't really disclose her true way of thinking. She laughs herself on Sundermount about she raised Morrigan to be so arrogant and self-concerned. That's just a method to teach those children survival skills.. an insurance policy of sorts, that they last for awhile. Ultimately though Flemeth is an entirely different person than what she teaches.

Anyways, not meant to derail, but that's my take.

Of course she doesn't. She's going to possess that child's body at some point anyway. And she has no intention of giving anyone else an knowledge that isn't to further her own goals, she is a nihilistic, narcissist driven by the Will to Power.

Not sure what power she really wants. She mostly just wants to chill and isolate herself and eat stew.

Or is very manipulative..

To bend people to her will by letting them think they decided what she fed them, being their own decisions instead of what she intends them to do...

[Cainhurst Crow]

Wulfram wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

In short, it works because the devs say it does. Why is it possible to suspend belief for magic, dragons, and the like, but not with a foreign culture?

Because I expect Magic to be Magical, but I expect people to act like people.

And how exactly do people act like? Are we judgeing it by how our people, who have had centuries of guiding men of power adopt a philosophy of individualism and that the single persons freedom is more important than the good of the whole? Or are we judegeing this based on some neutral society where centuries of intellectual cultivation have not guided it onto a path of emphasising naturally divined freedoms and rights over any and all other beliefs? Does such a neutral, unaffected culture of humanity even exist who wasn't influenced by lockean style philosophy and thought at this point?

Frankly, I don't see how the qunari do not act as a people outside of them not acting like our people.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 15 mai 2013 - 11:41 .

[Sjpelke]

As for the Qunari and the Kossith..

From what we have seen from the Kossith it has probably been a very structured race from the start with clear borders between 'classes' and whatever is connected to that.

Their 'bible' is what is written down and that is what the head honcho of the delegation in DA2 is looking for because it was stolen from them. The fact that their whole society could fall because of that fact makes me feel that it is not that strong to begin with. The need of having something solid like that to look at, although they know by heart what is written there, does not speak of being very confident.

If their 'god' is still alive? Could be when using (blood) magick or being an elf that still has eternal life...

[Wulfram]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Because I expect Magic to be Magical, but I expect people to act like people.

Qunari aren't humans.

True, but the Qun is depicted as having attraction and success outside of the Oxmen.  And we have little indication that their thought processes are fundamentally alien

[Cainhurst Crow]

TsadeeHekate wrote...

As for the Qunari and the Kossith..

From what we have seen from the Kossith it has probably been a very structured race from the start with clear borders between 'classes' and whatever is connected to that.

Their 'bible' is what is written down and that is what the head honcho of the delegation in DA2 is looking for because it was stolen from them. The fact that their whole society could fall because of that fact makes me feel that it is not that strong to begin with. The need of having something solid like that to look at, although they know by heart what is written there, does not speak of being very confident.

If their 'god' is still alive? Could be when using (blood) magick or being an elf that still has eternal life...

I viewed it more as a matter of pure principal and honor than anything else. It's the same as language, qunari who can speak a second language often feel ashamed when speaking to foreigners, not because of their knowledge, but their lack of perfection in that knowledge.(this came from the wiki)

So imagine the utter shame and humiliation it is for the arashok, the military leader of the qunari, to loose such an important artifact for his people. Sten thought of becoming a tal-vashoth because he lost his sword. Imagine what they would befall the entire military unit serving the arashok if he returned to his people without their sacrade text.

You don't need magic in order to install a sense of honor and shame into someone. And you don't need magic to get someone crazy enough to wage a long occupation and war over trying to get it back.

[Sjpelke]

Wulfram wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Because I expect Magic to be Magical, but I expect people to act like people.

Qunari aren't humans.

True, but the Qun is depicted as having attraction and success outside of the Oxmen.  And we have little indication that their thought processes are fundamentally alien

They aren't....

The Qun gains followers but also loses them on the way though just like any form of cult/believe or whatever which does not make it perfect.

When someone is not happy with what they have they start looking at the neighbours grass; if that is greener or not. If it is then they might be on to something and could be worth looking into.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Wulfram wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

In short, it works because the devs say it does. Why is it possible to suspend belief for magic, dragons, and the like, but not with a foreign culture?

Because I expect Magic to be Magical, but I expect people to act like people.

There are rebels against the Qun, and the demand of the Arishok not to bother going back home (or even leave Kirkwall, which is in many ways an antithesis of Par Vollen) without that Tome drives him insane. Does that count?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

StreetMagic wrote...

Not to point out the obvious, but they are fictional characters. Not people. We have no reference for actual people other than ourselves. I refuse to let the human race be equated with some video game concept.

Secondly, Gaider himself has said they're like "Militant Islamic Borg".

Only reason why they garner any strong defense at all is because some of you. Technically, they're not supposed to be all that worthy of support. It's like a segment of players have developed some bizarre form of Stockholm Syndrome and defend this nonsense just to play out their "I'm so different" fantasy. Real life Seamuses, I guess.

Not all of it's that bad. They have equality*, merit based leadership*,  healthcare for the elderly and disabled, an injuction against wasting any useful resources, and the best technology of any group introduced. It's just that I think the bad outweighs the good.

*At least in theory.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wow, you really have an intolerance of other people's ideas if they don't align with your own StreetMagic... Maybe you should shove that pineapple up your own ass? (See? We can all act all tough and badass, but that doesn't add anything to the conversationat hand... Maybe we should try and have this conversation at an actually intellectual level?)

[billy the squid]

StreetMagic wrote...

Not to point out the obvious, but they are fictional characters. Not people. And not a real culture. We have no reference for actual people other than ourselves. I refuse to let the human race be equated and measured and judged with some video game concept. I'm a nerd, but not that big of a nerd.

Secondly, Gaider himself has said they're like "Militant Islamic Borg".

Only reason why they garner any strong defense at all is because some of you. Technically, they're not supposed to be all that worthy of support. That is, unless you like militant islamic borg. It's like a segment of players have developed some bizarre form of
Stockholm Syndrome and defend this nonsense just to play out their "I'm
so different" fantasy. Real life Seamuses, I guess.

Probably a good idea to remove that stick from up your arse.

Mages and the Chantry aren't worthy of support either. Mages are inherrently dangerous, corrosive to society and potentially such a threat they can be a bring an entire state into a conflict. While the Chantry are a militant fundamentalist theocracy. Existing in a world where the Feudal state is so unbalanced and the peasant masses starve and die in filth and ignorance, while nepotism rules the higher echelons of society. Yep, completely worth defending the status quo, because of freedom, freedom to starve. 

It's that bizarre idea that "freedom" is something to strive for aginst everything when looking at the system without the rose tinted glasses shows it to be inherrently worse and corrupt than the "evil authoritarian" Qun.

The Qun is a way of life and thinking that encompases Qunari society. 

The Qunari aren't inherrently racist or xenophobic, there is the Bas and the Qunari, that's all. It's based on meritocracy driven by utilitarianist ideology, not the aquisition of wealth or power, the drive is to equate one's self with the whole and the benefit of all members of the Qun. While they are the most advanced and enlightened of all the races and place people on their ability and, the Qun do not waste resources in petty wars of self agrandisement.

So all you're left with in your argument is "but they're authorative and militant" like the Tevinter Imperium, Chantry, Feudal society. Which weren't oppressive in anyway. 

No one said they weren't a dictatorship, they're a benevolent one, and one which brings more benefits that anything the other nations have. You're freedoms don't amount to much when they're an illusion. 

[Fast Jimmy]

StreetMagic wrote...

Not to point out the obvious, but they are fictional characters. Not people. And not a real culture. We have no reference for actual people other than ourselves. I refuse to let the human race be equated and measured and judged with some video game concept. I'm a nerd, but not that big of a nerd.

Secondly, Gaider himself has said they're like "Militant Islamic Borg".

Only reason why they garner any strong defense at all is because some of you. Technically, they're not supposed to be all that worthy of support. That is, unless you like militant islamic borg. It's like a segment of players have developed some bizarre form of
Stockholm Syndrome and defend this nonsense just to play out their "I'm
so different" fantasy. Real life Seamuses, I guess.

Do you have reasons you dislike the Qun? I'm hardly a fan of defender of them, but I've really only see you call them evil without a true explanation why.

Also, do you have a problem with the military, the Islamic religion or synthetic intelligences?

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Well, what about artificial intelligences? Where do you come down on that one?

[Epic777]

Wow, I am surprised anyone sees this(The Qun) as so irrational and unbelievable especially in a fantasy game. It has shades of Spartan society which in periods flushed.

Modifié par Epic777, 16 mai 2013 - 02:11 .

[brushyourteeth]

This is really interesting. It does seem strange that this one philosophy (classified as a religion by the developers, though we've never seen much that's supernatural about it) has such a stranglehold on qunari society, and even people who weren't born to it find it so compelling.

Magic touches nearly every issue in DA, so it rather makes sense for it to be a part of this one. The Koslun as a mage theory... I don't know. The Qun is awfully brutal to mages, although I suppose that could be explained as Koslun never wanting any competition. But for such a strong-willed people to bow to complete control like that, it does seem strange. It's hard to even speculate properly because we know so little about it, but you may be on to something there.

... how much would the qunari freak out if they suddenly realized they'd been under demonic influence this entire time?