790 réponses à ce sujet

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

For all intents and purposes, Shepard flips a coin. Left or right. No reason to think one is better than the other. One leads to survival, the other to death. It's a coin flip.

It doesn't matter if Shepard succeeds overall or not. A squadmate living or dying is a huge consequence that should never depend so heavily on luck and absolutely nothing else.

I have to agree here. Choices and consequences can be done in many ways and whatever is the best way depends on the story you are telling, more specifically on its protagonist. In some of my favorite games that feature C&C, a meaningful decision is a difficult one that requires close attention to both yourself and the surroundings, even a bit of paranoia. Shepard is very different, Shepard is clearly a hero, specifically he/she is the one who gets his/her people to the other side, and in a meaningful decision in Mass Effect (especially concerning life and death of your squad) you need to be able to somehow predict the consequences or it's not really a decision but just superficially looks like one and actually is a coin flip.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

None of those consequences are dependent on luck. A through, smart, reasonable, prepared player is guaranteed to be able to spare or kill Wrex, cure or sabotage the genophage, rewrite or destroy the geth, and make peace with the geth and quarians. I got all of the 'best' outcomes for those scenarios my very first playthough.

So did I, but not every good choice has a good outcome

[Argolas]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

None of those consequences are dependent on luck. A through, smart, reasonable, prepared player is guaranteed to be able to spare or kill Wrex, cure or sabotage the genophage, rewrite or destroy the geth, and make peace with the geth and quarians. I got all of the 'best' outcomes for those scenarios my very first playthough.

So did I, but not every good choice has a good outcome

For example?

[David7204]

AresKeith wrote...

So did I, but not every good choice has a good outcome

In real life?

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 02:17 .

[AresKeith]

Argolas wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

None of those consequences are dependent on luck. A through, smart, reasonable, prepared player is guaranteed to be able to spare or kill Wrex, cure or sabotage the genophage, rewrite or destroy the geth, and make peace with the geth and quarians. I got all of the 'best' outcomes for those scenarios my very first playthough.

So did I, but not every good choice has a good outcome

For example?

Rewriting the Geth Heretics is a Paragon and while gives the Geth more strength, its cost the Quarians their strength

Choosing to save Rachni "Breeder" has a bad outcome

David7204 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

So did I, but not every good choice has a good outcome

In real life?

I'm talking about Mass Effect

Modifié par AresKeith, 19 mai 2013 - 02:20 .

[David7204]

Not every single choice, but most of them do. There are no drastic, crippling consequences such a character dying from picking a Paragon choice. As it should be.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 02:25 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Not every choice has to be meaningful. There's a lot of mundane choices, and some like this happen so fast (and rather randomly) that there's no time to make a meaningful choice.

It doesn't detract from Shepard at all. It shows that some events are out of his control.

For all that you claim him to be, there is one thing he is not. God.

Sometimes, all Shepard can do is react. This is such an event.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Not every single choice, but most of them do. There are no drastic, crippling consequences such a character dying from picking a Paragon choice. As it should be.

1. I never said every single choice

2. Are we characters or squadmates, because if characters that's a bold face lie

[David7204]

No, not every choice has to be meaningful. But choices concerning something of tremendous importance to players, such as the survival of the characters they love - do.

[Argolas]

AresKeith wrote...

Rewriting the Geth Heretics is a Paragon and while gives the Geth more strength, its cost the Quarians their strength

Choosing to save Rachni "Breeder" has a bad outcome

Paragon is good most times, but not every time... speaking against Rewriting at the beginning of the mission is Paragon, and at at the actual decision, most squadmates make clear that it isn't really the good choice...

Wasn't saving the Rachni the Renegade choice anyway? Regardless, it's a case where the player just needs to think a little. Consistency is usually rewarded. If you didn't trust the Rachni queen in ME1, you shouldn't trust the breeder either. If you saved the Rachni queen in ME1, you should free her.

Modifié par Argolas, 19 mai 2013 - 02:28 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Not every single choice, but most of them do. There are no drastic, crippling consequences such a character dying from picking a Paragon choice. As it should be.

Why? That skewers the game to a Paragon slant. I'd hate that. Just as I'd hate if the game was skewered to a Renegade slant. 

I think some Paragon actions should have some good results some of the time. I don't think all Paragon actions should always have good results all of the time. Same with Renegade actions.

It makes the game more morally ambiguous. I prefer it that way.

Play the Witcher 2. That will really ****** you off.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

No, not every choice has to be meaningful. But choices concerning something of tremendous importance to players, such as the survival of the characters they love - do.

I disagree. 

It's a split second choice. There really is no right or wrong to it. Either you save them or one, or you don't.

If you want to save them both, then do the renegade interrupt.

[David7204]

I have no interest in so-called 'moral ambiguity.' I'm interested in heroism. If someone wants to tell a story about moral ambiguity, that's great. More power to them. I'll pass, but plenty of other people will be interested. But Mass Effect has very firmly established themes of heroism throughout the story. It needs to continue those themes and validate them, not abandon them.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 02:35 .

[Argolas]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Not every single choice, but most of them do. There are no drastic, crippling consequences such a character dying from picking a Paragon choice. As it should be.

Why? That skewers the game to a Paragon slant. I'd hate that. Just as I'd hate if the game was skewered to a Renegade slant. 

I think some Paragon actions should have some good results some of the time. I don't think all Paragon actions should always have good results all of the time. Same with Renegade actions.

It makes the game more morally ambiguous. I prefer it that way.

Play the Witcher 2. That will really ****** you off.

Usually, Paragon actions are "the right thing to do" while Renegade actions are "the practical thing to do" (I don't know if that's the right word here, I mean that Renegade Shepards are probably less optimistic, maybe  I should put "the save thing to do"). Both are acceptable in this story. There are moments of both alignments which I consider inacceptable for my Shepard when Paragon responses get too idealistic (some Paragon comments about the genophage in ME2 are outright naive IMO, same with some Legion responses in ME3) while some Renegade options are pointless slaughter (for example killing Falere). I like Paragade and Renegon playthroughs. I strongly dislike pure Paragon and Renegade playthroughs which I consider stupid and inconsistent.

[AresKeith]

So how do you feel about Renegades David?

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

I have no interest in so-called 'moral ambiguity.' I'm interested in heroism. If someone wants to tell a story about moral ambiguity, that's great. More power to them. I'll pass, but plenty of other people will be interested. But Mass Effect has very firmly established themes of heroism throughout the story. It needs to continue those themes and validate them, not abandon them.

So you're not interested in games like Torment or the original Fallout?

(I can't say if The Witcher 2 counts as such since I haven't played it)

[David7204]

Well, actually, maybe I spoke a little soon. Breaking Bad is one of my favorite shows, pretty much the only show I actually sit down and watch, and it's filled with moral ambiguity.

Let me rephrase. I have no interest in 'morally ambiguous' stories that pretend to be about heroism. That's more like it. Basically any game that touts choices mattering, the power and competence of the protagonist, heroic themes and imagery, etc. etc. then has the events and characters of the story blatently contradict that. 

I have no problems with moral ambiguity as long as the story is honest about such things from the beginning, and isn't contrived.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 02:43 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

I have no interest in so-called 'moral ambiguity.' I'm interested in heroism. If someone wants to tell a story about moral ambiguity, that's great. More power to them. I'll pass, but plenty of other people will be interested. But Mass Effect has very firmly established themes of heroism throughout the story. It needs to continue those themes and validate them, not abandon them.

It never abandoned them. But it was never just about 'heroism'. It depended on how the player chose to play the game. You don't have to be a hero if you don't want to be. You can be a neutral enforcerr if you wish, or a renegade psychopath if you so desire.

You're slanting your opinion of the games to be the objective meaning behind them. Honestly, I think games blindly adhering to the heroism quality is childish and naive. Mass Effect was more than that.

That's why I think the Paragon/Renegade actions of the entire series was rather lame at some points.

It makes people mindlessly pick the upper left (or upper right) option. Be a good guy hero and everything will be sunshine and bunnies. 

I pick the option, but I don't pick it because it's 'heroic' or 'good'. I pick the option because I weigh the options in my head and do the best I can to make the best decision I can with the information that I have. 

And sometimes, I don't have time to weigh the options or look at what's 'good' or 'bad'. Sometimes, all I can do is react to an event. 

That detracted from ME3 a lot.

[David7204]

If you don't like stories about heroism, that's your choice. You should probably stay away from stories about heroism, then.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Well, actually, maybe I spoke a little soon. Breaking Bad is one of my favorite shows, pretty much the only show I actually sit down and watch, and it's filled with moral ambiguity.

Let me rephrase. I have no interest in 'morally ambiguous' stories that pretend to be about heroism. That's more like it. Basically any game that touts choices mattering, the power and competence of the protagonist, heroic themes and imagery, etc. etc. then has the events and characters of the story blatently contradict that. 

I have no problems with moral ambiguity as long as the story is honest about such things from the beginning, and isn't contrived.

Well, Mass Effect has always been a make-your-own-Shepard thing.

They leave it up to the player to decide what's good and what is bad. 

In ME3, the writing gets a lot more ham-fisted. ME3 is a lot more Black-and-white than either ME1 or ME2.

[Argolas]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I have no interest in so-called 'moral ambiguity.' I'm interested in heroism. If someone wants to tell a story about moral ambiguity, that's great. More power to them. I'll pass, but plenty of other people will be interested. But Mass Effect has very firmly established themes of heroism throughout the story. It needs to continue those themes and validate them, not abandon them.

It never abandoned them. But it was never just about 'heroism'. It depended on how the player chose to play the game. You don't have to be a hero if you don't want to be. You can be a neutral enforcerr if you wish, or a renegade psychopath if you so desire.

You're slanting your opinion of the games to be the objective meaning behind them. Honestly, I think games blindly adhering to the heroism quality is childish and naive. Mass Effect was more than that.

That's why I think the Paragon/Renegade actions of the entire series was rather lame at some points.

It makes people mindlessly pick the upper left (or upper right) option. Be a good guy hero and everything will be sunshine and bunnies. 

I pick the option, but I don't pick it because it's 'heroic' or 'good'. I pick the option because I weigh the options in my head and do the best I can to make the best decision I can with the information that I have. 

And sometimes, I don't have time to weigh the options or look at what's 'good' or 'bad'. Sometimes, all I can do is react to an event. 

That detracted from ME3 a lot.

I think we have different ideas of heroism. Your Shepard as well as every other is a hero (at least up to the ending) because of their exceptional skill and their ability to inspire their squad, that made them accomplish incredible things together. Whether you are Paragon or Renegade is rather a matter of style than heroism- except when it comes down to pointless slaughter. That's very rare in Mass Effect though.

[David7204]

If you consider your crew dead and half the galaxy gone to be the 'best' outcome, you're perfectly free to do so. Nobody's stopping you.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 02:50 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

If you don't like stories about heroism, that's your choice. You should probably stay away from stories about heroism, then.

I don't mind heroism from time to time. But it's a pretty broad term. 

That said, Mass Effect really is about more than just heroism. Shepard doesn't have to be a hero. 

You can establish him to be a pretty scary guy. I'm guessing my Shepard is probably pretty scary to the general public.

It's a build your own fate series. Or it was. Some were set up to be tragic, some uplifting, some utterly chaotic, and some to be realistic. That's the beauty of Mass Effect.

[Domino 44G]

It's funny how this thread went from a "I don't like that pretty faced, elegant speaking, highly attractive female in my face" whine-fest to a meaningful debate about the choices in ME3 . I guess evolution has its perks;)

I think the choices are balanced just fine. You do this, you get that. The only time that I disagree with the Bioware choice wheel is when an obvious choice is not present. At this moment all I can think of is the lack of getting to call Catalyst a liar and argue with him about having ENDED the geth revolt / uprising. When he throws the geth in your face it would be nice to remind him that organics AND synthetics had reached common ground WITHOUT the Reapers assistance. Let him choke on that to find an answer to.

Modifié par Domino 44G, 19 mai 2013 - 02:55 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

If you consider your crew dead and half the galaxy gone to be the 'best' outcome, you're perfectly free to do so. Nobody's stopping you.

Well, considering the context and the way I think, I might. You're trying to be condescending about it. 

Best outcome is subjective. That's something you need to learn. I find synthesis terrifying. Some people find it enlightening.

You're advocating conformism to a rigid ideology.