790 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's obligated to like every character at least enough to not throw them off the ship, as countless people on the BSN have gleefully advocated for every character.

S/he's obligated to like Anderson, to get along with Hackett, to respect the Alliance.

S/he's obligated to trust EDI, to be on good terms with Chakwas, to work with Cerberus.

S/he's obligated to want to be a Spectre, which implies respect for the Council.

You don't have to like someone to see another body is good against the Reapers. (Not to mention you can kill so many of them).Not throwing them off the ship could be because shock of shock Shep doesn't wanna waste useful resources (that said I've argued about Shep being forced to recruit Jack many a time).

Yeah you are forced to trust EDI (but again EDI did nothing worthy of distrust so it's one of those things I don't mind.), As for Chakwas you can let her die after a game full of ignoring her. (And if you don't let her die you can tell her to work somewhere else in ME3). Cerberus railroading I have debated to death but I feel it was necessary (unless Shep was gonna sit around ME2 handwringing). That said as I said in other threads I do wish Shep could've gotten that "ah yes 'Reapers'." before FP so at least then it'd explain why he was so eager to work on a Cerberus lead.

Oh I hate the whole alliance fanboy in ME3 too. (I've mentioned that in other threads.) it's one more tick in the ME3 Canon Shep poster boy category. What's funny is pre release comments by the devs suggested that Shep would be able to be not so happy about working with them. We all know how *that* turned out.  

Spectre though not at all. Spectres have power. You don't have to respect the Council to want the power that being a Spectre gives you. That was one of my fav plot points in ME1 because I could make it desirable to all of my Sheps.

Not to mention not being nice to Liara doesn't ruin a plot point in the least. The worse it might do is force her to give up that crush she has on Shep (which for me anyway would be for the better). Saving Shepard? Could just as easily be repayment for Shep saving her life.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 12:31 .

[Bizinha]

13 pages without pictures?



Sabotaging the other romances since 2183

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's obligated to like every character at least enough to not throw them off the ship, as countless people on the BSN have gleefully advocated for every character.

S/he's obligated to like Anderson, to get along with Hackett, to respect the Alliance.

S/he's obligated to trust EDI, to be on good terms with Chakwas, to work with Cerberus.

S/he's obligated to want to be a Spectre, which implies respect for the Council.

.  You can have absolutely no respect for the council.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Looks like David is enforcing his opinion of what Shepard should be.

"Shepard can only think one way. He can only view things a certain way."

[David7204]

Don't be foolish.

A player character is going to have predefined traits the player has no control over, and that's the end of it.

[Argolas]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's obligated to like every character at least enough to not throw them off the ship, as countless people on the BSN have gleefully advocated for every character.

S/he's obligated to like Anderson, to get along with Hackett, to respect the Alliance.

S/he's obligated to trust EDI, to be on good terms with Chakwas, to work with Cerberus.

S/he's obligated to want to be a Spectre, which implies respect for the Council.

.  You can have absolutely no respect for the council.

The final decision in ME1 is just about that. There are 2 ways to abandon the council: The neutral option is for pragmatic reasons because Sovereign is the priority. The renegade option is deliberately letting them get killed. Also, you don't just hang up on your superiors during mission reports if you respect them.

Being a Spectre has many advantages so that people who don't care about the council will want that.

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

Don't be foolish.

A player character is going to have predefined traits the player has no control over, and that's the end of it.

Yes, but I think that Shepard has less than you are claiming.

[Ryzaki]

David7204 wrote...

Don't be foolish.

A player character is going to have predefined traits the player has no control over, and that's the end of it.

I never said otherwise.

Doesn't mean he/she has to like Liara.

The Warden has predefined traits, Hawke has predefined traits.

They're not forced to like any of their companions.

To make it worse Shep doesn't have to like Liara in ME1. He/she is retconned to being friendly to her.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 01:30 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Don't be foolish.

A player character is going to have predefined traits the player has no control over, and that's the end of it.

Yeah. He or she is a Special Forces Veteran, a person of exceptionally high intellect and genetic stock, and an incredibly capable leader.

As for his personality, past having an incredible will and great personal confidence and self-assuredness, his thoughts and opinions are up to the player. 

My Shepard thinks whatever I want him to think. Yours is the same for you.

I'm annoyed that my Shepard is streamlined to think only one way in ME3. It breaks the connection because previously, I was able to make my Shepard feel very differently on other matters in other games.

[David7204]

If Liara or any other character plays a significant "allied" role in the plot, yes, it means Shepard does have to like them. Just like Shepard has to like Miranda enough for her to be giving orders and instructions throughout ME 2.

Modifié par David7204, 18 mai 2013 - 01:33 .

[Ryzaki]

David7204 wrote...

If Liara or any other character plays a significant "allied" role in the plot, yes, it means Shepard does have to like them.

No you don't have to like a character for them to play an ally role in the plot. You don't. I don't even know why you think this.

Play DAO.

Play DA2.

Hell play ME1.

Heck for the lulz NWN2 has Bishop he's a significant ally. He's also a grade A douchemobile. Pretty sure liking him is not a requirement.

Both games have significant "ally" roles and no the main PC isn't forced to like them. BW choice to have Shep be friendly/hostile/neutral to Liara in ME1 and she was just as significant plotwise there. Even Anderson could have Shep throw a few biting remarks at him (mostly in ME1 and ME2 Canon Shep takes over ftl in ME3).

Where did you even get that nonsense from? Sure the main "ally" being friendly is a boon but it's by no means necessary.

Especially not when the plot has you struggling against crazy mecha chtulu trying to kill everyone.

Just like Shepard has to like Miranda enough for her to be giving orders and instructions throughout ME 2.

Nope. One of my Sheps hated Miranda. (she disliked him right back when he sided with Jack). Respect =/= like. You can follow someone's orders because you know their competent while having the same goal and wanna punch them in the face.

Also what orders and instructions she gives? Shep can tell her "This is my ship." right quick. She gives advice.

Heck the person who gives you orders is TIM and Shep sure in hell doesn't have to like him in ME2.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 01:41 .

[David7204]

No. Squadmates play a much different role in ME 3 than they did in ME 1, and I'm guessing DAO and DA2. They're much more involved in driving the plot. Liara melds with Shepard in ME 1 to find the Conduit, but that's it. In ME 3, she's mandatory on certain missions, gives Shepard assignments and instructions, and sometimes offers advice remotely when she isn't present in person. And even having the option of Shepard being continually rude to her would just be jarring.

Modifié par David7204, 18 mai 2013 - 01:43 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No. Squadmates play a much different role in ME 3 than they did in ME 1, and I'm guessing DAO and DA2. They're much more involved in driving the plot. Liara melds with Shepard in ME 1 to find the Conduit, but that's it. In ME 3, she's mandatory on certain missions, gives Shepard assignments and instructions, and sometimes offers advice remotely when she isn't present in person. And even having the option of Shepard being continually rude to her would just be jarring.

.  no it wouldnt be, itd be consistent with the ither games.  consistency is by nature, not jarring.

[Ryzaki]

David7204 wrote...

No. Squadmates play a much different role in ME 3 than they did in ME 1, and I'm guessing DAO and DA2. They're much more involved in driving the plot. Liara melds with Shepard in ME 1 to find the Conduit, but that's it. In ME 3, she's mandatory on certain missions, gives Shepard assignments and instructions, and sometimes offers advice remotely when she isn't present in person.

The Illusive Man.

ME2. Plot dependant ally.

Shep does not have to like him. Not even a little bit.

That's not even an arguement. Being allied with someone doesn't make you friends.

Liara wasn't involved in ME1's plot? Alistair and Morrigan weren't involved in DAO's plot? Um...yes they were.

Plus you realize all companions in ME3 save Vega (who do tell how he's important to the plot) EDI and Liara can all be dead? They have limited importance.

And yeah that's unique to Liara (which plays a part in the Author's pet complaints). None of that says why Shep should be forced to be friendly to her.

And even having the option of Shepard being continually rude to her would just be jarring.

Maybe to you. To me it'd make my Shep consistent with his behavior in ME1. Plus one doesn't have to be constantly rude to avoid BFF syndrome. A simply cut to the point dialogue choice that skips all the friendship banter/dialogue when she's giving Shep missions would be swell.

And no I'm not asking for additional no friendship dialogue other than that. Clearly my Shep wants to be friends if he's talking to her about things other than the mission.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 01:48 .

[David7204]

If you want a game like ME 1 with very limited character reaction and involvement in the plot, tough. Those days are over. It's clear BioWare is intent on having characters play a bigger role in the story and with each other. There's a price for that immersion - less freedom for the player to dictate their roles with the characters.

[Ryzaki]

David7204 wrote...

If you want a game like ME 1 with very limited character reaction and involvement in the plot, tough. Those days are over. It's clear BioWare is intent on having characters play a bigger role in the story and with each other. There's a price for that immersion - less freedom for the player to dictate their roles with the characters.

So you think the characters weren't involved in DAO's plot? Or DA2's characters (hell they *were* the plot).

I mean...really? 

"those days are over." *sigh* You honestly believe the only way to have characters involved in the plot is for them and the protagonist to be friends? 

Maybe if we were playing a JRPG...

Also that price for immersion is less roleplaying.

I don't know why people think less rping in a rpg is something good.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 01:51 .

[AresKeith]

David, having characters that plays bigger roles doesn't mean you have to friendly with them

[David7204]

Complete apples and oranges. The Illusive Man is very firmly established as helping Shepard as a means to an end. As using Shepard as a tool and not much else. So it's valid for them to be antagonistic. Liara and other characters are established as helping Shepard because they like and respect him or her. Having Shepard continually be a jerk while the crewmember is continually helpful would make very little sense.

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

If you want a game like ME 1 with very limited character reaction and involvement in the plot, tough. Those days are over. It's clear BioWare is intent on having characters play a bigger role in the story and with each other. There's a price for that immersion - less freedom for the player to dictate their roles with the characters.

And by all means, I give respect for Bioware wanting to do that, but when, specifically in a trilogy - not a standalone game, that's the distinction that should be clear (even though the trilogy feels like three standalone games... haha), I was able to craft my Shepard in a way, that fit how I envisioned, I never felt restricted in that sense, even though I understood the illusion, I never felt like my Shepard was acting out of character, though that's subjective for the individual playing each game.  To me personally, I wish Bioware stuck with what they had in ME2, the right balance in my opinion.  If they want to have less freedom for the player in future games, by all means, go for it, but not for a trilogy specific mindset.  It makes no sense and the quality was ruined for me.  

Though.... I think Bioware dropped the ball or maybe it's just unrealistic expectations from when ME1 was released, say I decided to be an ass to Liara, Garrus, or whom ever, the whole "this will happen with 'x' relationship" regardless of past acts bugs me.  I understand continuation for story sake, but certain minor things can affect the way I roleplay.  I guess limitations and well, it's Bioware's game, doesn't help me, haha.  

Modifié par spirosz, 18 mai 2013 - 01:54 .

[Mr.House]

Ryzaki wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If you want a game like ME 1 with very limited character reaction and involvement in the plot, tough. Those days are over. It's clear BioWare is intent on having characters play a bigger role in the story and with each other. There's a price for that immersion - less freedom for the player to dictate their roles with the characters.

So you think the characters weren't involved in DAO's plot? Or DA2's characters (hell they *were* the plot).

I mean...really? 

"those days are over." *sigh*

Also that price for immersion is less roleplaying.

I don't know why people think less rping in a rpg is something good.

The only  characters that where important to DAo's main plot was Alistair, Loghain and Morrigan. All other companions where just side things or to help explain secondary plots. (and this is comnig from a big fan of Leli, Shale, Sten, Dog and Zev)

Modifié par Mr.House, 18 mai 2013 - 01:54 .

[David7204]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't know why people think less rping in a rpg is something good.

Do you grasp the concept that there's a trade-off here? There's no such thing as a free lunch.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Complete apples and oranges. The Illusive Man is very firmly established as helping Shepard as a means to an end. As using Shepard as a tool and not much else. So it's valid for them to be antagonistic. Liara and other characters are established as helping Shepard because they like and respect him or her. Having Shepard continually be a jerk while the crewmember is continually helpful would make very little sense.

.  That simply makes Liara a moron.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Complete apples and oranges. The Illusive Man is very firmly established as helping Shepard as a means to an end. As using Shepard as a tool and not much else. So it's valid for them to be antagonistic. Liara and other characters are established as helping Shepard because they like and respect him or her. Having Shepard continually be a jerk while the crewmember is continually helpful would make very little sense.

Because Respect =/= like

[spirosz]

Steelcan wrote...

That simply makes Liara a moron.

Yo dawg, Liara is green. 

[Ryzaki]

David7204 wrote...

Complete apples and oranges. The Illusive Man is very firmly established as helping Shepard as a means to an end. As using Shepard as a tool and not much else. So it's valid for them to be antagonistic. Liara and other characters are established as helping Shepard because they like and respect him or her. Having Shepard continually be a jerk while the crewmember is continually helpful would make very little sense.

You just said you can't have a ally and not be friendly. I point out an example...and now you realize that oh wait...you CAN have an ally and not be friendly with them.

(by the way some Shep's COULD be friendly to TIM *up til the CB mission anyway*)

That's one of those beautiful things called choice.

*points at ME1* Oh look Shep being a complete douchemobile to people trying to help him. *Looks at ME2* Oh same thing there...

You had exceptions sure but Shep could be plenty dickish to people only trying to help.

Also again you don't seem to understand the difference between not being friends and being a jerk.

The two are not the same thing. That said I'd like the choices for both.

Also...you never had someone you tried to help just not like you? Lucky. It happens.

Also you can respect someone and think their personality is rotten. (indeed if one was jerkish enough to Liara in ME1 she had this attitude!) My Sheps respect TIM. They'd kick him out an airlock but they respect the man.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 01:57 .