790 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

So is that obvious at the time? It is very clear to the player that Anderson will save the squadmate on the left? Or is it just a coin toss?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Hazegurl wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That is repulsive. What you're suggesting is shoving in completely awful writing and game design for the sole purpose of cheap shock value and contrived conflict. Not only that, you're forcing players to act out of character and choose characters they dislike for the final mission to get a happy ending. Ridiculous.

 I don't see how the player would have to act OOC in their first playthrough of the game, you don't even know the freaking choice is coming.

You seem to not even understand that a role playing game should offer the player choices and options cause you're afriad that they would choose something that is different. That's what linear games are for.

Sadly I think Bioware(at least the ME team so far) is making games with people like you in mind.

I think David is not actually a fan of RPG's. His indicated behavior seems to show that he doesn't know what they're about at all. He's more of an action-adventure fan it seems. That's why he doesn't seem to understand the player choice things in games.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

So is that obvious at the time? It is very clear to the player that Anderson will save the squadmate on the left? Or is it just a coin toss?

trial and error

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

So is that obvious at the time? It is very clear to the player that Anderson will save the squadmate on the left? Or is it just a coin toss?

It's up to EMS. There is no coin toss. He will save ONLY the squadmate on the left (the paragon trigger) provided you have the EMS to have him close enough. 

If you choose not to save either squadmate (by not taking the prompt), they both die.

Choosing the paragon prompt damns the squadmate on the right (the first squadmate) while you and Anderson help the second squadmate.

Choosing the renegade prompt w/ high enough EMS means you save the first squadmate while Anderson helps the second.

If you have low EMS, only one squadmate can live since Anderson doesn't have a clear path to get to the squadmate.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 mai 2013 - 11:21 .

[David7204]

What I'm asking is if the player KNOWS that? Does the player KNOW that picking the left squadmate damns the one on the right BEFORE they make the choice? I'll ignore the completely pointless shilling of the Renegade prompt for the moment.

Modifié par David7204, 18 mai 2013 - 11:21 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

What I'm asking is if the player KNOWS that? Does the player KNOW that picking the left squadmate damns the one on the right? I'll ignore the completely pointless shilling of the Renegade prompt for the moment.

It's up to them to find out in the game. The option is there to find. The game isn't going to pause and explain it to you.

As Ares said, Trial and Error. If the player makes a mistake, he can reload from the beginning of the mission and try different variations.

The P/R prompt adds no points. It's simply the system being used. 

Like the Pull-ups with James. That's based on the P/R system.

The only difference is that the prompt for both is simultaneous.

Don't tell me you're going to **** about choosing the renegade option for once are you? Even though it doesn't actually do anything.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 mai 2013 - 11:25 .

[David7204]

So it is a coin toss. No. That's absolutely unacceptable. That's the complete opposite of meaningful choice. That's just stupid choice.

Modifié par David7204, 18 mai 2013 - 11:25 .

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

So it is a coin toss. No. That's absolutely unacceptable.

Umm, you know that you can restart/load the game in-case right?

Modifié par AresKeith, 18 mai 2013 - 11:26 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

So it is a coin toss. No. That's absolutely unacceptable. That's the complete opposite of meaningful choice. That's just stupid choice.

How is it a coin toss? The option is there. There is a pattern for it. If you know what you're doing (after the first playthrough or whatever) then you'll be fine.

You're just *****ing to **** now.

In fact, I think you're being willfully ignorant.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 mai 2013 - 11:28 .

[Bleachrude]

That seems VERY arbitary.

With virmire, even on the 1st playthrough, the game indicates what will happen to the person you don't go to...

This seems like a random "dice roll" where people will legitimately point out that there's no way to know beforehand....

[David7204]

The player should not have to 'meta-game' for their choices to be meaningful. That's completely repulsive. The player might have knowledge of what happens in the future, but does Shepard? No. Shepard does not magically know that the coin is going to land on heads.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

The player should not have to 'meta-game' for their choices to be meaningful. That's completely repulsive. The player might have knowledge of what happens in the future, but does Shepard? No. Shepard does not magically know that the coin is going to land on heads.

They do it anyway

Modifié par AresKeith, 18 mai 2013 - 11:30 .

[Hazegurl]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I think David is not actually a fan of RPG's. His indicated behavior seems to show that he doesn't know what they're about at all. He's more of an action-adventure fan it seems. That's why he doesn't seem to understand the player choice things in games.

 Yep, that pretty much explains it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bleachrude wrote...

That seems VERY arbitary.

With virmire, even on the 1st playthrough, the game indicates what will happen to the person you don't go to...

This seems like a random "dice roll" where people will legitimately point out that there's no way to know beforehand....

Who the hell cares if people don't know beforehand? Once it's done, it's done. If you don't like it, reload and try again.

I certainly didn't know that the squadmates were going to die on my first playthrough to the Beam! I certainly didn't expect several deaths on the SM the first time around. I certainly didn't expect to make a paragon choice that ended up having a negative consequence a few times.

[David7204]

What explains it is that I'm smart enough to distinguish between choices and meaningful choices. And you clearly aren't.

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

That seems VERY arbitary.

With virmire, even on the 1st playthrough, the game indicates what will happen to the person you don't go to...

This seems like a random "dice roll" where people will legitimately point out that there's no way to know beforehand....

Who the hell cares if people don't know beforehand? Once it's done, it's done. If you don't like it, reload and try again.

I certainly didn't know that the squadmates were going to die on my first playthrough to the Beam! I certainly didn't expect several deaths on the SM the first time around. I certainly didn't expect to make a paragon choice that ended up having a negative consequence a few times.

Because it's contrary to the theme of the story that your choices matter. Choices. Not dice rolls. Not coin tosses. Not reloading the universe until things go right for you. Do you understand the difference? Between there is a vast difference between a choice and a coin toss, I assure you.

Modifié par David7204, 18 mai 2013 - 11:32 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

The player should not have to 'meta-game' for their choices to be meaningful. That's completely repulsive. The player might have knowledge of what happens in the future, but does Shepard? No. Shepard does not magically know that the coin is going to land on heads.

Define meaningful choice. You're dismissing it because you make a mistake your first time around. 

I did too, and I never felt short-changed. 

Why do they have to have the damn option written in highlighter and glitter and stapled to their forehead?

As I said, you're just trying to be a jackass now.

[o Ventus]

Bleachrude wrote...

That seems VERY arbitary.

With virmire, even on the 1st playthrough, the game indicates what will happen to the person you don't go to...

This seems like a random "dice roll" where people will legitimately point out that there's no way to know beforehand....

And?

Nobody knew that Wrex dies if you sabotage the cure (if he survived through ME1) the first time they played, but it happened.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

What explains it is that I'm smart enough to distinguish between choices and meaningful choices. And you clearly aren't.

lol, calling someone stupid because you don't agree classic David

[Bleachrude]

*snort*

Hazegurl, ME0730's scenario is NOT roleplaying AT ALL. It's a complete arbitary choice that doesn't depend on any of the actions that the player took before reaching that point.

Again, there's nothing wrong with a "save either teammate A or B" but I agree with David that in such a case, players will metagame their least favourite teammate.

Contrast this with Mordin.

You have the option to either save or kill Mordin but the game gives you the information beforehand...

[themikefest]

This is what I want for high ems

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

That seems VERY arbitary.

With virmire, even on the 1st playthrough, the game indicates what will happen to the person you don't go to...

This seems like a random "dice roll" where people will legitimately point out that there's no way to know beforehand....

Who the hell cares if people don't know beforehand? Once it's done, it's done. If you don't like it, reload and try again.

I certainly didn't know that the squadmates were going to die on my first playthrough to the Beam! I certainly didn't expect several deaths on the SM the first time around. I certainly didn't expect to make a paragon choice that ended up having a negative consequence a few times.

Because it's contrary to the theme of the story that your choices matter. Choices. Not dice rolls. Not coin tosses. Not reloading the universe until things go right for you. Do you understand the difference? Between there is a vast difference between a choice and a coin toss, I assure you.

And it's not a bloody coin toss! You think every choice should have a positive outcome or something. And if it doesn't, you want to know exactly what will happen.

And meaningful choice is what you make it. You're just being bloody thickheaded now.

Go play the Witcher 2. It'll be funny to see how much that pisses you off.

[Bleachrude]

o Ventus wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

That seems VERY arbitary.

With virmire, even on the 1st playthrough, the game indicates what will happen to the person you don't go to...

This seems like a random "dice roll" where people will legitimately point out that there's no way to know beforehand....

And?

Nobody knew that Wrex dies if you sabotage the cure (if he survived through ME1) the first time they played, but it happened.

Except that as a player you should expect that Wrex will find out about the sabotage and that should be taken into your calculations.

[o Ventus]

Bleachrude wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

That seems VERY arbitary.

With virmire, even on the 1st playthrough, the game indicates what will happen to the person you don't go to...

This seems like a random "dice roll" where people will legitimately point out that there's no way to know beforehand....

And?

Nobody knew that Wrex dies if you sabotage the cure (if he survived through ME1) the first time they played, but it happened.

Except that as a player you should expect that Wrex will find out about the sabotage and that should be taken into your calculations.

"Should expect"?

At what point in the story was it ever even remotely to be expected that Wrex would find out something that he didn't witness?