790 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

No. It doesn't happen to any main characters. You don't have important characters just get shot in the head in the middle of a heated gunfight in stories. It never happens. You might have them be killed in climatic moments, in heated 1-on-1 battles with tough opponents. They might be mortally wounded, with a scene of their friends surrounding them as they die. But you never see important characters die in the middle of the action with the music still going.

That's not true at all. That's naive. Some of the most dramatic deaths and moments come from how random they occur. It's certainly not like that in real life.

Ever hear of Henry Blake from MASH and his death?

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 03:39 .

[David7204]

I just looked it up on Wikipedia. First of all, it's very clear that the episode was incredibly controversial. Which proves my point. Audiences are outraged at such things.

Secondly, it more or less fits the parameters I listed. His death is announced at the end of the episode - the climax. The action stops. Everybody and everything is focused on the conversation.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 03:42 .

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

And when it does happen, or when it approaches it, audiences detest it. Look at Bane's death in TDKR. It was heavily criticized. It was heavily criticized for a major character to die in a very non-climatic way. Why?

It was criticized for reasons beyond it being anti-climactic.

[David7204]

What reasons were those?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

I just looked it up on Wikipedia. First of all, it's very clear that the episode was incredibly controversial. Which proves my point. Audiences are outraged at such things.

Secondly, it more or less fits the parameters I listed. His death is announced at the end of the episode - the climax.

Like the deaths of a squadmate (that you can save). These occur at the end. Really, what are the squadmates, or Shepard going to do to Harbinger? It gets them out of the way. Ever see the low EMS rating

It's not outrage all the time, it's drama. It establishes a no-nonsense attitude. Not everyone has to die in the most dramatic way possible. And really, they're more pissed off that a character dies period, not just the ignominious way he dies.

Random is scary. It's scary because it's unpredictable. Unpredictable keeps you engaged, on your toes, and in the midst of the action.

The most I'm willing to concede is that you don't feel the same I do on this matter. Neither of us is objectively right. It's a matter of interpretation. I'll even say that my point of view isn't as popular as yours is, but it's not any less valid than yours.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 03:51 .

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

What reasons were those?

Oh, right. Hi, Catwoman. 

[David7204]

A story is a collection of promises from the storyteller to the audience. Those promises need to be fulfilled. When they aren't, audiences become incredibly upset. They feel betrayed. And they're justified in doing so. This is precisely what happened concerning the ending of ME 3.

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

What reasons were those?

Oh, right. Hi, Catwoman. 

Technically she isn't Catwomen, only a burglar with the name Selina Kyle 

[David7204]

That ties in pretty heavily with being anti-climatic. Audiences expected Bane to be defeated in a fight with Batman. That was the climax they expected. Having him being dealt with by a much less powerful person is anti-climatic.

[dreamgazer]

AresKeith wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

What reasons were those?

Oh, right. Hi, Catwoman. 

Technically she isn't Catwomen, only a burglar with the name Selina Kyle 

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

What reasons were those?

Oh, right. Hi, Catwoman. 

Technically she isn't Catwomen, only a burglar with the name Selina Kyle 

Hey I'm not the writer of TDKR who decided not to credit and list her as "Catwoman" lol

[David7204]

That was a lousy movie. Whoever wrote it sucks.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 03:55 .

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

That ties in pretty heavily with being anti-climatic. Audiences expected Bane to be defeated in a fight with Batman. That was the climax they expected. Having him being dealt with by a much less powerful person is anti-climatic.

The power of the person who dealt the death blow is rarely a criticism I hear about that scene.  In fact, that's usually what I hear as the saving grace of that scene: the badass impact of how it happened.  

It's criticized because of how unbeliavably it occurs. How perfectly timed it is.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

That was a lousy movie. Whoever wrote it sucks.

Same person who wrote the second Batman movie, and many of Chris Nolan's other movies.  

Far from suckage.

[David7204]

Yeah, also Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, as the ads took care to remind me.

And Catwoman was terrible. 

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 03:58 .

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That ties in pretty heavily with being anti-climatic. Audiences expected Bane to be defeated in a fight with Batman. That was the climax they expected. Having him being dealt with by a much less powerful person is anti-climatic.

The power of the person who dealt the death blow is rarely a criticism I hear about that scene.  In fact, that's usually what I hear as the saving grace of that scene: the badass impact of how it happened.  

It's criticized because of how unbeliavably it occurs. How perfectly timed it is.

I also heard Talia Al Ghul was a part of the critism too

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

A story is a collection of promises from the storyteller to the audience. Those promises need to be fulfilled. When they aren't, audiences become incredibly upset. They feel betrayed. And they're justified in doing so. This is precisely what happened concerning the ending of ME 3.

... Which was involving Shepard.

My scenario doesn't kill Shepard. It kills squadmates (who's death's are preventable) in a dramatic way in the climax of the fight.

The deaths are poignant because they are so random and unpredictable. You didn't expect this. It throws a monkey wrench in your plans and your expectations. Suddenly the Reapers are all the more real, and all the more evil. It's realism. It's shocking. It's unsettling. That's what it goes for.

And if you don't want that, then rescue the squadmate that Anderson isn't running towards. Pick fast, or they both die.

[David7204]

No, the deaths are cheap shock value because they're random and unpredictable. That's not 'realism.'

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Yeah, also Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, as the ads took care to remind me.

That's David Goyer. Different guy. He was in the backseat for TDK and TDKR.  

I'm referring to Nolan's brother, Jonathan.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 19 mai 2013 - 04:00 .

[Hazegurl]

A story is not a collection of promises. The only "promise" a writer has to fulfill is that the conflict presented gets resolved. If a writer is making a promise as you say, that must be fulfilled then who is he making it to specifically? There are many different people who have many different expectations for how a story should be. No writer can make everyone happy all the time.

The reason why so many are upset with the endings of the game is due to (as many have said) false advertising which are actual false promises being made. Introducing characters at the end of a story then try to wrap it up with a speech from them about how everything the main character is fighting for is wrong can also induce rage. But in general there are no set rules to follow when telling a story. You can have a main character go through hell, resolve a difficult conflict, then suddenly get knifed in the back on their way to the grocery store.

[David7204]

I can assure you that a story is an implicit collection of promises. I can assure you that you carry quite a few expectations when you begin a story, whether those expectations are obvious are not. They're usually pretty subtle. The most obvious is that the story is a story worth telling and worth hearing.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 04:06 .

[HiddenInWar]

Someone please tell me how this managed to reach 25 pages.

[dreamgazer]

HiddenInWar wrote...

Someone please tell me how this managed to reach 25 pages.

Coin tosses, arbitrary deaths, a woman in a skin-tight suit shooting a bald guy with a motorcycle.

Speculations.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

No, the deaths are cheap shock value because they're random and unpredictable. That's not 'realism.'

You don't like random and unpredictable deaths. That's perfectly alright.

I do, if they're done well.

Let me tell you something. Real life is pretty unpredictable. Not that someone is going to be killed in your face or anything right off the bat when you get up for our morning coffee, but you never know.\\

You never know what you're going to wake up to on the news. In Afghanistan, I never new if there was an IED or EFP was going to shred my MRAP or the Humvee behind us or in front of us.

Death in war is frighteningly random. You never know if you're going to wander off to take a leak downrange and get greased by a sniper or walk and suddenly get ambushed and shot. You never know if that Taliban ****er who's been out all night lobbing mortars on you is going to accidentally misfire and blow his family jewels off.

That's the appeal to random deaths. I'm not saying that EVERY death has to be random and unpredictable. Given the circumstances, this isn't even the case with my own. It's the climax and you have a Reaper shooting at you. How big of an imagination stretch is it to make it to cover, only to turn around and see the buddy who's been with you the whole game get vaporized? It's not a big stretch at all. It's sudden, it's jarring, and it reminds me that while the Reapers aren't invincible, neither am I, and neither is my crew. That's realism.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 04:11 .

[David7204]

I hate female characters like catwoman. It's one of the few gender topics in fiction that I see as a problem. And unfortunately, it's a problem often lauded and encouraged by supposed progressives and feminists.