790 réponses à ce sujet

[Ecrulis]

How is shepard acting as if he is in love with her? I have many, many different shepards only one of which has Liara as a LI and surprise surprise the only one that acts as if she's in love with Liara is the one that has her as her LI.

[KaiserShep]

FemShep in ME2 is pretty flirty. Can't exchange two nice words to Jacob without breaking out the "How you doin'" voice.

[Mr.House]

Ymladdych wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

If you want to consider that flirting, Liara still wouldn't be the only character to flirt with Shepard regardless of whether or not that character was being pursued as an LI.

Ashley is quite open about her romantic interest in Shepard in ME1, unless perhaps Shepard is a total renedouche. I never choose the cruel dialogue options with squaddies, so I can't say whether or not that puts a stop to Ashley's romantic interest.

Tali not only flirts with Shepard in ME2, but takes "No thanks Tali, it would be too dangerous" to mean "I'm your boyfriend now." It was rather amusing when my Shepard, who was romancing Miranda in ME2, was told by Tali that he had to make a choice between them. "Uh Tali, already did. Why don't you go help Garrus with his calibrations."

Jack offers casual sex in ME2.

Kelly flirts unless told to knock it off and keep it professional.

And finally in the Citadel DLC Ashley and Tali will make similar comments as Liara if brought along for the casino mission, even if not romanced. They all have similar 'you look good' lines. If Liara is guilty of flirting so are Ashley and Tali

Yeah, but the point is...Liara never stops. All those people STOP when Shepard shuts them down. Neither does Shepard act like he's in love with those characters unless he's actually pursuing a romantic relationship.

Except Liara does stop. You're confusing friendship with romance.

Also what about Vega? He flirts with you and Shepard auto flirts no matter what. Yet peopel don't throw that out of the water, but one little comment from Liara and everyone loses their mind.

Modifié par Mr.House, 17 mai 2013 - 06:23 .

[Ecrulis]

KaiserShep wrote...

FemShep in ME2 is pretty flirty. Can't exchange two nice words to Jacob without breaking out the "How you doin'" voice.

Honestly Jacob was the only one I noticed that in with femshep, so I just dont talk to him in ME2

[KaiserShep]

Yeah I only talked to him to get some armor upgrades, and left him there to toil in my armory.

[MegaSovereign]

KaiserShep wrote...

FemShep in ME2 is pretty flirty. Can't exchange two nice words to Jacob without breaking out the "How you doin'" voice.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Morlath]

I guess it's easy for people to forget that Liara has been through it all with Shepard and walked in the guy's/girl's mind. That kinda stuff builds bonds, you know.

So she's a little friendly. Maybe she sees Shepard as her best friend? Shepard DID help show her mum wasn't a raging psycho, helped kill the Shadow Broker and rescue Feron and is pretty chummy for all three games.

[Morlath]

MegaSovereign wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

FemShep in ME2 is pretty flirty. Can't exchange two nice words to Jacob without breaking out the "How you doin'" voice.

www.youtube.com/watch

Yeah...that voice...

[Ryzaki]

Mr.House wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Ah a Liara hate thread, where the vocal minority come from their rock and spew hyperbole. How I miss thee.

Liara is not forced on you at all in the Citadel dlc, nor does she flirt with you. She's no more forced on you then Joker and Vega(unless Wrex is alive, then Wrex is forced on you)

Bolded is a lie. Giving someone a once over and saying "you look good" in a sultry voice (and having to do a "Oh! Uh..." moment is flirting. Not not be blatant "TAKE ME TO BED NOW!" but it's flirty. And yes she still says that if you didn't romance her. Got it on my stevemancer.

Wait, so if I say to my dad you look good because he's wearing a spiffy suit that's flirting with him? wtf

Uh no. First off Shep's wearing his casual wear (you know that same outfit he/she wears on the ship all the time?) it's that combined with the once over and the distracted by the sexy when Shep goes "Uh...hello?" 

And frankly I found Tali's "oh hai Shep I have a crush on you." equally annoying. Thankfully it's a one time occassion. Does help that she moves on to Garrus and doesn't  seem to hold a torch for Shepard years later. (As for Ashley I virmired that one easiest ninjamance solution to date). Jack's being jack (and again easily avoided and shutdown and it's a one time occurance). As for Tali and Ashley I don't take Tali to the casino so that's easily averted and I have Kaidan in ME3.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mai 2013 - 06:34 .

[KaiserShep]

Morlath wrote...

I guess it's easy for people to forget that Liara has been through it all with Shepard and walked in the guy's/girl's mind. That kinda stuff builds bonds, you know.

So she's a little friendly. Maybe she sees Shepard as her best friend? Shepard DID help show her mum wasn't a raging psycho, helped kill the Shadow Broker and rescue Feron and is pretty chummy for all three games.

I didn't realize the subtle differences in some exchanges until I did a complete playthrough from 1. The first time I played ME3, I didn't romance Liara, and when I romanced her since ME1, some of the conversation options and the way Shepard behaved were noticeably different. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 17 mai 2013 - 06:29 .

[Ymladdych]

Ecrulis wrote...
It is grasping at straws, as I said most of the complainst against Liara can are easily chalked up to sutting corners and laziness than some grand conspiracy.

I'm sorry, but the evidence doesn't support your case. Anyone with honest eyes can even see how Ashley's difficult personality in ME1 (suspicious, pushy, jealous, hypercritical) was deliberately framed to make Liara all the more attractive to the average male gamer.

Mind you, I have no problem with fantasies depicted in a video game...until someone else's fantasy is constantly shoved down my throat as "The Awesomesauce."

[KaiserShep]

I found her difficulty oddly appealing. Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment.

[The Night Mammoth]

[quote]Ymladdych wrote...

I'll agree that the "Liara Issue" isn't the biggest problem in the franchise, and I give kudos to the team for extending an olive branch with "Citadel," but obviously it *is* a problem for people - something they don't want to see repeated with future games. Whether you think it's a "vast exaggeration" or not is irrelevant...that's up to Bioware to figure out, and they deserve to know.[/quote]

Ah, so we're down to dismissing people's opinions as irrelevant. What makes your opinion more relevant than mine?

[quote]Now you say the Liara complaints are hyperbole? How so?

Does Liara not show obsessive tendencies in ME1 because of his exposure to the beacon? Yes. [/quote]

Not really. It's wonderfully easy to avoid all the characters in the first Mass Effect game. 

[quote]Does her previously girlish breathy-voice drop into a seductive purr with, "You intrrrrrrrigue me, Shepard."? Yes.[/quote]
Doesn't change from one sentence to the next. 

[quote]Does Liara not flirt with Shepard in the Citadel DLC if he's not romancing a squad member? Yes.[/quote]
We've already established she has a crush on Shepard. Surely, the fact that she only does this if you aren't romancing somene is a good thing. This is also a complaint from the Citadel DLC. 

Where Liara impersonates a country farm girl to distract a security guard at one point.

[quote]Does Liara not hunt down his body, sacrificing a friend on the way because she "couldn't let [Shepard] go?" Yes.[/quote]
And? Everyone knows she cares for Shepard. 

[quote]Does Liara not keep a piece of his armor under glass in her apartment? Yes.[/quote]
So? She gave Shepard's body to Cerberus, why isn't she allowed to keep a memento of someone she cares about? Is is also creepy and stalkerish to refuse an offer to join Shepard on the Normandy?

[quote]Does Liara not spy on Shepard with cameras in the Normandy? Yes.[/quote]

Are you implying that the Illusive Man also has a romantic interest in Shepard? 

[quote]As a woman in RL, these things scream, "Restraining order!" to me. (Notice I didn't even have to touch the ME3 stuff.)[/quote]
Why does your gender matter in this situation? 

[quote]And then there's Shepard's contribution to the problem, cut and pasted from an earlier post of mine:

In "Lair of the Shadow Broker," Shepard will dive to save Liara from
debris, with a quick shot of them spooning on the floor without a care
in the world,  while the other squadmate gets to eat 300 pounds of desk.
(Mind you, Shepard's equally close to both henchmen.) What if the
player has an ME2 LI and brings him/her along, as I did?[/quote]

Lair of the Shadow Broker isn't about Shepard and her random unimportant love interest, it's about Liara becoming the Shadow Broker.

[quote]In
vanilla ME3, Shepard shows more emotional depth and intimacy with
Liara's "friend" scenes than with any of the ME2 romance scenes, barring
Miranda's death sequence. Lastly, to top it all off, the original disc
ending shows Shepard's last thought to be of...Liara. (Some might say
that was a bug, but then I'd ask why the cinematic files weren't even on
the disc - they weren't added until the EC.)[/quote]

One of the instances where Liara's content should have been given to another character. It was, in the EC, this is now an irrelevant point.

[quote]So, whatever. If you don't see it, you'll never see it, and that's okay. I only care that the developer's see it, which is why I step in when I see the Blue Brigade trying to silence anyone who voices their opinion on it. (Note: I never start these threads myself, though.)[/quote]
What a terror it must be to have your opinion challenged.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 17 mai 2013 - 06:53 .

[KaiserShep]

If I remember correctly, the only time Liara is able to actively express any interest in Shepard or what Shepard was exposed to, without the player's involvement, is during the crew meeting in the comm room in ME1, which only happen twice. Beyond that, you have to actually go to the med bay to get any other information. If you never go there, she can't express her interest in you, because she won't do it anywhere else. 

All things considered, Liara can be avoided entirely beyond Therum and the comm room meetings, and since ME1 has no compulsory squadmates, she can be left on the ship for every mission. To top it off, she's nigh absent for the majority of Mass Effect 2. 

I disagree entirely about the purpose of Ashley's personality. Just because it doesn't fit one person doesn't mean she doesn't fit with anyone. Some people love Kaiden, other people find him boring. Some people are indifferent to Garrus, and others adore him. I don't think that the way each character behaves is specifically designed to drive certain players toward another at all. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 17 mai 2013 - 06:47 .

[Ecrulis]

Ymladdych wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...
It is grasping at straws, as I said most of the complainst against Liara can are easily chalked up to sutting corners and laziness than some grand conspiracy.

I'm sorry, but the evidence doesn't support your case. Anyone with honest eyes can even see how Ashley's difficult personality in ME1 (suspicious, pushy, jealous, hypercritical) was deliberately framed to make Liara all the more attractive to the average male gamer.

Mind you, I have no problem with fantasies depicted in a video game...until someone else's fantasy is constantly shoved down my throat as "The Awesomesauce."

Your trying to sit there, with a straight face, and tell me that Bioware sat around in a board room saying "Alright boys how can we make ashley unlikeable? we need a s little distraction from Liara as possible." 



Oh man, that's great

[Nole]

I always saw Liara as a good friend of Shepard .

[TARITARI]

Ymladdych wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...
It is grasping at straws, as I said most of the complainst against Liara can are easily chalked up to sutting corners and laziness than some grand conspiracy.

I'm sorry, but the evidence doesn't support your case. Anyone with honest eyes can even see how Ashley's difficult personality in ME1 (suspicious, pushy, jealous, hypercritical) was deliberately framed to make Liara all the more attractive to the average male gamer.

Mind you, I have no problem with fantasies depicted in a video game...until someone else's fantasy is constantly shoved down my throat as "The Awesomesauce."

I was choking on this sauce as well.      Everybody is entitled to their own fantasy.   Liara may be the character the designers WANTED you to romance but being REQUIRED to at least have your avatar be attracted to her is not appreciated.

[s-jay2676]

TARITARI wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I don't care if someone doesn't like Liara, but I don't understand why they don't like her because she's forced. 

Or, I do understand, I just think that's a stupid reason. Apparently characters are only supposed to do anything, say anything, or display any kind of emotion if Shepard tells them to. Bo-o-o-o-o-o-ring.

Liara's overbearing presence isn't the root of my dislike for her character, but it certainly inflames that dislike into a hatred.

By the way, it's not just that she's forced. A lot of Bioware characters are forced, but she receives more hate than the others because her "friendly" content assumes a closeness that it shouldn't...to the point where it flat out overrides player choice in NON-OPTIONAL instances. (I gave some examples a few pages back.)

Nor is it just about Liara "having a crush" - although her stalking and flirting *are* pretty off-putting - it's that Shepard's hard-coded behavior towards her is overtly romantic...regardless of gender or LI choice.

Let me put it this way: how many players would be "okay" with her interactions throughout the trilogy if "she" was a "he." What if she was swapped with James Vega? Or Alistair? Maybe Jack from "Titanic?" How about Edward Cullen? (Insert whatever mainstream female-fantasy targeted character that simultaneously bores and annoys the living crap out of you.)

How would the bulk of players feel about his constant presence and flirting? His hard-coded intimacy with their avatar? How would they feel about their avatar acting "in love" with this character? If femShep players' (RL males and RL females) reactions to the "friendly" Jacob interactions are any indication...I don't think they'd be too okay with it.

Just to expose the blindspot a little bit more (***OMEGA spoiler***)...

Would Aria's unsolicited and unprotested Renegade kiss have occurred if her character was male? How would players feel about that? Hetero males...lesbians...hetero females that don't want it?

Once again, I suspect most players wouldn't be too "okay" with it, but for some reason, assumptions change when the "offender" is female; suddenly it's considered a non-issue. (Except for the people for whom it *is* an issue.)

Agree with every bit of this.     Liara both being a constant presence AND not having a choice of how the character that I am identifying with as "me"..  (MY Shepard) reacts to her in any sexual way DOES amount to "forced"
I have real trouble believing in the credibility of anybody that says that they would be "okay" with the situation if it was not in line with their own sexual orientation.      
Straight male gamers threw a hissyfit JUST because a bisexual male character propositioned them in Dragon Age!   NO loss of Avatar reaction was even involved!    To think that the majority of these people would be fine with seeing their male Shepard's eyes linger longingly on the crotch area of a well muscled man who was suggesting a relationship is ludicrous.
I got to watch MY Avatar.. MY  female shepard stare at an Asari's breasts as she was coming on to her!    I have NO problem with that being in the game.   I have LOTS of problem with not being able to avoid it.

What confuses me is that anybody MINDS that some people have a problem with it and that I dare to complain about it here.    Why?   Could it be really so petty as they are afraid that some game designer will read this and take their girl on girl action out of the game?     As IF! <_< 

If you have the right to complain about it, then other people have also the right to complain about your complaining.

I think hating Liara or any othe character, for that matter, is really childish. Are you guys even able to enjoy the game?

[Ryzaki]

Thankfully Liara is not the majority of game content so yeah it's really easy to enjoy the game while disliking her. (And in ME1 and ME2 I could minimize her screentime as much as I could by picking her up last/just tallking to her long enough to get Samara and Thane).

Starbrat is more of a hindrance of my game enjoyment than liara.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mai 2013 - 07:03 .

[TARITARI]

Ecrulis wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...
It is grasping at straws, as I said most of the complainst against Liara can are easily chalked up to sutting corners and laziness than some grand conspiracy.

I'm sorry, but the evidence doesn't support your case. Anyone with honest eyes can even see how Ashley's difficult personality in ME1 (suspicious, pushy, jealous, hypercritical) was deliberately framed to make Liara all the more attractive to the average male gamer.

Mind you, I have no problem with fantasies depicted in a video game...until someone else's fantasy is constantly shoved down my throat as "The Awesomesauce."

Your trying to sit there, with a straight face, and tell me that Bioware sat around in a board room saying "Alright boys how can we make ashley unlikeable? we need a s little distraction from Liara as possible." 



Oh man, that's great

Oh please.    I can sit here with a straight face after playing all three games and tell you ANYthing could be going on in whatever passes for a Bioware board room!!!!   

[Han Shot First]

Ymladdych wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

If you want to consider that flirting, Liara still wouldn't be the only character to flirt with Shepard regardless of whether or not that character was being pursued as an LI.

Ashley is quite open about her romantic interest in Shepard in ME1, unless perhaps Shepard is a total renedouche. I never choose the cruel dialogue options with squaddies, so I can't say whether or not that puts a stop to Ashley's romantic interest.

Tali not only flirts with Shepard in ME2, but takes "No thanks Tali, it would be too dangerous" to mean "I'm your boyfriend now." It was rather amusing when my Shepard, who was romancing Miranda in ME2, was told by Tali that he had to make a choice between them. "Uh Tali, already did. Why don't you go help Garrus with his calibrations."

Jack offers casual sex in ME2.

Kelly flirts unless told to knock it off and keep it professional.

And finally in the Citadel DLC Ashley and Tali will make similar comments as Liara if brought along for the casino mission, even if not romanced. They all have similar 'you look good' lines. If Liara is guilty of flirting so are Ashley and Tali

Yeah, but the point is...Liara never stops. All those people STOP when Shepard shuts them down. Neither does Shepard act like he's in love with those characters unless he's actually pursuing a romantic relationship.

Scroll up.

Even when Tali is told that Shepard isn't interested in anything romantic, Tali takes it as a resounding 'yes' if Shepard goes for the gentle rejection. She takes "No Tali, it would be too dangerous" to mean "We're dating now."

[Ecrulis]

TARITARI wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...
It is grasping at straws, as I said most of the complainst against Liara can are easily chalked up to sutting corners and laziness than some grand conspiracy.

I'm sorry, but the evidence doesn't support your case. Anyone with honest eyes can even see how Ashley's difficult personality in ME1 (suspicious, pushy, jealous, hypercritical) was deliberately framed to make Liara all the more attractive to the average male gamer.

Mind you, I have no problem with fantasies depicted in a video game...until someone else's fantasy is constantly shoved down my throat as "The Awesomesauce."

Your trying to sit there, with a straight face, and tell me that Bioware sat around in a board room saying "Alright boys how can we make ashley unlikeable? we need a s little distraction from Liara as possible." 



Oh man, that's great

Oh please.    I can sit here with a straight face after playing all three games and tell you ANYthing could be going on in whatever passes for a Bioware board room!!!!   

Please, regail me with your wonderful conspiracy theories completely logical arguments

[Ryzaki]

Han Shot First wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

If you want to consider that flirting, Liara still wouldn't be the only character to flirt with Shepard regardless of whether or not that character was being pursued as an LI.

Ashley is quite open about her romantic interest in Shepard in ME1, unless perhaps Shepard is a total renedouche. I never choose the cruel dialogue options with squaddies, so I can't say whether or not that puts a stop to Ashley's romantic interest.

Tali not only flirts with Shepard in ME2, but takes "No thanks Tali, it would be too dangerous" to mean "I'm your boyfriend now." It was rather amusing when my Shepard, who was romancing Miranda in ME2, was told by Tali that he had to make a choice between them. "Uh Tali, already did. Why don't you go help Garrus with his calibrations."

Jack offers casual sex in ME2.

Kelly flirts unless told to knock it off and keep it professional.

And finally in the Citadel DLC Ashley and Tali will make similar comments as Liara if brought along for the casino mission, even if not romanced. They all have similar 'you look good' lines. If Liara is guilty of flirting so are Ashley and Tali

Yeah, but the point is...Liara never stops. All those people STOP when Shepard shuts them down. Neither does Shepard act like he's in love with those characters unless he's actually pursuing a romantic relationship.

Scroll up.

Even when Tali is told that Shepard isn't interested in anything romantic, Tali takes it as a resounding 'yes' if Shepard goes for the gentle rejection. She takes "No Tali, it would be too dangerous" to mean "We're dating now."

That's not what Shep says.

What he actually does is express concern about her health. Unless I missed something. One choice is flat out interest, another is flat out disinterest and the mid is more like would that be healthy.

He doesn't go "I'm not interested Tali I'm sorry." That's a choice but that's not the one that leads her to continue the conversation. (That choice leads to her awkwardly going "Oh.") going "it's too dangerous" is not a no I'm not interested.  It's more "I don't think this is safe." *(which is why she tries to point out that it WOULDN'T be that dangerous.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mai 2013 - 07:33 .

[TARITARI]

What confuses me is that anybody MINDS that some people have a problem with it and that I dare to complain about it here.    Why?   Could it be really so petty as they are afraid that some game designer will read this and take their girl on girl action out of the game?     As IF! <_< 

[/quote]

If you have the right to complain about it, then other people have also the right to complain about your complaining.

I think hating Liara or any othe character, for that matter, is really childish. Are you guys even able to enjoy the game?

[/quote]

Never said you didn't have the right to complain about it.   I just asked why?     Which you didn't offer an answer to except to call me childish for hating a character.
If you don't have strong emotional reactions to characters in fiction then the medium has failed.   There is nothing childish about that.
I am not a guy.   I am a girl.   My enjoyment of a game is DEPENDANT on my emotional reaction to characters.   If you don't play that way or if you find enjoyment in other aspects of a game that is fine.   But I do.    Informing the game designers of  whether or not they have succeeded in some aspect of pleasing me as a customer.  (Assuming they are listening or care.)   Is my right as it is yours.

Modifié par TARITARI, 17 mai 2013 - 07:36 .