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[dreamgazer]

There are several sudden, unexpected deaths that I like in fiction, namely movies.

But I like to keep my spoilers to a minimum.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

I hate female characters like catwoman. It's one of the few gender topics in fiction that I see as a problem. And unfortunately, it's a problem often lauded and encouraged by supposed progressives and feminists.

I'll probably regret this, but ... why?

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

I hate female characters like catwoman. It's one of the few gender topics in fiction that I see as a problem. And unfortunately, it's a problem often lauded and encouraged by supposed progressives and feminists.

What's wrong with Catwoman?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David, do you think your opinions are objective? As in, do you think that only what you think is correct in terms of interpretation?

[David7204]

Because they do a very poor job depicting supposedly 'powerful' and skilled female characters.

[Indy_S]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

That's the appeal to random deaths. I'm not saying that EVERY death has to be random and unpredictable. Given the circumstances, this isn't even the case with my own. It's the climax and you have a Reaper shooting at you. How big of an imagination stretch is it to make it to cover, only to turn around and see the buddy who's been with you the whole game get vaporized? It's not a big stretch at all. It's sudden, it's jarring, and it reminds me that while the Reapers aren't invincible, neither am I, and neither is my crew. That's realism.

Sadly, Mass Effect hasn't exactly been about realism. There haven't been big shock moments previously (with one painful exception). It's too late in the story to adopt it and pull it off.

[Hazegurl]

People may have expectation and predictions but the writer is under zero obligation to make them come true. That's why people speculate about stories all the time. The parts of the story that generate the most attention are the parts that threw the audience off. As long as it is well written and not convoluted or contrived. Sure there are people who expect certain things to happen, then rage and demand when it doesn't happen. No story teller should care about those people nor screw up their story trying to accommodate their wishes. That's what fan fiction is for.

The story must be good is a natural promise. Other than that anything is game.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Because they do a very poor job depicting supposedly 'powerful' and skilled female characters.

Are you talking about TDKR Selina Kyle or Catwoman in general?

[David7204]

TDKR Selina Kyle.

[AresKeith]

Yeahhh I'm not touching that conversation

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Indy_S wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

That's the appeal to random deaths. I'm not saying that EVERY death has to be random and unpredictable. Given the circumstances, this isn't even the case with my own. It's the climax and you have a Reaper shooting at you. How big of an imagination stretch is it to make it to cover, only to turn around and see the buddy who's been with you the whole game get vaporized? It's not a big stretch at all. It's sudden, it's jarring, and it reminds me that while the Reapers aren't invincible, neither am I, and neither is my crew. That's realism.

Sadly, Mass Effect hasn't exactly been about realism. There haven't been big shock moments previously (with one painful exception). It's too late in the story to adopt it and pull it off.

No it hasn't always been about realism. Nor really should it be. It'd be a pretty sad and cynical game if EVERYTHING was made to be real.

Take a look at The Sand Pebbles with Steve McQueen. On Her Majesty's Secret Service with Diana Rigg. Nearly all of the main characters in the Dirty Dozen and the Great Escape. 

Random deaths that weren't in the playbook, that were all executed incredibly well. They were sudden, jarring, and unexpected. And that's why they're so powerful. That's my opinion of course. 

That's how the squadmates would die in my scenario (and they don't even *have* to die as I keep saying. There is a way to save them. A way out for them).

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 04:22 .

[Indy_S]

Hazegurl wrote...

People may have expectation and predictions but the writer is under zero obligation to make them come true. That's why people speculate about stories all the time. The parts of the story that generate the most attention are the parts that threw the audience off. As long as it is well written and not convoluted or contrived. Sure there are people who expect certain things to happen, then rage and demand when it doesn't happen. No story teller should care about those people nor screw up their story trying to accommodate their wishes. That's what fan fiction is for.

The story must be good is a natural promise. Other than that anything is game.

That's like saying I have no obligation to finish this sente... As long as the meaning gets across, anything goes, right? A story runs on natural progression, it should be possible to see things coming.

[David7204]

So how would you feel about Miranda being shot in the head during your last encounter on Horizon? Sudden, jarring, and unexpected.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 04:23 .

[Hazegurl]

I actually have to agree about female characters like cat woman. I haven't seen TDKR yet so I can't judge this Catwoman. However, the Catwomen of the past were all sexed up fan service chicks. Very very rarely will the media show a skilled woman without sexing her up or making her stupid in some way.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Indy_S wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

People may have expectation and predictions but the writer is under zero obligation to make them come true. That's why people speculate about stories all the time. The parts of the story that generate the most attention are the parts that threw the audience off. As long as it is well written and not convoluted or contrived. Sure there are people who expect certain things to happen, then rage and demand when it doesn't happen. No story teller should care about those people nor screw up their story trying to accommodate their wishes. That's what fan fiction is for.

The story must be good is a natural promise. Other than that anything is game.

That's like saying I have no obligation to finish this sente... As long as the meaning gets across, anything goes, right? A story runs on natural progression, it should be possible to see things coming.

I'm also sensing that you believe that things the player doesn't see coming is a bad thing. Provided that it fit's the narrative and the lore, a monkey wrench can be a very powerful jerk to the story if it's executed well.

[David7204]

The problem isn't Catwoman being attractive, the problem is her being an ultra-super-badass who takes out thugs with no sweat by virtue of being a woman.

[Indy_S]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

No it hasn't always been about realism. Nor really should it be. It'd be a pretty sad and cynical game if EVERYTHING was made to be real.

Take a look at The Sand Pebbles with Steve McQueen. On Her Majesty's Secret Service with Diana Rigg. Nearly all of the main characters in the Dirty Dozen and the Great Escape. 

Random deaths that weren't in the playbook, that were all executed incredibly well. They were sudden, jarring, and unexpected. And that's why they're so powerful. That's my opinion of course. 

That's how the squadmates would die in my scenario (and they don't even *have* to die as I keep saying. There is a way to save them. A way out for them).

I love me some Great Escape and I understand why you're suggesting the deaths but the Great Escape reinforced the idea that everyone could die when they escaped time and time again, the whole way through the story. That reinforcement is lacking from Mass Effect, except for one instance at the FOB which seems to be about foreshadowing that your squad could die in the charge.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

So how would you feel about Miranda being shot in the head during your last encounter on Horizon? Sudden, jarring, and unexpected.

Well, she already can be shot in the stomach very suddenly and rather jarringly. 

It's preventable if I take actions, and certain actions doom her to death later.

[David7204]

Nope. Nothing can prevent it. She dies no matter what. To be truly jarring, it needs to happen even if the player has done everything right.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 04:29 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Indy_S wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

No it hasn't always been about realism. Nor really should it be. It'd be a pretty sad and cynical game if EVERYTHING was made to be real.

Take a look at The Sand Pebbles with Steve McQueen. On Her Majesty's Secret Service with Diana Rigg. Nearly all of the main characters in the Dirty Dozen and the Great Escape. 

Random deaths that weren't in the playbook, that were all executed incredibly well. They were sudden, jarring, and unexpected. And that's why they're so powerful. That's my opinion of course. 

That's how the squadmates would die in my scenario (and they don't even *have* to die as I keep saying. There is a way to save them. A way out for them).

I love me some Great Escape and I understand why you're suggesting the deaths but the Great Escape reinforced the idea that everyone could die when they escaped time and time again, the whole way through the story. That reinforcement is lacking from Mass Effect, except for one instance at the FOB which seems to be about foreshadowing that your squad could die in the charge.

Is the squad any less susceptible to Reaper blasts? I don't see why the possibility of their deaths can't be there. 

And once more, the deaths, if you take a certain split second decision, are preventable.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 04:33 .

[Indy_S]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I'm also sensing that you believe that things the player doesn't see coming is a bad thing. Provided that it fit's the narrative and the lore, a monkey wrench can be a very powerful jerk to the story if it's executed well.

I don't quite see it as bad but if the intent is solely for shock, I believe it to be a poor use of the character. But you're right, execution is everything.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Because they do a very poor job depicting supposedly 'powerful' and skilled female characters.

The Nolans are incredibly hit and miss at handling women in general, but Catwoman Selina Kyle has been considered an exception.

(Link)(Link)(Link)

Modifié par dreamgazer, 19 mai 2013 - 04:29 .

[AresKeith]

Hazegurl wrote...

I actually have to agree about female characters like cat woman. I haven't seen TDKR yet so I can't judge this Catwoman. However, the Catwomen of the past were all sexed up fan service chicks. Very very rarely will the media show a skilled woman without sexing her up or making her stupid in some way.

Catwoman's appearance would be somewhat described similar to Miranda with her using her sex appeal as a skill

[David7204]

Like I said - often lauded and encouraged.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Nope. Nothing can prevent it. She dies no matter what.

That'd be rather cheap and upsetting. If it was preventable, I'd have no problem with it. It's not an option I'd ever choose, but I acknowledge that it's there. And it has little to do with my scenario, since you *choose* who goes with you, and not only that, but you can even prevent their deaths regardless of who you choose too. Just run to the injured squadmate that Anderson isn't running too.

This whole scenario stems from me wanting an option to have a character die without damning my game.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 04:32 .