790 réponses à ce sujet

[Ymladdych]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
Ah, so we're down to dismissing people's opinions as irrelevant. What makes your opinion more relevant than mine?

I didn't say my opinion was more valid, I said that Bioware will decide what's relevant and what's not.

Not really. It's wonderfully easy to avoid all the characters in the first Mass Effect game.

Except that if you're a roleplayer, like I am, you're not going to completely refuse to speak with her.

Doesn't change from one sentence to the next.

Petty point on your part. (But yes it does.)

We've already established she has a crush on Shepard. Surely, the fact that she only does this if you aren't romancing somene is a good thing. This is also a complaint from the Citadel DLC. 

Where Liara impersonates a country farm girl to distract a security guard at one point.

Actually, she flirts even when Shep's romancing a non-squad ME2 character. Now, a piece of advice from me to you: having a "crush" is no excuse for constantly making unwanted, flirty advances after someone's explicitly shut you down. It's selfish, crappy behavior, and *gasp* people will call you stalker and dislike you for it. (Probably send you to HR for it, if we're talking about a work environment.)

And? Everyone knows she cares for Shepard.

So? She gave Shepard's body to Cerberus, why isn't she allowed to keep a memento of someone she cares about? Is is also creepy and stalkerish to refuse an offer to join Shepard on the Normandy?

Unless she's in a romance with Shepard, both are creepy examples of obsessive behavior. Even your fellow Liara fans admit the armor is creepy.

Are you implying that the Illusive Man also has a romantic interest in Shepard?

No, but the Illusive Man is also an obsessive control freak.

Why does your gender matter in this situation?

You're right, it doesn't matter. Liara's behavior should scream "Restraining order!" to any gender.
(I suppose I added it because I know that women are 3x more likely to be victims than men. They're also more likely to be murdered by their stalker.)

Lair of the Shadow Broker isn't about Shepard and her random unimportant love interest, it's about Liara becoming the Shadow Broker.

Character focus is one thing...immersion-breaking scenarios are another things altogether.

One of the instances where Liara's content should have been given to another character. They were, in the EC, this is now an irrelevant point.

Except it's not irrelevant, because it illustrates Bioware's single-mindedness when it comes to "Liara As Default." To their credit, they corrected it, but only after people complained.

What a terror it must be to have your opinion challenged.

Not really.

[Ecrulis]

May be that time again tickle

[SpamBot2000]

MegaSovereign wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

FemShep in ME2 is pretty flirty. Can't exchange two nice words to Jacob without breaking out the "How you doin'" voice.

www.youtube.com/watch

Needs 15 minute "Club Mix".

[TARITARI]

Ecrulis wrote...

TARITARI wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...
It is grasping at straws, as I said most of the complainst against Liara can are easily chalked up to sutting corners and laziness than some grand conspiracy.

I'm sorry, but the evidence doesn't support your case. Anyone with honest eyes can even see how Ashley's difficult personality in ME1 (suspicious, pushy, jealous, hypercritical) was deliberately framed to make Liara all the more attractive to the average male gamer.

Mind you, I have no problem with fantasies depicted in a video game...until someone else's fantasy is constantly shoved down my throat as "The Awesomesauce."

Your trying to sit there, with a straight face, and tell me that Bioware sat around in a board room saying "Alright boys how can we make ashley unlikeable? we need a s little distraction from Liara as possible." 



Oh man, that's great

Oh please.    I can sit here with a straight face after playing all three games and tell you ANYthing could be going on in whatever passes for a Bioware board room!!!!   

Please, regail me with your wonderful conspiracy theories completely logical arguments

I was unaware of argueing anything.  I was only making a statement of fact about what I could tell you with a straight face.    I will regale you another time perhaps with my wild imaginings of what might be going on in the Super Secret and Official Bioware War Room and Control Center if you like.    Until then thanks for your completely missing the point very thoughtful and intelligent response.

[Ecrulis]

Anytime! meanwhile I am going to continue to giggle incessantly at the ludicrous idea that Bioware sabotages characters so Liara won't have competition.

[The Night Mammoth]

Ymladdych wrote...

I didn't say my opinion was more valid, I said that Bioware will decide what's relevant and what's not.

You said what I thought was irrelevant. 

Except that if you're a roleplayer, like I am, you're not going to completely refuse to speak with her.

So you're roleplaying someone who actively seeks out a person you don't like for their supposed 'obsessive' tendancies. 

I say supposed, because she doesn't have obsessive tendancies toward Shepard at all in the first game. Unless you're suggesting the whole Normandy is similarly obsessed with the commander. 

Actually, she flirts even when Shep's romancing a non-squad ME2 character. Now, a piece of advice from me to you: having a "crush" is no excuse for constantly making unwanted, flirty advances after someone's explicitly shut you down. It's selfish, crappy behavior, and *gasp* people will call you stalker and dislike you for it. (Probably send you to HR for it, if we're talking about a work environment.)

Putting aside the fact that this is the CItadel DLC and its content has zero bearing on the rest of Mass effect considering there's not a single aspect that isn't tongue in cheek, why is specifically Liara flirting with Shepard a travesty when half the other characters do similar things at points, even outside of the Citadel DLC? 

Unless she's in a romance with Shepard, both are creepy examples of obsessive behavior. Even your fellow Liara fans admit the armor is creepy.

Yeah I admit the armor is a little unsettling. I think it has an aspect of guilt. 

No, but the Illusive Man is also an obsessive control freak.

Liara's a control freak, she becomes the Shadow Broker, and like the Illusive Man has a vested interest in Shepard's mission. 

Character focus is one thing...immersion-breaking scenarios are another things altogether.

You're placing far too much importance on a meaningless act that lasted about half a second and amounted to nothing. Get over it, basically. 

Except it's not irrelevant, because it illustrates Bioware's single-mindedness when it comes to "Liara As Default." To their credit, they corrected it, but only after people complained.

Yeah, they were so single minded they had exactly the same amount of romance content for her in the first game compared to Ashley and Kaiden, took her out altogether in the second and only went back to her later in DLC, whilst adding a bunch of new options like the extremely popular Garrus, Tali, and Miranda, then continued into the third game by adding more romance options and continuing the old ones whilst giving her exactly the same amount of romance content as all these other options, and most importantly, allowing players exactly once to enter into a relationship, the same as every other of the afore mentioned romancable characters. If they were so single minded, wouldn't they be slipping in romance lock triggers like the Citadel date in far more of her conversations? 

Not really.

You seem awfully frightened of this infamous 'Blue Brigade'.

[s-jay2676]

[quote]TARITARI wrote...




What confuses me is that anybody MINDS that some people have a problem with it and that I dare to complain about it here.    Why?   Could it be really so petty as they are afraid that some game designer will read this and take their girl on girl action out of the game?     As IF! <_< 

[/quote]

If you have the right to complain about it, then other people have also the right to complain about your complaining.

I think hating Liara or any othe character, for that matter, is really childish. Are you guys even able to enjoy the game?

[/quote]

Never said you didn't have the right to complain about it.   I just asked why?     Which you didn't offer an answer to except to call me childish for hating a character.
If you don't have strong emotional reactions to characters in fiction then the medium has failed.   There is nothing childish about that.
I am not a guy.   I am a girl.   My enjoyment of a game is DEPENDANT on my emotional reaction to characters.   If you don't play that way or if you find enjoyment in other aspects of a game that is fine.   But I do.    Informing the game designers of  whether or not they have succeeded in some aspect of pleasing me as a customer.  (Assuming they are listening or care.)   Is my right as it is yours.

[/quote]

I didn't answer your question, because honestly, I don't mind if you hate the character. I'm sure you're have your reasons for it, just as other people have their reasons for loving the character. But as I read your question, I got the feeling that you're angry at the people who are complaining. Obviously I was wrong and for that I'm sorry.

And by saying that I find it childish, I didn't mean you specifically. I meant the whole topic, because there's no right or wrong.

And now my questions. How can you enjoy a game when you're so dependent on your emotional reaction to characters? I mean, I also like some characters more than others. But I wouldn't be able to play the game more than once, if I truly hated a character. And what does the fact that you're a girl have to do with anything?

[Ymladdych]

Ecrulis wrote...

Anytime! meanwhile I am going to continue to giggle incessantly at the ludicrous idea that Bioware sabotages characters so Liara won't have competition.

It's not about sabotage so much as it's about framing a situation to ensure a higher probability of evoking a certain reaction from your audience. Yes, artists do that, including Bioware. Just look at Synthesis in the EC, is that not framed to seem like the best possible outcome?

Hudson has said multiple they were concerned that players might not bond with the alien characters as much as the humans. If Bioware sees the Liara relationship as thematically important to Shepard's story, why wouldn't they counterbalance Ashley's presumed "human" advantage with framing?

[Hazegurl]

Argolas wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...

I think that's Photoshopped.

How can you tell?

It rather looks like MS Paint.

I think so too. I would think that a photoshopped job would look slightly better than that.

[Hazegurl]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I think people have been spoiled by the amount of control they had over Shepard. Now they want to control every character and everything they do to tailor their experience exactly how they want it.

Exactly. And even Shepard was always less of a blank slate than the Warden or the Bhaalspawn.

I don't care if someone doesn't like Liara, but I don't understand why they don't like her because she's forced. 

Or, I do understand, I just think that's a stupid reason. Apparently characters are only supposed to do anything, say anything, or display any kind of emotion if Shepard tells them to. Bo-o-o-o-o-o-ring.

Why are players obligated to like her if they feel she is being forced on them? Or do you enjoy hanging out with people you think are stalkers?

Oh yeah and to Liaramancers crying over the forced issue. here's  good example on why some players consider her forced (too much on the player). I can choose to hug Kelly when I greet her in ME3, I can't choose whether or not to hug Liara in ME2. If anything people are complaining about the lack of choice in how to role play Shep with Liara. Other characters are forced too, like garrus and Wrex, but I can kill them.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 17 mai 2013 - 09:05 .

[Barquiel]

Ecrulis wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...
It is grasping at straws, as I said most of the complainst against Liara can are easily chalked up to sutting corners and laziness than some grand conspiracy.

I'm sorry, but the evidence doesn't support your case. Anyone with honest eyes can even see how Ashley's difficult personality in ME1 (suspicious, pushy, jealous, hypercritical) was deliberately framed to make Liara all the more attractive to the average male gamer.

Mind you, I have no problem with fantasies depicted in a video game...until someone else's fantasy is constantly shoved down my throat as "The Awesomesauce."

Your trying to sit there, with a straight face, and tell me that Bioware sat around in a board room saying "Alright boys how can we make ashley unlikeable? we need a s little distraction from Liara as possible." 



Oh man, that's great

Especially because Ashley's ME1 romance is more fleshed out than Liara's (Ashley has more dialogue). It is in LotSB and ME 3 that Liara's romance really expands and overshadows Ashley's.

Modifié par Barquiel, 17 mai 2013 - 09:10 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Ecrulis wrote...

Anytime! meanwhile I am going to continue to giggle incessantly at the ludicrous idea that Bioware sabotages characters so Liara won't have competition.

To be fair that is exactly the kind of petty evil I'd want from a game writter turned "Super"villain.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 17 mai 2013 - 09:10 .

[TARITARI]

[quote]s-jay2676 wrote...

[quote]TARITARI wrote...




What confuses me is that anybody MINDS that some people have a problem with it and that I dare to complain about it here.    Why?   Could it be really so petty as they are afraid that some game designer will read this and take their girl on girl action out of the game?     As IF! <_< 

[/quote]

If you have the right to complain about it, then other people have also the right to complain about your complaining.

I think hating Liara or any othe character, for that matter, is really childish. Are you guys even able to enjoy the game?

[/quote]

Never said you didn't have the right to complain about it.   I just asked why?     Which you didn't offer an answer to except to call me childish for hating a character.
If you don't have strong emotional reactions to characters in fiction then the medium has failed.   There is nothing childish about that.
I am not a guy.   I am a girl.   My enjoyment of a game is DEPENDANT on my emotional reaction to characters.   If you don't play that way or if you find enjoyment in other aspects of a game that is fine.   But I do.    Informing the game designers of  whether or not they have succeeded in some aspect of pleasing me as a customer.  (Assuming they are listening or care.)   Is my right as it is yours.

[/quote]

I didn't answer your question, because honestly, I don't mind if you hate the character. I'm sure you're have your reasons for it, just as other people have their reasons for loving the character. But as I read your question, I got the feeling that you're angry at the people who are complaining. Obviously I was wrong and for that I'm sorry.

And by saying that I find it childish, I didn't mean you specifically. I meant the whole topic, because there's no right or wrong.

And now my questions. How can you enjoy a game when you're so dependent on your emotional reaction to characters? I mean, I also like some characters more than others. But I wouldn't be able to play the game more than once, if I truly hated a character. And what does the fact that you're a girl have to do with anything?

[/quote]

I said I was a girl just because you said "guys" not because it had anything to do with anything (although it might since males seem to tend to like different things in games than girls do.)

How can I enjoy a game if I am dependant on my emotional reaction to characters?  If you are really honestly curious about that then I am not sure how to answer that since I enjoy things differently than you do.   I assure you that it is so and I also am pretty sure that the makers of the game or any fiction WANT strong reactions to their characters

My version of HATE for fictional characters is not the same as what I might employ for someone in real life.    If I actually HATED someone in real life I might avoid them.   But a character in a video game does not elicit such a strong response that I might not play it again if there were other characters I enjoyed or other aspects of the game that were pleasant and interesting.    Does that help?

The subject is not silly.   It is a valid point and likely discussions like it have affected how the gamemakers might think in the future about what they might want to avoid.   However, the dirision and ridicule some like to employ against posts they do not agree with is more than a little silly given the frivolous nature of the subject matter.     In other words, it really isn't worth being rude over.. and certainly doing that does not do anything for anyone's cause.

[TARITARI]

Hazegurl wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I think people have been spoiled by the amount of control they had over Shepard. Now they want to control every character and everything they do to tailor their experience exactly how they want it.

Exactly. And even Shepard was always less of a blank slate than the Warden or the Bhaalspawn.

I don't care if someone doesn't like Liara, but I don't understand why they don't like her because she's forced. 

Or, I do understand, I just think that's a stupid reason. Apparently characters are only supposed to do anything, say anything, or display any kind of emotion if Shepard tells them to. Bo-o-o-o-o-o-ring.

Why are players obligated to like her if they feel she is being forced on them? Or do you enjoy hanging out with people you think are stalkers?

Oh yeah and to Liaramancers crying over the forced issue. here's  good example on why some players consider her forced (too much on the player). I can choose to hug Kelly when I greet her in ME3, I can't choose whether or not to hug Liara in ME2. If anything people are complaining about the lack of choice in how to role play Shep with Liara. Other characters are forced too, like garrus and Wrex, but I can kill them.

Exactly.  Your point is a good one even if I never would consider killing either Garrus or Wrex.    If I could have killed Liara or any other crewmember that rubbed me the wrong way then I'd shut up and be off happily replaying the game and buying whatever else they came up with.   (Hopefully with a better ending.)   The fact that Liara is stuck to your shoe like a wad of gum for the whole thing no matter how you feel about it is annoying.

[The Night Mammoth]

Hazegurl wrote...

Why are players obligated to like her if they feel she is being forced on them? Or do you enjoy hanging out with people you think are stalkers?

I didn't say you had to like her, just that thinking she's forced on you is a stupid reason not to. 

Oh yeah and to Liaramancers crying over the forced issue. here's  good example on why some players consider her forced (too much on the player). I can choose to hug Kelly when I greet her in ME3, I can't choose whether or not to hug Liara in ME2. If anything people are complaining about the lack of choice in how to role play Shep with Liara. Other characters are forced too, like garrus and Wrex, but I can kill them.

Woopee? Get over it, seriously. Shepard comes back from the dead and Liara is partly responsible for that. She was a member of your crew in the last game and one of the few familar faces Shepard has seen so far. I can't choose not to shake Anderson's hand at the beginning of ME3 but I don't complain about how I'm forced to like him. You only have to speak to her once in the whole of ME2 and have maybe two conversations in the first game, the amount of Liara exposure is vastly over-exaggerated. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 17 mai 2013 - 09:35 .

[Hazegurl]

TARITARI wrote...
Exactly.  Your point is a good one even if I never would consider killing either Garrus or Wrex.    If I could have killed Liara or any other crewmember that rubbed me the wrong way then I'd shut up and be off happily replaying the game and buying whatever else they came up with.   (Hopefully with a better ending.)   The fact that Liara is stuck to your shoe like a wad of gum for the whole thing no matter how you feel about it is annoying.

Right. I remember getting ME2 and ME1 for the first time and at the same time and was planning a role playing  playthrough, I wanted no metagaming involved at all. I haven't heard much about the ME series but I knew I could make Shep gay in ME3 so I wanted to play Shep as a gay man all the way through.

When I played ME1. I picked up Liara and had no issues with her at all. She was just one of the alien crewmembers I talked too. Her dialouge led to her expressing feelings for my Shep but I don't care for the monogender thing and she looked like a woman. My Shep was crushing hard on Kaidan so my Shep pretty much stalked him throughout the game. Anyway, I turned her down. It's all good...or so I thought.

Then the ship gets docked and My Shep is upset. i thought, it would be nice if Kaidan or perhaps Garrus or Wrex or somebody come and talk to me. Look who shows up, Liara. Okay fine, not bad, that's actually very sweet. She gives my Shep a pep talk then suddenly My GAY Shep almost kisses her. totally threw me off but I'm thinking "Okay that was odd, but get back into the role." then she comes to my GAY Shep's room talking about how he has feelings for her too and talking about her virginity. :blink:  I sent her away.  At this point I'm thinking "What the h*ll is wrong with this girl?"

ME1 was done and I popped in ME2. I get to my cabin and see Liara's pic on my desk. I seriously, looked around the cabin to see if i could see other crewmember pics...nope just hers. Now I'm thinking something just went wrong. So i had no choice but to go online and find out what happened. Sure enough, i found out about the bug and I am in a romance with her. Now i have a problem. Do I replay ME1 (cause I didn't know when i was locked in) or just break up with her when I see her, but that's not the freaking game I wanted to play! So I replyed ME1 metagamed to avoid Liara until the end, got a better meeting with liara that sort of made up for it (though not completely)and moved to ME2. My Shep sees Liara and hugs her while sighing longingly.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 17 mai 2013 - 09:55 .

[s-jay2676]

[quote]TARITARI wrote...

[quote]s-jay2676 wrote...

[quote]TARITARI wrote...




What confuses me is that anybody MINDS that some people have a problem with it and that I dare to complain about it here.    Why?   Could it be really so petty as they are afraid that some game designer will read this and take their girl on girl action out of the game?     As IF! <_< 

[/quote]

If you have the right to complain about it, then other people have also the right to complain about your complaining.

I think hating Liara or any othe character, for that matter, is really childish. Are you guys even able to enjoy the game?

[/quote]

Never said you didn't have the right to complain about it.   I just asked why?     Which you didn't offer an answer to except to call me childish for hating a character.
If you don't have strong emotional reactions to characters in fiction then the medium has failed.   There is nothing childish about that.
I am not a guy.   I am a girl.   My enjoyment of a game is DEPENDANT on my emotional reaction to characters.   If you don't play that way or if you find enjoyment in other aspects of a game that is fine.   But I do.    Informing the game designers of  whether or not they have succeeded in some aspect of pleasing me as a customer.  (Assuming they are listening or care.)   Is my right as it is yours.

[/quote]

I didn't answer your question, because honestly, I don't mind if you hate the character. I'm sure you're have your reasons for it, just as other people have their reasons for loving the character. But as I read your question, I got the feeling that you're angry at the people who are complaining. Obviously I was wrong and for that I'm sorry.

And by saying that I find it childish, I didn't mean you specifically. I meant the whole topic, because there's no right or wrong.

And now my questions. How can you enjoy a game when you're so dependent on your emotional reaction to characters? I mean, I also like some characters more than others. But I wouldn't be able to play the game more than once, if I truly hated a character. And what does the fact that you're a girl have to do with anything?

[/quote]

I said I was a girl just because you said "guys" not because it had anything to do with anything (although it might since males seem to tend to like different things in games than girls do.)

How can I enjoy a game if I am dependant on my emotional reaction to characters?  If you are really honestly curious about that then I am not sure how to answer that since I enjoy things differently than you do.   I assure you that it is so and I also am pretty sure that the makers of the game or any fiction WANT strong reactions to their characters

My version of HATE for fictional characters is not the same as what I might employ for someone in real life.    If I actually HATED someone in real life I might avoid them.   But a character in a video game does not elicit such a strong response that I might not play it again if there were other characters I enjoyed or other aspects of the game that were pleasant and interesting.    Does that help?

The subject is not silly.   It is a valid point and likely discussions like it have affected how the gamemakers might think in the future about what they might want to avoid.   However, the dirision and ridicule some like to employ against posts they do not agree with is more than a little silly given the frivolous nature of the subject matter.     In other words, it really isn't worth being rude over.. and certainly doing that does not do anything for anyone's cause.

[/quote]

Thank you for your kind response.  And yes, that does help.

[David7204]

For the story to function, it's necessary for some characters to be unkillable, and that's the end of it. The more freedom you have to kill characters, the less influence on the story they can have.

Modifié par David7204, 17 mai 2013 - 10:06 .

[Hazegurl]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I didn't say you had to like her, just that thinking she's forced on you is a stupid reason not to.

And I disagree with you. If, in your own opinion, you believed a certain person in your life was coming on to you too strongly and it was putting you off to them, and you decided not to like them as a result of that behavior. I wouldn't call it a stupid reason.

Woopee? Get over it, seriously. Shepard comes back from the dead and Liara is partly responsible for that. She was a member of your crew in the last game and one of the few familar faces Shepard has seen so far. I can't choose not to shake Anderson's hand at the beginning of ME3 but I don't complain about how I'm forced to like him. You only have to speak to her once in the whole of ME2 and have maybe two conversations in the first game, the amount of Liara exposure is vastly over-exaggerated. 

Oh how mature.:innocent: I don't have to get over anything. I can talk as much trash as I want about these characters and I can preceive them any way I see fit in the games I paid my money to play. If you hate it so much to the point of raging at everyone who doesn't like a character you like or heaven forbid actually want to tell a joke about it, then that is your problem.

And no, Liara didn't save MY Shepard. There is zero mention of her being involved in my recovery. So I give thanks to Miranda and TIM for that one and I don't have to have anderson onboard my ship either so I don't mind having to shake his hand. Face it, the more choices that are taken away from us the more we begin to see the many aspects of how the devs took over our Sheps. Get mad at them or something cause perhaps if Liara was handled better and wasn't just one more thing the devs decided to role play for us then maybe players would be making fun of it.

[Wulfram]

I'd assume Liara's used because she's definitely alive (unlike all the other LIs), not potentially used later on (unlike Vega) and didn't require recording any extra stuff because she already had a scene (unlike EDI).

Though if they'd tweaked things to have a bit of differentiation between LI and non LI, that would have been better. Even if a bit of mild flirtation with a friend isn't all that unreasonable.

[David7204]

Liara saved 'your' Shepard whether you like it or not. Just like Shepard and Liara are at the very least, canonically friends, whether you like it or not. Again, all perfectly good writing.

Your arguments about 'choice' are silly. A true 'blank slate' character would not only be impossible from a technical perspective, but ridiculous from a narrative perspective.

Modifié par David7204, 17 mai 2013 - 10:09 .

[Ymladdych]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
You said what I thought was irrelevant.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, let me clarify what I meant: When it comes determining whether the Liara issue is a "vast exaggeration" as you asserted, the only objectively relevant opinion is Bioware's; not mine; not yours. They're the ones who need to determine which point of view is correct. (For real, I'm not being ironic here. I really didn't mean it the way you interpreted it.)

So you're roleplaying someone who actively seeks out a person you don't like for their supposed 'obsessive' tendancies.

Except that Shepard wouldn't know she's obsessive until she starts acting obsessive. He's not psychic, right?

Putting aside the fact that this is the CItadel DLC and its content has zero bearing on the rest of Mass effect considering there's not a single aspect that isn't tongue in cheek, why is specifically Liara flirting with Shepard a travesty when half the other characters do similar things at points, even outside of the Citadel DLC?

Truth? Her "Citadel" flirt line didn't bother me that much. I was very happy with the DLC. That one dark moment didn't really faze me beyond a quick eyeroll and a single-syllable obscenity. However, I understand why players like the OP, who've also been chaffing under the Liara-centrism for so long would find it irritating enough to post about it.

In regard to your question about the travesty of it all - I think I've answered that several times in numerous ways on this thread. You just don't agree with my examples because they don't bother *you.*

Liara's a control freak, she becomes the Shadow Broker, and like the Illusive Man has a vested interest in Shepard's mission.

I'd be more willing to accept  the Shadow Broker slant had she said something to Shepard first. The creepy-factor is that she installs the cameras without his consent - I understand TIM's motivation, but what kind of "friend" does that?

You're placing far too much importance on a meaningless act that lasted about half a second and amounted to nothing. Get over it, basically.

Except that it all adds up over time - that's only one example in a long list with bigger things. Even the most charitable fan has their limits.

Yeah, they were so single minded they had exactly the same amount of romance content for her in the first game compared to Ashley and Kaiden, took her out altogether in the second and only went back to her later in DLC, whilst adding a bunch of new options like the extremely popular Garrus, Tali, and Miranda, then continued into the third game by adding more romance options and continuing the old ones whilst giving her exactly the same amount of romance content as all these other options, and most importantly, allowing players exactly once to enter into a relationship, the same as every other of the afore mentioned romancable characters. If they were so single minded, wouldn't they be slipping in romance lock triggers like the Citadel date in far more of her conversations?

Look, it's not just about the amount of content, as I've said multiple times. Since you bring it up, though, she's *not* taken out of ME2 completely - she has just as much screentime as the VS. It may not be satisfactory content because of her behavior, but how many VS peeps were happy with their reunions? Not to mention, they were left hanging until ME3, at which time the VS was taken away for half the game. Liara, on the other hand, got an ME2 DLC with almost as much content (romantic and otherwise) as any of the full-fledged ME2 squaddies.

Then there's the whole issue of ME2 characters getting shortshafted in ME3, and I'm not just talking about the romances, but interactions with the squad, period. Is that Liara's *fault*? Maybe not - I don't know how they divvied up their resources. Still, that's not much consolation for people who might've been looking forward to hanging with Grunt, Miranda, or Samara, but instead they were stuck with lots and lots of Liara. Or, from the romance side of things, they found the Liara "friend" scenes to have more emotional depth than what they got for their ME2 romance.

Ultimately, people want to feel like they're being treated fairly and given the same regard as everyone else.

You seem awfully frightened of this infamous 'Blue Brigade.

Not really.

[Hazegurl]

David7204 wrote...

Liara saved 'your' Shepard whether you like it or not. Just like Shepard and Liara are at the very least, canonically friends, whether you like it or not. Again, all perfectly good writing.

Your arguments about 'choice' are silly. A true 'blank slate' character would not only be impossible from a technical perspective, but ridiculous from a narrative perspective.

Don't confuse your role play game with mine. There is zero mention from anyone, including Liara about her being the one that saved my Shepard so in my world it didn't happen. I don't care if she saved you in yours. That is fine for you. But Bioware is at least giving me a choice in this and I'm taking it whether some player I don't know nor care about likes it or not.

And no I'm not saying Shep should be a blank slate. What I am saying is that the player should at least be free to choose how to handle the companions given to them. I understand not being able to kill all companions but give me a choice in how I deal with X companion. Pretty much Dragon Age does a much better job at giving players freedom with their companions than Mass Effect.

PS. One of my biggest RPG pet peeves is some other player telling me how my game story is or should be based on their own choices/game play/ etc in theirs. That's not how it works with me (unless you want to buy my game for me). So excuse me if my post comes across a bit harsh.

[Ryzaki]

Liara saving my Shepard by handing him over to Cerberus is not a point in her favor.

My paragon would've preferred to stay dead (and if someone says something stupid like "why don't he just kill himself hurr durrr." No. My Shep would've rather been allowed to rest. Since he's rezed he's dedicated to finishing what he started in ME1. Destroying the Reapers).

If anything he'd be short and clipped with Liara and not the buddy buddy act he's forced to be.

That said it's not like my Shepard is in ME3 anyway. All hail BW canon Shep!