169 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

And for those who wish to leave the Qun, but don't have the necessary courage/circumstance/etc? As for fanaticism, the problem comes from spreading their beliefs to others... especially their own children, which I consider nothing short of atrocity.

 That is absolutely hilarious.

Don't share your beliefs with children? You may as well throw them out of the house. 

Honesty, honor, ethics, manners, self-discipline, compassion, empathy-what those mean to you and how you value them are BELIEFS.  But you would have me not pass those on to my children? What is parent supposed to do then, feed them and house them but never speak to them about anything? Wow. 

[Xilizhra]

So if you ever have children, you don't intend to tell them any of your beliefs? Hide your wife or girlfriend from them (because that's a "belief")? Equally show liberal and conservative news on the television, radio, whatever?

Sharing one's beliefs with progeny is natural.

I don't plan on indoctrinating them with a single way to think about spiritual matters, which is what we were discussing in this context. There's a difference between them happening to figure out what your beliefs are and you outright programming them into something.

It doesn't matter if it's justified or not. It's still wrong.

Andrastian supporters who say this may wish to, before worrying about the dust mote in the Dalish eye, worry about the plank in their own.

Honesty, honor, ethics, manners, self-discipline, compassion,
empathy-what those mean to you and how you value them are BELIEFS.  But
you would have me not pass those on to my children? What is parent
supposed to do then, feed them and house them but never speak to them
about anything? Wow.

Thank you for the reductio ad absurdum. My opposition here is programming them into religious beliefs, primarily.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 mai 2013 - 03:54 .

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Er it really is. The history of Tevinter, Mages being possessed by demons, hedge Mages using their powers to control small villages and move themselves into places of power, that's not even mentioning blood magic. There's all the reason the Qun needs to see magic users as inherrently dangerous to all around them. Evidence is nice, yet the evidence is usually a body count. Hence the Qunari don't wait for things to get out of control.

Demons are an external force, not part of magical corruption. Tevinter culture, while malevolent, is quite stable. This "hedge mage" thing is something I've never heard of. And the qunari are outright wrong.

Well the restraints on Mages in Thedas haven't worked at all have they, the constrainst of the Qun. Have proved effective.

Their magical incompetence is why they lost their initial war. And probably why they'll fail to conquer Thedas again.

They've been inducted into the Qun, they may only ever occupy the lower class, but they are not executed outright. And the enforced re education using chemicals is again the last option, the Qunari don't destroy what they can use.

But the qunari have no qualms about killing anyone who resists.

Hardly, the Chantry enforces a feudal theocracy, that sees over 90% of the population forced into an oppressed ignorant mass, left to starve or die as their nepotist masters see fit. The Qun enforce the greater utility and advanced civilisation through force, yet that society is far in advance on anything found in Thedas.

It's not actually a theocracy (actually, it's less of one than the Qun), and the way the qunari "enforce" this is abhorrent.

Demons, an outside force which is intrinsicly linked to mages and magic. No dice on that one. Tevinter, you mean the society with a totaliatrian magical dictatorship which is based on slavery for the agrandisement of Mages at the expense of all other members of society, yep, something to aspire to. And it's not stable it's in a state of war and losing to the Qunari.

Hedge mages, ie: anyone outside the circle, or maleficar as the Chantry calls them

And saying something is wrong doesn't make it so, as much as you might wish it.

They lost the war in Thedas as the entire continent moved against them, under Chantry control. Magic hasn't helped the Tevinter Imperium hold off the Qunari. So magic means little when the civilisation is inherrently more advanced in everyway. 

While killing the Bas is sometimes necessary, it's not their prefered method. And I suppose Mages, the Chantry, Orlais, Tevinter or any of the other nations and organisations don't kill people who resist... oh wait. The latter is a culture of self agrandisement and selfishness, the Qun is not. That's the difference.

It's a theocracy. It follows the teachings and control of the Divine and the religious dogma. The Qun is an authorotarian meritocracy. They are entirely different. It's "enforced" in no more of an aborrent way than every organisation in Thedas enforces it's own social structures, to say otherwise is rank hypocrisy.

[Xilizhra]

So if they happen to play with some kids from a monotheistic religion and want to go to their church, you'll let them? To not do so would be artificially restricting their beliefs, wouldn't it?

Why wouldn't I? Although a child volunteering to go to church might make me suspect blood magic.

Wrongdoing is never right, regardless of how much fault is on the other side.

True, but I'm more inclined to worry about the larger problems in a world full of huge ones.

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

Honesty, honor, ethics, manners, self-discipline, compassion,
empathy-what those mean to you and how you value them are BELIEFS.  But
you would have me not pass those on to my children? What is parent
supposed to do then, feed them and house them but never speak to them
about anything? Wow.

Thank you for the reductio ad absurdum. My opposition here is programming them into religious beliefs, primarily.

"Hey son, I think you should do your best to tell the truth, even if you are surrounded by liars. You shouldn't steal, even if there is no possibility of being caught. I won't tell you why though. That'd be an atrocity!"

By saying religious beliefs, you're drawing an artificial line where none exists. All of those values are instrumental in pretty much all major religions. You're telling me that'd it be an ATROCITY to share my values with my children-oh nvm only some of them. Which doesn't work. Values are not standalone ideas or concepts. They are a network of both the "whats" and the "whys" behind behaviors and outlooks, and by cutting out religion you'd be eliminating a pretty significant chunk of them. 

All of that is besides your amazing presumption on how children should be raised. Maybe the atrocity is your opinion.

And you're welcome. 

[Xilizhra]

By saying religious beliefs, you're drawing an artificial line where none exists. All of those values are instrumental in pretty much all major religions. You're telling me that'd it be an ATROCITY to share my values with my children-oh nvm only some of them. Which doesn't work. Values are not standalone ideas or concepts. They are a network of both the "whats" and the "whys" behind behaviors and outlooks, and by cutting out religion you'd be eliminating a pretty significant chunk of them.

This only matters if you believe that only theists can be moral. Which is itself absurd. Also, the "atrocity" part, if you actually read it in context, was about fanatics telling their children to submit and degrade themselves based on gender.

[Xilizhra]

May depend on the social situation. Kids in very very poor, Section 8 type housing, where mom has a new boyfriend every week and "dad" is a more of a concept than a person, would enjoy the love that can come from a church.

Personal experience. Not me, but personal experience.

Rather akin to the Qun's lure, there. Thankfully, I need never worry about having children unplanned.

I would like to point out that in your original statement you didn't specify that, Xil. Only after the fact.

"As for fanaticism, the problem comes from spreading their beliefs to others... especially their own children, which I consider nothing short of atrocity."
But yes, I've clarified that which I found most objectionable about said fanaticism.

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

By saying religious beliefs, you're drawing an artificial line where none exists. All of those values are instrumental in pretty much all major religions. You're telling me that'd it be an ATROCITY to share my values with my children-oh nvm only some of them. Which doesn't work. Values are not standalone ideas or concepts. They are a network of both the "whats" and the "whys" behind behaviors and outlooks, and by cutting out religion you'd be eliminating a pretty significant chunk of them.

This only matters if you believe that only theists can be moral. Which is itself absurd. Also, the "atrocity" part, if you actually read it in context, was about fanatics telling their children to submit and degrade themselves based on gender.

 Uh oh, straw man time!

I did not say only theists could be moral. But theism is a major drive that makes no small amount of moral people moral. Yes, there are immoral theists, but from what I've seen from theist and other than theist groups, I'll take my chances with it. You could try to discredit me on the basis of bias, but the same argument would apply to you. 

So your issue is now with gender roles? Eh. They are what they are. 

[Xilizhra]

I did not say only theists could be moral. But theism is a major drive that makes no small amount of moral people moral. Yes, there are immoral theists, but from what I've seen from theist and other than theist groups, I'll take my chances with it. You could try to discredit me on the basis of bias, but the same argument would apply to you.

I'd be more inclined to listen if I thought you were a particularly moral person, which I've seen a fair bit of counterevidence for.

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

I did not say only theists could be moral. But theism is a major drive that makes no small amount of moral people moral. Yes, there are immoral theists, but from what I've seen from theist and other than theist groups, I'll take my chances with it. You could try to discredit me on the basis of bias, but the same argument would apply to you.

I'd be more inclined to listen if I thought you were a particularly moral person, which I've seen a fair bit of counterevidence for.

What can I say? Certain people are really good at bringing out the worst in you. Especially those "fanatical" ones.

Also, I may be more moral than you think. Morality is, in large part, refusal to rationalize that which you view as twisted and perverse.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Xilizhra wrote...

No one is forcing them. They themselves BELIVE it to be so. You don't, they do, what you believe is insignificant, you are not Qunari.

Again, if you leave, you die.

.

No, you don't.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Also I'm not even sure the qunari can be affected by magic the same way others can. I mean, remember when sten was sent into the fade? He knew already, without any intervention from the warden, that he was inside the fade, and that it was an illusion. He just stayed because he enjoyed it.

Maybe sten is just awesome special that way, but I think there can be a case made that qunari may have a tolerance against mind altering magics.

[Xilizhra]

They aren't drawn to a rigorous societal structure, they're drawn to love. I've seen no love in the Qun, personally.

The point is that the poor and downtrodden have a tendency to jump at salvation in whatever form.

And it's less unplanned and more uncaring. But even then you're exempt of course.

Indeed. Being forced to get to know children before adopting them is something that I consider a plus.

No, you don't.

Tal-Vashoth are axed automatically.

Also I'm not even sure the
qunari can be affected by magic the same way others can. I mean,
remember when sten was sent into the fade? He knew already, without any
intervention from the warden, that he was inside the fade, and that it
was an illusion. He just stayed because he enjoyed it.

The others weren't in situations that were downright impossible, except for the PC, who also saw through the deception.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 mai 2013 - 04:52 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

@Xilizhra

I have yet to see any evidence to support your assertion of that. You are free to leave the qun, but don't expect to live in the place and become a burdan onto society. You can go anywhere else, but you can't keep living under the protection of the qun if you do not worship it as well. Similar to the chantry really, they wouldn't let a heathen stay in their church before they kicked them to the curb. Tal-vashoth are violent individuals who take up banditry and mercenary work against the qunari, but regular vashoth? No, they don't get killed. And the qunari don't even actively look for tal-vashoth to kill, otherwise the wounded coast would not have had a colony of them living there at all, because the qunari would have hunted them down and slaughtered them.
 
It's like how every other culture in thedas deals witn bandits, or are you saying their being oppresive evil fanatics for killing people who decide to kill and steal from innocent people to make a living and actively work to fight against their former comrades for coin or beliefs.

They wouldn't kill you because you left, because that would be a waste of resources. They would kill you if you did something to try and sabotauge the qun, such as stealing a manifest of sleeper agents to sell to the highest bidder before you left. Much as any civilization would do to someone who commits an act of treason.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 16 mai 2013 - 05:05 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, you don't.

Tal-Vashoth are axed automatically.

And why shouldn't they be? Bandits of all other nations are executed without trial, so why should the Qunari treat their bandits any different?

If you think that Vasoth (note the difference between Tal-Vasoth and Vasoth) are executed outright, then you are wrong.

[Cainhurst Crow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, you don't.

Tal-Vashoth are axed automatically.

And why shouldn't they be? Bandits of all other nations are executed without trial, so why should the Qunari treat their bandits any different?

If you think that Vasoth (note the difference between Tal-Vasoth and Vasoth) are executed outright, then you are wrong.

The wounded coast comes to mind.

[esper]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Honesty, honor, ethics, manners, self-discipline, compassion,
empathy-what those mean to you and how you value them are BELIEFS.  But
you would have me not pass those on to my children? What is parent
supposed to do then, feed them and house them but never speak to them
about anything? Wow.

Thank you for the reductio ad absurdum. My opposition here is programming them into religious beliefs, primarily.

"Hey son, I think you should do your best to tell the truth, even if you are surrounded by liars. You shouldn't steal, even if there is no possibility of being caught. I won't tell you why though. That'd be an atrocity!"

By saying religious beliefs, you're drawing an artificial line where none exists. All of those values are instrumental in pretty much all major religions. You're telling me that'd it be an ATROCITY to share my values with my children-oh nvm only some of them. Which doesn't work. Values are not standalone ideas or concepts. They are a network of both the "whats" and the "whys" behind behaviors and outlooks, and by cutting out religion you'd be eliminating a pretty significant chunk of them. 

All of that is besides your amazing presumption on how children should be raised. Maybe the atrocity is your opinion.

And you're welcome. 

I don't see the difference between 'You shouldn't steal because...' and you shouldn't steal because god say so. And any way. Children are quite smart, they will learn the values you practice not the ones you preach. (No matter theism).

Anyway, does Qunari even raise their own children. I mean they have breeding programs. Don't they have their version of a priest/teacher learn the children the Qun while assessing which role they fit? In which case we are way beyond passsing on morals and walking straight another potential very damning area.