790 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

You seem to have changed your stance a bit. Before you implied that it was nothing but luck, and the player had no information on which squadmate to run to. A total guess. Now you're saying we can run to the squadmate Anderson isn't running to. So we do have some information.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 04:33 .

[dreamgazer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This whole scenario stems from me wanting an option to have a character die without damning my game.

Probably be better off championing a mid-game Virmire 2.0 than trying to wedge this decision into the finale.

[AresKeith]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Nope. Nothing can prevent it. She dies no matter what.

That'd be rather cheap and upsetting. If it was preventable, I'd have no problem with it. It's not an option I'd ever choose, but I acknowledge that it's there. And it has little to do with my scenario, since you *choose* who goes with you, and not only that, but you can even prevent their deaths regardless of who you choose too. Just run to the injured squadmate that Anderson isn't running too.

This whole scenario stems from me wanting an option to have a character die without damning my game.

I just watched the beam run scene, and one of the squadmembers isn't even all that injured

Which would make it easier for players (who would want to save both) choose which to pick

[Hazegurl]

Indy_S wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

People may have expectation and predictions but the writer is under zero obligation to make them come true. That's why people speculate about stories all the time. The parts of the story that generate the most attention are the parts that threw the audience off. As long as it is well written and not convoluted or contrived. Sure there are people who expect certain things to happen, then rage and demand when it doesn't happen. No story teller should care about those people nor screw up their story trying to accommodate their wishes. That's what fan fiction is for.

The story must be good is a natural promise. Other than that anything is game.

That's like saying I have no obligation to finish this sente... As long as the meaning gets across, anything goes, right? A story runs on natural progression, it should be possible to see things coming.

No it isn't the same. Stories, all stories are about conflicts and how that conflict gets resolved. It's about how the characters deal with it and struggle through it.  It must have a resolution that makes sense, not some contrived mess thrown together because you're trying to make everyone happy. If a character in a story does something unexpected, then the writer should go with it as long as it makes sense. Not go "Well I wanted the character to go to X and this is what everyone expects so I'll make them go to X like everyone wants." that's the fastest way to a cardboard cut out character if I ever seen one.  

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

You seem to have changed your stance a bit. Before you implied that it was nothing but luck, and the player had no information on which squadmate to run to. A total guess. Now you're saying we can run to the squadmate Anderson isn't running to. So we do have some information.

It still is a total guess. The player really has no idea on who to run to. I'll change that bit for you. You can see Anderson running on the left side of your screen. Not running towards anybody, but he just happens to be on Shepard's right side (in relation to the direction Shepard is facing which is towards the beam). That's all the foreshadowing you need. Just a little hint that an observant player might possibly catch onto. Choose the character on Shepard's right (facing away from the beam), and you see a cutscene of Anderson stopping to help the other squadmate and get them to cover. Problem solved.

[Hazegurl]

David7204 wrote...

The problem isn't Catwoman being attractive, the problem is her being an ultra-super-badass who takes out thugs with no sweat by virtue of being a woman.

Ah, considering the fact that I have no idea how someone can be protrayed as able to take out thugs by simply being a woman I will leave this part of the discussion alone.

[dreamgazer]

Hazegurl wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The problem isn't Catwoman being attractive, the problem is her being an ultra-super-badass who takes out thugs with no sweat by virtue of being a woman.

Ah, considering the fact that I have no idea how someone can be protrayed as able to take out thugs by simply being a woman I will leave this part of the discussion alone.

Yeah, I'm really not going anywhere near that topic. 

[David7204]

No, that isn't anywhere near good enough.

[Indy_S]

Hazegurl wrote...

No it isn't the same. Stories, all stories are about conflicts and how that conflict gets resolved. It's about how the characters deal with it and struggle through it.  It must have a resolution that makes sense, not some contrived mess thrown together because you're trying to make everyone happy. If a character in a story does something unexpected, then the writer should go with it as long as it makes sense. Not go "Well I wanted the character to go to X and this is what everyone expects so I'll make them go to X like everyone wants." that's the fastest way to a cardboard cut out character if I ever seen one.  

There's a difference between plotlines colliding at unforseen moments that provide twists and a random shock moment. I agree that there shouldn't be a contrived mess based upon the expectations of the audience but I will say that it is up to the writer to frame those expectations so as to avoid such issues.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

AresKeith wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Nope. Nothing can prevent it. She dies no matter what.

That'd be rather cheap and upsetting. If it was preventable, I'd have no problem with it. It's not an option I'd ever choose, but I acknowledge that it's there. And it has little to do with my scenario, since you *choose* who goes with you, and not only that, but you can even prevent their deaths regardless of who you choose too. Just run to the injured squadmate that Anderson isn't running too.

This whole scenario stems from me wanting an option to have a character die without damning my game.

I just watched the beam run scene, and one of the squadmembers isn't even all that injured

Which would make it easier for players (who would want to save both) choose which to pick

Have you read my scenario?

Basically it's a version of the beam run where there is an explosion that separates Shepard from the two squadmates, and they get separated from each other by a short distance (though long enough that Shepard would have to spend some time to save both. If you have a High EMS, Anderson is able to keep up with you because enough allied forces are able to keep cover. Anderson would be shown once, running on Shepard's 4 o'clock. Just a quick shot or camera glance. That'll be the foreshadowing for David. After the explosion, Shepard gets a quick simultaneous prompt on who to save. Paragon saves Squadmate One/S1 (or the squadmate on the left) and Renegade saves Squadmate Two/S2 (the squadmate on the right). Both are injured.

Take the Renegade prompt to save the squadmate on the left, and a cutscene will show Shepard helping S2 to cover, and a brief glimpse of Anderson helping S1 to cover (since Anderson would be closer to S1, and able to help.)

Choose S1, and Shepard and Anderson help S1 get to cover. As Shepard turns to help S2, S2 get's vaporized by Harbinger.

Have too low EMS, Anderson is forced to advance slower than you and is thus unable to help S1. It's up to Shepard to choose which Squadmate to survive.

Failure to take the P/R prompt results in Shepard slightly hesitating before running towards S1. S1 is vaporized before Shepard can get to him or her, and Shepard reaches S2, only to find that S2 is already dead. This occurs regardless of EMS.

I'd choose the last option with Liara and either Tali or Ashley.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 04:56 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

No, that isn't anywhere near good enough.

Too bad. I don't give a damn about what's good enough for you anymore.

I never should have in the first place. Lesson learned.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 04:54 .

[dreamgazer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No, that isn't anywhere near good enough.

Too bad. I don't give a damn about what's good enough for you anymore.

I never should have in the first place. Lesson learned.

Oh, the two of you knew you weren't going to convince each other anyway.

It's the Internet, hombre.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

dreamgazer wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No, that isn't anywhere near good enough.

Too bad. I don't give a damn about what's good enough for you anymore.

I never should have in the first place. Lesson learned.

Oh, the two of you knew you weren't going to convince each other anyway.

It's the Internet, hombre.

**** am I bloody fool. I really have to learn when to pick my fights. There was that argument over Cerberus the other night. I can't believe I wasted time on that. 

It's all just going to end with nobody convincing anybody of anything.

[dreamgazer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

**** am I bloody fool. I really have to learn when to pick my fights. There was that argument over Cerberus the other night. I can't believe I wasted time on that. 

It's all just going to end with nobody convincing anybody of anything.

Embrace the nihilism. 

Best you can do is hope to make a dent. But yeah, "internet invincibility" is actually a thing.

[Hazegurl]

[Bleachrude]

Hazegurl wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The problem isn't Catwoman being attractive, the problem is her being an ultra-super-badass who takes out thugs with no sweat by virtue of being a woman.

Ah, considering the fact that I have no idea how someone can be protrayed as able to take out thugs by simply being a woman I will leave this part of the discussion alone.

I actually have no trouble understanding where David7204 is coming from. It's the authors making their female kick butt but NOT answering how are they able to kickass eespecially when in-universe you have examples of what it takes to become so good...

[IMNOTCRAZYiminsane]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No, that isn't anywhere near good enough.

Too bad. I don't give a damn about what's good enough for you anymore.

I never should have in the first place. Lesson learned.

Oh, the two of you knew you weren't going to convince each other anyway.

It's the Internet, hombre.

**** am I bloody fool. I really have to learn when to pick my fights. There was that argument over Cerberus the other night. I can't believe I wasted time on that. 

It's all just going to end with nobody convincing anybody of anything.

Eh i see it as not really trying to convice (it's like trying to convice a Christian there is no God and Vice versa) But getting your point across If both are respectible people they will come an agreement  if not 

[Ymladdych]

Bleachrude wrote...
I actually have no trouble understanding where David7204 is coming from. It's the authors making their female kick butt but NOT answering how are they able to kickass eespecially when in-universe you have examples of what it takes to become so good...

Yeah, me neither. I love strong female characters, but I hate when they show a smooth-bodied 105 pound woman/girl magically taking out 10 guys at once without so much as getting punched, stabbed, or shot, much less sweating or grunting in a non-sexualized way. (These types of scenarios are usually capped off with a post-fight "cool" posture and witty quip.)

Fighting is ugly. It's painful, even if you win. And it's hard, especially for women fighting men, because there is a strength and size disparity. By giving female heroines a "god mode," modern movies cheapen the character into a patronizing wink at "girl-power."

Give me a Ripley, a non-combatant flight officer who sweats, bleeds, weeps and shrieks from mortal fear but still manages to persevere through horrible events that aren't completely beyond her established skillset. Or a Sarah Connor, who barely makes it out with her life in the first movie, then sacrifices and trains for 10 years to become the emotionally stunted, semi cray-cray badass we see in "Judgment Day."

Honestly, this is part of the reason I reject Liara's transition between ME1 and ME2; it feels tacked-on and disingenuous to me.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 19 mai 2013 - 12:20 .

[Ymladdych]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
**** am I bloody fool. I really have to learn when to pick my fights. There was that argument over Cerberus the other night. I can't believe I wasted time on that. 

It's all just going to end with nobody convincing anybody of anything.

I don't think he was rejecting your idea outright. It seemed to me that he was saying your specific scenario wouldn't be clear enough for the player to make an informed decision at the moment. You'd get a lot of players confusedly watching their beloved character(s) die a horrid, seemingly random death.

And I agree with him: while it may not bother you to do a reset, I suspect most Bioware fans would find it too jarring. (At the very least, they'd get lots of complaints about broken controllers.)

Your specific scenario also has a logistical problem: if the beam is wide enough to kill both squaddies, and Shepard only has enough time to save the closest before getting out of its way, wouldn't he also be caught in the blast if he tried to run for the farthest? In other words, if running towards the farthest kills both squaddies, then it would kill Shepard, too.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 19 mai 2013 - 12:23 .

[Neria Rose]

Domino 44G wrote...

It's funny how this thread went from a "I don't like that pretty faced, elegant speaking, highly attractive female in my face" whine-fest to a meaningful debate about the choices in ME3 . I guess evolution has its perks;)

A) She's ugly in ME1, base ME2, and in ME3. The only time she looked decent (without the ridiculous pink lips and bruised-eye shading around her eyes) was in LotSB. And then she still had those bizarre "eyebrows". As if having the face and body of a human woman wasn't accessible enough for a LI.

 Her voice is nearly as far from 'elegant' as it could be. It's monotone, raspy, and irritating.

C) I'd prefer a highly attractive male in my face 99% of the time, thanks.

[Bizinha]

Neria Rose wrote...

Domino 44G wrote...

It's funny how this thread went from a "I don't like that pretty faced, elegant speaking, highly attractive female in my face" whine-fest to a meaningful debate about the choices in ME3 . I guess evolution has its perks;)

A) She's ugly in ME1, base ME2, and in ME3. The only time she looked decent (without the ridiculous pink lips and bruised-eye shading around her eyes) was in LotSB. And then she still had those bizarre "eyebrows". As if having the face and body of a human woman wasn't accessible enough for a LI.

 Her voice is nearly as far from 'elegant' as it could be. It's monotone, raspy, and irritating.

C) I'd prefer a highly attractive male in my face 99% of the time, thanks.

but she is soooo sweet... 

[AlexMBrennan]

You do know that all the characters have conventionally attractive (usually models) face models, right?

[KingZayd]

Because Liara is the rat:

http://social.biowar.../index/14974517

[Neria Rose]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You do know that all the characters have conventionally attractive (usually models) face models, right?

I'm well aware. And yet, she still managed to be repulsive in ME1 and ugly in ME3. Fascinating how not everyone is attracted to the same thing, isn't it?

[Barquiel]

Ryzaki wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Liara is really not the worst offender when it comes to "Shepards canon friends"

For example after Tuchanka...she knocks and is invited in by Shepard (to inform you the salarian councilor wants to talk). She then asks "Is this a bad time?" and you have two options for a response:

- Just remembering the lost
- Let's get to business

How is that "forced"? If you like Liara...choose the "Just remembering the lost" option and you can talk a bit about lost friends (Ashley or Kaidan). If you don't want to talk about your dreams..."Let's get to business"

Then who pray tell is a worst offender when it comes to Shep's canon friends? Everyone else can be killed save Vega and EDI (Javik never has to be recruited). EDI can be completely ignored save 1 mission and her "I've taken over the bot" scene. And Vega can defintely safely be ignored. You can even tell him to knock that loco/lola crap off.

And you say that Tuckhanka scene like it's the only forced interaction she has with Shep. There's Mars and Thessia. (let's not forget the lulz of her being Shep's flashback if you didn't romance the VS pre EC. That's not the least bit questionable at all). There's plenty of Liara being shoved in people's faces in the series. (And let's not even get into the intelligent as she was beautiful compared to the good soldier and good kid from Genesis and how the melding wasn't "at all unpleasant" )  Thankfully that crap is optional but it does point to preferential treatment.

Edit: Also yeah that whole "I wanna talk about Kaidan/Ashley though Mordin just died" is derpy. I'm thinking that scene was probably originally supposed to come after the coup or something because otherwise. Derp. Really though Mordin's not even an option =/

Garrus

I didn't say that the Tuchanka scene is the only forced interaction she has with Shep. But you always have a friendship path and a "strictly business" path. If you don't want to talk about your dreams after Tuchanka...choose the "Let's get to business" option. If you don't want Liara's gift in London....decline it (she doesn't even offer it if you have ignored her during the game). And on Mars...talk to her or choose "Forget about it. Let's move". Even after Thessia you can tell her that she "has to mourn later".

And now compare that to Garrus. Take for example the goodbye scene in London: Your options are: "There is no Shepard without Vakarian" or "Shepard and Vakarian, storming heaven", it's also basically "your my best friend Garrus" or "your my best friend Garrus".

Modifié par Barquiel, 19 mai 2013 - 12:50 .