Guest_StreetMagic_*
Modifié par StreetMagic, 16 mai 2013 - 02:21 .
brushyourteeth wrote...
This is really interesting. It does seem strange that this one philosophy (classified as a religion by the developers, though we've never seen much that's supernatural about it) has such a stranglehold on qunari society, and even people who weren't born to it find it so compelling.
Magic touches nearly every issue in DA, so it rather makes sense for it to be a part of this one. The Koslun as a mage theory... I don't know. The Qun is awfully brutal to mages, although I suppose that could be explained as Koslun never wanting any competition. But for such a strong-willed people to bow to complete control like that, it does seem strange. It's hard to even speculate properly because we know so little about it, but you may be on to something there.
... how much would the qunari freak out if they suddenly realized they'd been under demonic influence this entire time?
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Modifié par TsadeeHekate, 16 mai 2013 - 02:42 .
Hey, I live in that exact city ^^StreetMagic wrote...
Only reason why they garner any strong defense at all is because some of you. Technically, they're not supposed to be all that worthy of support. That is, unless you like militant islamic borg. It's like a segment of players have developed some bizarre form of
Stockholm Syndrome and defend this nonsense just to play out their "I'm
so different" fantasy. Real life Seamuses, I guess.
The idea here is that they wouldn't be particularly strong-willed at all (and they don't seem to be when not dealing with issues directly involving the Qun, given the clear tendency of qunari soldiers to go ape**** when they lose whatever allegedly sacred items they have on them), it'd just be magical reinforcement. But yes, I anticipate major freaking out.brushyourteeth wrote...
This is really interesting. It does seem strange that this one philosophy (classified as a religion by the developers, though we've never seen much that's supernatural about it) has such a stranglehold on qunari society, and even people who weren't born to it find it so compelling.
Magic touches nearly every issue in DA, so it rather makes sense for it to be a part of this one. The Koslun as a mage theory... I don't know. The Qun is awfully brutal to mages, although I suppose that could be explained as Koslun never wanting any competition. But for such a strong-willed people to bow to complete control like that, it does seem strange. It's hard to even speculate properly because we know so little about it, but you may be on to something there.
... how much would the qunari freak out if they suddenly realized they'd been under demonic influence this entire time?
It's not believable to me in the slightest; the only way it could possibly work out is if it has a tiny minority of humans, who use hideous punishments on dissidents (just like Isabela's mother, as a matter of fact). Exciting and interesting, to be sure... as an implacable enemy that must be stopped at all costs.Seriously though, no matter what words Gaider uses to describe the
Qunari when speaking as himself, he still seems to want to flesh out a
believable society for them. And yes, to me it is indeed believable.
Exciting and interesting, even! =)
Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 mai 2013 - 12:02 .
Oh, that's easy: either they're fanatical personally or living under threat of the aforementioned hideous punishments. However, extrapolating from this, it'd mean that there are many, many qunari who would just love a chance to escape their own society if they ever found a means to do so and a viable alternative.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That you find it unbelieveable ultimately means little. Many also find it unbelievable that some islamic women, wear their burka of their own free will, yet it happens. I personally find it unbelieveable that the CoD game series can be that popular with so little innovation, yet I can see that they are, and I don't have to go introduce any sort of wild conspiracy theories, to try and explain the phenomenon.
Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 mai 2013 - 12:12 .
And for those who wish to leave the Qun, but don't have the necessary courage/circumstance/etc? As for fanaticism, the problem comes from spreading their beliefs to others... especially their own children, which I consider nothing short of atrocity.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Fanatism is a conotation used to deflame a belief you don't share with the subject. I don't really care for that, if they have made the choice of their own free will, they are free to do so. If I was to try and stop them, I would be the oppressor. Qunari are all born and bred to believe in the Qun, and they do so of their own free will. The ones who don't are not Qunari, they are Vasoth.
That'd be horrible. Bioware has destroyed enough plots with bull****, supernatural nonsense.What if the Qun itself is supernatural?
I see you have tiptoed away from Billy the Squid's post.StreetMagic wrote...
-snip-
All it takes to leave the Qun is simply to start walking. And it is impossible to avoid imposing your own beliefs on your children. You sound like one who wishes for them to grow up and make their own choices, but even then you are imposing a way of life on them. Children will always be influenced by their surroundings. It is simply unavoidable.Xilizhra wrote...
And for those who wish to leave the Qun, but don't have the necessary courage/circumstance/etc? As for fanaticism, the problem comes from spreading their beliefs to others... especially their own children, which I consider nothing short of atrocity.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Fanatism is a conotation used to deflame a belief you don't share with the subject. I don't really care for that, if they have made the choice of their own free will, they are free to do so. If I was to try and stop them, I would be the oppressor. Qunari are all born and bred to believe in the Qun, and they do so of their own free will. The ones who don't are not Qunari, they are Vasoth.
Egalitarian? Hah. Tell that to any mage involved. Also, the Qun is far more religiously fundamentalist than even the Chantry, which at least doesn't turn up the indoctrination meter quite that high.In a society with rampant inequality, racism, bigotry, religious fundamentalism and corrupt feudal rule it's only natural that the common citizen would find an ordered,advanced, egalitarian society alluring.
If they start walking, the antaam will likely stop them; those who leave the Qun will be Tal-Vashoth and are thus instantly marked for death. And there are some surroundings better for children than others; teaching them that they should be forced into submission based on gender is unconscionable and a terrible crime.All it takes to leave the Qun is simply to start walking. And it is impossible to avoid imposing your own beliefs on your children. You sound like one who wishes for them to grow up and make their own choices, but even then you are imposing a way of life on them. Children will always be influenced by their surroundings. It is simply unavoidable.
I suppose I have to concede that mages do indeed have a seemingly less enjoyable life under the Qun in comparison to other Qunari. Egalitarian for for the overwhelming majority of the population and vastly more egalitarian than the rest of Thedas society would be a better assessment.Xilizhra wrote...
Egalitarian? Hah. Tell that to any mage involved.In a society with rampant inequality, racism, bigotry, religious fundamentalism and corrupt feudal rule it's only natural that the common citizen would find an ordered,advanced, egalitarian society alluring.
The Qunari have yet to display any "religious" beliefs. They are indeed fundamental but you know the saying about rocks and glass houses.Also, the Qun is far more religiously fundamentalist than even the Chantry, which at least doesn't turn up the indoctrination meter quite that high.
Again, if you leave, you die.No one is forcing them. They themselves BELIVE it to be so. You don't, they do, what you believe is insignificant, you are not Qunari.
Aveline, if living under the Qun, would never be able to serve in her own vocation because of gender. Also, the Dalish seem more egalitarian overall, as even a human joining them is offered an equal place there.I suppose I have to concede that mages do indeed have a seemingly less enjoyable life under the Qun in comparison to other Qunari. Egalitarian for for the overwhelming majority of the population and vastly more egalitarian than the rest of Thedas society would be a better assessment.
They believe that material objects can be literally conflated with souls.The Qunari have yet to display any "religious" beliefs. They are indeed fundamental but you know the saying about rocks and glass houses.
Nor would many males. It's not a rule I agree with however it is fair and does not hold one sex to be inherently better than the other as a whole.Xilizhra wrote...
Aveline, if living under the Qun, would never be able to serve in her own vocation because of gender.
The Dalish are xenophobic isolationists whose leadership is dependent on magical power. One clan's treatment of Feynriel is likely not a common representation of all Dalish clans.Also, the Dalish seem more egalitarian overall, as even a human joining them is offered an equal place there.
Need more information to determine whether this is a literal belief or just a culturally embedded value.They believe that material objects can be literally conflated with souls.
Perhaps not, but we know there are better ways to combat poverty and starvation than the Qun. And you assume that the Qun has none of either, when simple logistics and lack of advanced technology ensure that some will exist.Nor would many males. It's not a rule I agree with however it is fair and does not hold one sex to be inherently better than the other as a whole.
Certainly not the type of thing a commoner is going to care about when the alternative is poverty and starvation.
Power seems to be shared between the mage Keeper and nonmage Hahren, DA2 just diluted the nuances of leadership that we saw as compared to the Dalish origin in DAO. And given what human societies tend to do to them, I can't say that their xenophobia is unjustified (for instance, just having Keepers would likely get them all killed by templars if the templars caught them).The Dalish are xenophobic isolationists whose leadership is dependent on magical power. One clan's treatment of Feynriel is likely not a common representation of all Dalish clans.
It's literal enough to kill for.Need more information to determine whether this is a literal belief or just a culturally embedded value.
Modifié par billy the squid, 16 mai 2013 - 01:46 .
Access to more advanced medicine and accessibility to food being dependent on need not wealth ensure that famine would be far less common.Xilizhra wrote...
Perhaps not, but we know there are better ways to combat poverty and starvation than the Qun. And you assume that the Qun has none of either, when simple logistics and lack of advanced technology ensure that some will exist.
The qunari are magically ignorant. They hold beliefs as deranged as "speaking to a free mage will make me possessed by a demon." They're utterly without knowledge on anything to do with magic or mages, governed completely by superstitions so base it seriously calls any claims of "enlightenment" into question.Mages, well considering the potentially insidious corrosive nature of magic users and the potential to usurp power beyond what a single individual could normally hope to achieve, their threat is mitigated by the Qun. It's a necessary evil. As to the Chantry, well executing opponents on mass is their usual mode of operation, which sets them apart from the Qun, in that they are theocratic fanatics, while the Qunari are a militant authoritarian meritocracy.
The qunari have a very simple way of dealing with these people: if they break from a qunari role, they're Tal-Vashoth and they're simply killed.There are likely to be no beggers thieves and criminals. They're put to use, the Qun doesn't waste resources.
What also ensures that famine is far less common is having a population and territory spread over all of two islands, and only part of the second one. Also, how much of the medicine and suchlike did the qunari actually develop, and not just inherit from their progenitor culture (or perhaps not a progenitor so much as one that just kicked the qunari off of their home continent)?Access to more advanced medicine and accessibility to food being dependent on need not wealth ensure that famine would be far less common.
Modifié par Cirram55, 16 mai 2013 - 02:02 .
Xilizhra wrote...
The qunari are magically ignorant. They hold beliefs as deranged as "speaking to a free mage will make me possessed by a demon." They're utterly without knowledge on anything to do with magic or mages, governed completely by superstitions so base it seriously calls any claims of "enlightenment" into question.Mages, well considering the potentially insidious corrosive nature of magic users and the potential to usurp power beyond what a single individual could normally hope to achieve, their threat is mitigated by the Qun. It's a necessary evil. As to the Chantry, well executing opponents on mass is their usual mode of operation, which sets them apart from the Qun, in that they are theocratic fanatics, while the Qunari are a militant authoritarian meritocracy.
The qunari have a very simple way of dealing with these people: if they break from a qunari role, they're Tal-Vashoth and they're simply killed.There are likely to be no beggers thieves and criminals. They're put to use, the Qun doesn't waste resources.
What also ensures that famine is far less common is having a population and territory spread over all of two islands, and only part of the second one. Also, how much of the medicine and suchlike did the qunari actually develop, and not just inherit from their progenitor culture (or perhaps not a progenitor so much as one that just kicked the qunari off of their home continent)?Access to more advanced medicine and accessibility to food being dependent on need not wealth ensure that famine would be far less common.
Modifié par billy the squid, 16 mai 2013 - 02:17 .
Er... no, it's really not. The use of blood magic might be, but the qunari don't even seem to know what it is, instead just saying that magic in general does so, which is completely untrue. Also, the qunari don't seem to comprehend the idea that you need evidence before you condemn someone.The Qunari couldn't have possible had experience with blood magic at any point in their history right? The mistrust and opinion of Qunari that mages are corrupting or potentially outright dangerous. Is perfectly grounded in factual history and the events.
There's a difference between a lack of any restraint at all, and being a brainwashed prisoner inside your own body. Another thing that the Qun doesn't comprehend.There method of dealing with it, is not to execute them, but to place constraints for the greater good. The concept of individual freedom without restraint is anarchic and chaos. The Chantry would simply execute any mage outside the circle. The Qun does not immediately.
I think they can't really "convert" after their minds have been ripped apart.No they don't the Qun doesn't waste resources. Those that don't convert are either killed when resisting or re educated and placed into labour camps, where they can be productive and inducted into the Qun if possible.
Yes, so in that, they're just equals to the qunari.The Chantry their staple approach is purges and mass murderers, they're guilty of genocide after purging the lands taken by the Qunari where they forcably re converted the population and murdered anyone who wouldn't, burying them in mass graves
Demons are an external force, not part of magical corruption. Tevinter culture, while malevolent, is quite stable. This "hedge mage" thing is something I've never heard of. And the qunari are outright wrong.Er it really is. The history of Tevinter, Mages being possessed by demons, hedge Mages using their powers to control small villages and move themselves into places of power, that's not even mentioning blood magic. There's all the reason the Qun needs to see magic users as inherrently dangerous to all around them. Evidence is nice, yet the evidence is usually a body count. Hence the Qunari don't wait for things to get out of control.
Their magical incompetence is why they lost their initial war. And probably why they'll fail to conquer Thedas again.Well the restraints on Mages in Thedas haven't worked at all have they, the constrainst of the Qun. Have proved effective.
But the qunari have no qualms about killing anyone who resists.They've been inducted into the Qun, they may only ever occupy the lower class, but they are not executed outright. And the enforced re education using chemicals is again the last option, the Qunari don't destroy what they can use.
It's not actually a theocracy (actually, it's less of one than the Qun), and the way the qunari "enforce" this is abhorrent.Hardly, the Chantry enforces a feudal theocracy, that sees over 90% of the population forced into an oppressed ignorant mass, left to starve or die as their nepotist masters see fit. The Qun enforce the greater utility and advanced civilisation through force, yet that society is far in advance on anything found in Thedas.
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