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[Ymladdych]

Barquiel wrote...
Garrus

I didn't say that the Tuchanka scene is the only forced interaction she has with Shep. But you always have a friendship path and a "strictly business" path. If you don't want to talk about your dreams after Tuchanka...choose the "Let's get to business" option. If you don't want Liara's gift in London....decline it (she doesn't even offer it if you have ignored her during the game). And on Mars...talk to her or choose "Forget about it. Let's move". Even after Thessia you can tell her that she "has to mourn later".

And now compare that to Garrus. Take for example the goodbye scene in London: Your options are: "There is no Shepard without Vakarian" or "Shepard and Vakarian, storming heaven", it's also basically "your my best friend Garrus" or "your my best friend Garrus".

If Liara gets a pass because some of her conversations are optional, then you have to grant the same charity to Garrus for that one example - you don't have to stop and talk to him.

Still, I think it makes a good case for narratively appropriate roleplay dialogue, or at the very least, more neutral options. (No assumed friendship, no assumed romantic sentiment.)

Modifié par Ymladdych, 19 mai 2013 - 01:15 .

[themikefest]

After the first dream T'Soni talks about the Turain councillor not helping till the primarch is rescued. Femshep already knew that. What is the point having T'Soni in that scene?

After the second dream, why can't T'soni use the intercom?

After Mars,when talking with Hackett, the scene should've ended. We end up talking with Liara about crap. The scene was overkill.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ymladdych wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
**** am I bloody fool. I really have to learn when to pick my fights. There was that argument over Cerberus the other night. I can't believe I wasted time on that. 

It's all just going to end with nobody convincing anybody of anything.

I don't think he was rejecting your idea outright. It seemed to me that he was saying your specific scenario wouldn't be clear enough for the player to make an informed decision at the moment. You'd get a lot of players confusedly watching their beloved character(s) die a horrid, seemingly random death.

And I agree with him: while it may not bother you to do a reset, I suspect most Bioware fans would find it too jarring. (At the very least, they'd get lots of complaints about broken controllers.)

Your specific scenario also has a logistical problem: if the beam is wide enough to kill both squaddies, and Shepard only has enough time to save the closest before getting out of its way, wouldn't he also be caught in the blast if he tried to run for the farthest? In other words, if running towards the farthest kills both squaddies, then it would kill Shepard, too.

Trust me. It's David. For the most part, he's ****ing to ****. He does this all the time to everyone. And he loves to insult people and flaunt his "intelligence". As I said a few pages back: ask a subjective opinion question about game content to 100 people (David is among them). You'd get 99 responses going one way, and 1 response going the other (that being David) and he immediately says everyone else is a total moron who's either asking too much, doesn't know physics, doesn't know game development, or are just idiots without elaborating why.

He doesn't take any other opinion into account besides his own.

To the next part:

But the thing is, it's not supposed to be foreshadowed. It's supposed to be random, it's supposed to highlight how even your beloved squadmate(s) aren't invulnerable to the Reapers. How they can die beyond Shepard's will. Really it's not any fault of Shepard. It was sudden, it was jarring, and it was fatal. There's not supposed to be any power or meaning behind the death. The very ignominity and randomness of the death(s) is what makes it so powerful in my opinion. 

And once people find out that they can save their squadmate (without any consequence or issue minus the EMS thing), I don't think there'd be any huge outcry (except from possibly the uber paragon player (again looking at David on this) butthurt over having to pick a renegade trigger (that wouldn't do anything other than have Shepard save the Second Squadmate). You have a way out, a way to not give them a meaningless death with no consequence to the game or to Shepard. 

Honestly, everyone is always harping about how Shepard is a combat leader and veteran. Speaking as a junior officer (and a veteran), I'll tell you that a lot of times, we don't get to make meaningful choices or informed decisions. Sometimes, we have to make split second decisions without really knowing what's going to happen. It's an old maxim of warfare. Doing anything, including nothing can get you killed. I understand how this shouldn't apply to Shepard. However, this is the climactic final battle, and we're nearing the end of it. Going to show that even the beloved squadmates aren't immune to random death is a reminder to me of how the Reapers aren't taking prisoners, of how powerful they really are. And again, as I have been saying, there's a way out. Once the player knows what option leads to what, he's going to take the option that sounds most fitting to him.

My scenario doesn't follow what you're saying. I think you're asking what would happen in the case of failing to use the P/R prompt. 

The beam doesn't kill both simultaneously. There is an explosion that separates both squadmates from Shepard and from each other. If Shepard doesn't take the P/R Prompt, then he begins to run to the first squadmate but Harbinger fires, killing S1 before Shepard can take more than a few steps. After looking in shock, he turns to the second squadmate and reaches S2, only to find that S2 is already dead from injury's sustained.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 02:31 .

[Ymladdych]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Trust me. It's David. For the most part, he's ****ing to ****. He does this all the time to everyone. And he loves to insult people and flaunt his "intelligence". As I said a few pages back: ask a subjective opinion question about game content to 100 people (David is among them). You'd get 99 responses going one way, and 1 response going the other (that being David) and he immediately says everyone else is a total moron who's either asking too much, doesn't know physics, doesn't know game development, or are just idiots without elaborating why.

He doesn't take any other opinion into account besides his own.

Mmmm, I don't know about other threads...I'm only going by what I've read in this one. I really didn't see anything deliberately "trollish" on his part.

To the next part:

But the thing is, it's not supposed to be foreshadowed. It's supposed to be random, it's supposed to highlight how even your beloved squadmate(s) aren't invulnerable to the Reapers. How they can die beyond Shepard's will. Really it's not any fault of Shepard. It was sudden, it was jarring, and it was fatal. There's not supposed to be any power or meaning behind the death. The very ignominity and randomness of the death(s) is what makes it so powerful in my opinion.

And once people find out that they can save their squadmate (without anyconsequence or issue minus the EMS thing), I don't think there'd be any huge outcry (except from possibly the uber paragon player (again looking at David on this) butthurt over having to pick a renegade trigger (that wouldn't do anything other than have Shepard save the Second Squadmate). You have a way out, a way to not give them a meaningless death with no consequence to the game or to Shepard.

Honestly, everyone is always harping about how Shepard is a military officer. Speaking as a junior officer, I'll tell you that a lot of times, we don't get to make meaningful choices or informed decisions. Sometimes, we have to make split second decisions without really knowingwhat's going to happen. It's an old maxim of warfare. Doing anything, including nothing can get you killed. I understand how this shouldn't apply to Shepard. However, this is the climactic final battle, and we're nearing the end of it. Going to show that even the beloved squadmates
aren't immune to random death is a reminder to me of how the Reapers aren't taking prisoners, of how powerful they really are. And again, as I have been saying, there's a way out. Once the player knows what option
leads to what, he's going to take the option that sounds most fitting to him.

For the record, I was Army Military Police and worked armed casino security for years. My brother was also Army Military Police and has been a civilian police officer for 20 years. My dad was a test pilot and veteran of WWII and Korea. Believe me, I understand how quickly hairy stuff can go down without warning or preparation.

But we're talking about a Bioware game here, not real life, and not something like "Dark Souls," where they can shake it off and move on. Players roleplay, and they have a significant emotional investment in the story and the characters. Did you know that some roleplayers won't even allow themselves a "redo?" They stick with everything, no matter the outcome.

So if you're going to throw a purely mechanics-dependent death at them, you can't be cheap about it, or you'll alienate players. When it comes to a Bioware game, the mechanics for the right decision (in this instance) would need to be fairly obvious at the moment of presentation. Your scenario makes it a 50/50 chance that players will make the wrong decision, watch a favorite character die, get upset, and throw their controller with a "WTF???!" Sure, they can reset, but now their immersion's been broken.

My scenario doesn't follow what you're saying. I think you're asking what would happen in the case of failing to use the P/R prompt. 

The beam doesn't kill both simultaneously. There is an explosion that separates both squadmates from Shepard and from each other. If Shepard doesn't take the P/R Prompt, then he begins to run to the first squadmate but Harbinger fires, killing S1 before Shepard can take more than a few steps. After looking in shock, he turns to the second squadmate and reaches S2, only to find that S2 is already dead from injury's sustained.

Ah, okay, that explains it. My comments above still apply, though.

***Edit*** Gah, the formatting stinks on these forums.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 19 mai 2013 - 02:38 .

[themikefest]

@Ymladdych Thank you for your service.

This July will be 22 years since I wore a uniform.

[anillee]

Ymladdych wrote...

For the record, I was Army Military Police

DH was 31B as well. /salute

[Ryzaki]

Barquiel wrote...
Garrus

I didn't say that the Tuchanka scene is the only forced interaction she has with Shep. But you always have a friendship path and a "strictly business" path. If you don't want to talk about your dreams after Tuchanka...choose the "Let's get to business" option. If you don't want Liara's gift in London....decline it (she doesn't even offer it if you have ignored her during the game). And on Mars...talk to her or choose "Forget about it. Let's move". Even after Thessia you can tell her that she "has to mourn later".

And now compare that to Garrus. Take for example the goodbye scene in London: Your options are: "There is no Shepard without Vakarian" or "Shepard and Vakarian, storming heaven", it's also basically "your my best friend Garrus" or "your my best friend Garrus".

Garrus can be skipped in ME1 and then killed in ME2. He's not forced in ME3. If his friendship really bothers me I can just let him die in the SM and completely avert ME3's forced friendship (Same with tali). They are avoidable. You might not like the way they can be avoided but it is avoidable. (Then of course is the as you put it not talking to him in the first place. Garrus only forced conversations are on Palavan (and that dialogue pretty much has him telling you the state of Palavan) and when he tells you to get some shuteye before the coup).

(Plus do you even get that dialogue if you refuse to talk to Garrus ever? The final earth scene I mean. Vega and Liara's dialogue changes if you never talk to them one would assume Garrus and the others would do the same). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 mai 2013 - 03:36 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Oh 31 Bravo's...

Join the military group in mike's sig. I started it a few months ago on an old profile.

As for the rest, I see what you're saying, but I disagree. I guess that's really all I can say.

I'm fine with a split second choice that is sudden and with unknown outcomes until later.

I'm thinking my scenario would be more appropriate for multi-playthrough players. My first playthrough is hardly perfect. I do my perfect 'main' playthroughs later. And those are more immersive to me, since I can do exactly what I want. The first is exploratory more or less.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 03:41 .

[themikefest]

Ryzaki wrote...
(Plus do you even get that dialogue if you refuse to talk to Garrus ever? The final earth scene I mean. Vega and Liara's dialogue changes if you never talk to them one would assume Garrus and the others would do the same). 

The dialogue between Garrus and Vega is the same. I was surprised.
 
If you don't talk to T'Soni at all she will not offer the gift to you.

I made a thread about this awhile ago. Check it out if interested

[Ryzaki]

themikefest wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
(Plus do you even get that dialogue if you refuse to talk to Garrus ever? The final earth scene I mean. Vega and Liara's dialogue changes if you never talk to them one would assume Garrus and the others would do the same). 

The dialogue between Garrus and Vega is the same. I was surprised.
 
If you don't talk to T'Soni at all she will not offer the gift to you.

I made a thread about this awhile ago. Check it out if interested

Huh. Heard Vega's changed.

Was thankful for that.

Thanks for the link.

[Hazegurl]

Neria Rose wrote...

Domino 44G wrote...

It's funny how this thread went from a "I don't like that pretty faced, elegant speaking, highly attractive female in my face" whine-fest to a meaningful debate about the choices in ME3 . I guess evolution has its perks;)

A) She's ugly in ME1, base ME2, and in ME3. The only time she looked decent (without the ridiculous pink lips and bruised-eye shading around her eyes) was in LotSB. And then she still had those bizarre "eyebrows". As if having the face and body of a human woman wasn't accessible enough for a LI.

 Her voice is nearly as far from 'elegant' as it could be. It's monotone, raspy, and irritating.

C) I'd prefer a highly attractive male in my face 99% of the time, thanks.

Seriously, I thought I was the only one thinking how that girl's makeup was a hot mess of clashing colors to her blue skin. lol!!  And yeah her voice is annoying, acting sucked, and I hated the way she said "Shepard"

I would have loved to replace Liara with a hot guy but I would settle for Aria. If I had to have an Asari onboard. She actually looked good, imo. Voice was great, acting was awesome and wouldn't follow me around the Normandy. 

[Hazegurl]

Ymladdych wrote...


So if you're going to throw a purely mechanics-dependent death at them, you can't be cheap about it, or you'll alienate players. When it comes to a Bioware game, the mechanics for the right decision (in this instance) would need to be fairly obvious at the moment of presentation. Your scenario makes it a 50/50 chance that players will make the wrong decision, watch a favorite character die, get upset, and throw their controller with a "WTF???!" Sure, they can reset, but now their immersion's been broken.

Actually, it can be done without the mechanics. Both teammates are separated so just have the player choose which one by running over to the one they want to save. Once they reach a certain point, cut scene of Shepard saving them and getting the Normandy down for transport. Meanwhile the other struggles, still alive. In the cut scene Shep turns to save them and bam, death scene. Shepard mourns but makes sure the one he saved gets away safetly. Back to the beam run.

**Yeah I intentionally left out Anderson saving the other. Players need to stop thinking they should get a "get out of jail free" card from the consequences of their choices. You save one and the other should rightfully perish and the player should deal with it.**

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Hazegurl wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...


So if you're going to throw a purely mechanics-dependent death at them, you can't be cheap about it, or you'll alienate players. When it comes to a Bioware game, the mechanics for the right decision (in this instance) would need to be fairly obvious at the moment of presentation. Your scenario makes it a 50/50 chance that players will make the wrong decision, watch a favorite character die, get upset, and throw their controller with a "WTF???!" Sure, they can reset, but now their immersion's been broken.

Actually, it can be done without the mechanics. Both teammates are separated so just have the player choose which one by running over to the one they want to save. Once they reach a certain point, cut scene of Shepard saving them and getting the Normandy down for transport. Meanwhile the other struggles, still alive. In the cut scene Shep turns to save them and bam, death scene. Shepard mourns but makes sure the one he saved gets away safetly. Back to the beam run.

**Yeah I intentionally left out Anderson saving the other. Players need to stop thinking they should get a "get out of jail free" card from the consequences of their choices. You save one and the other should rightfully perish and the player should deal with it.**

Personally, I agree with the last sentiment.

My entire joint survival scenario was made as a compromise for a few other posters. I fully support a forced squadmate death. Or both, if you don't choose in time.

[Neria Rose]

Hazegurl wrote...

Neria Rose wrote...

Domino 44G wrote...

It's funny how this thread went from a "I don't like that pretty faced, elegant speaking, highly attractive female in my face" whine-fest to a meaningful debate about the choices in ME3 . I guess evolution has its perks;)

A) She's ugly in ME1, base ME2, and in ME3. The only time she looked decent (without the ridiculous pink lips and bruised-eye shading around her eyes) was in LotSB. And then she still had those bizarre "eyebrows". As if having the face and body of a human woman wasn't accessible enough for a LI.

 Her voice is nearly as far from 'elegant' as it could be. It's monotone, raspy, and irritating.

C) I'd prefer a highly attractive male in my face 99% of the time, thanks.

Seriously, I thought I was the only one thinking how that girl's makeup was a hot mess of clashing colors to her blue skin. lol!!  And yeah her voice is annoying, acting sucked, and I hated the way she said "Shepard"

I would have loved to replace Liara with a hot guy but I would settle for Aria. If I had to have an Asari onboard. She actually looked good, imo. Voice was great, acting was awesome and wouldn't follow me around the Normandy. 

Gotta agree with you there! If it had to be an Asari, Aria would have been the most appealing. Sexy voice, beautiful face, and introduced as strong, independent, and powerful (rather than those last three traits suddenly being tacked on in a second game/comic/whatever to try to make her more appealing).

[David7204]

It's interesting how you tout 'strong, independent, powerful' female characters and then spend half your word count talking about their face and make-up.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 06:37 .

[Neria Rose]

David7204 wrote...

It's interesting how you tout 'strong, independent, powerful' female characters and then spend half your word count talking about their make-up.

And the point you're trying to make is what? That there is some correlation between wearing make-up and being independent?

[David7204]

You don't think that's somewhat of a petty reason to want Liara off the team?

[Neria Rose]

David7204 wrote...

You don't think that's somewhat of a petty reason to want Liara off the team?

I have several more reasons for despising Liara. I merely addressed the ones mentioned by a previous poster.

[David7204]

What reasons are those?

[dreamgazer]

Hazegurl wrote...

Players need to stop thinking they should get a "get out of jail free" card from the consequences of their choices. You save one and the other should rightfully perish and the player should deal with it.

I agree with this, despite strongly disagreeing with the situation being discussed.

[Han Shot First]

AresKeith wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I actually have to agree about female characters like cat woman. I haven't seen TDKR yet so I can't judge this Catwoman. However, the Catwomen of the past were all sexed up fan service chicks. Very very rarely will the media show a skilled woman without sexing her up or making her stupid in some way.

Catwoman's appearance would be somewhat described similar to Miranda with her using her sex appeal as a skill

Actually I'd argue that Catwoman was a much better executed femme fatale. After all there are plenty of instances where Catwoman uses her appearance to her advantage. Miranda is set up as a femme fatale, but Bioware never really went anywhere with it. Beyond Miranda reminding Shepard how perfect she looks, her appearance never factors into the game. I think it would have been more interesting if having Miranda in the squad opened up different options in a couple missions, by having her use her appearance distract a guard, gain intel or access a secure area, or to lure someone into an ambush, ect.

[Hazegurl]

Neria Rose wrote...
Gotta agree with you there! If it had to be an Asari, Aria would have been the most appealing. Sexy voice, beautiful face, and introduced as strong, independent, and powerful (rather than those last three traits suddenly being tacked on in a second game/comic/whatever to try to make her more appealing).

Right, not to mention Liara's boob job. Bioware might as well had screamed "Please like her!!!"

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Personally, I agree with the last sentiment.
My
entire joint survival scenario was made as a compromise for a few other
posters. I fully support a forced squadmate death. Or both, if you
don't choose in time.

Yeah,sad thing is they still whined about it. Just simple raging and no amount of compromise can make them...or pretty much David, shut up. As much as I didn't like the ME3 endings, its no wonder BioWare began dismissing complainers as the "vocal minority"

dreamgazer wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Players need to stop thinking they should get a "get out of jail free" card from the consequences of their choices. You save one and the other should rightfully perish and the player should deal with it.

I agree with this, despite strongly disagreeing with the situation being discussed.

I understand, in a way this topic has become a bit of an interesting take on how game developers just can't win with some fans.  Someone created a game scenario, some liked it (me), others (like you) simply didn't like it, then there were those who raged on and on about how things should be(David), the creator tries to accommodate the ragers yet they still rage on. It all boils down to players simply not wanting to face the consquences of making certain descisions. Before long rpg games become a case of "it doesn't matter what you chose you still get the best results." That's when choices no longer matter.  

[David7204]

You are an incredibly tedious person. And incredibly unintelligent as well. Never once have I 'raged' or even criticized 99% of the decisions in game. Is this how you react to people disliking your mediocre ideas, by continually whining about them in every post you make? It's very irritating.

I'll make this clear and simple for you. I except choices to be choices. Not coin tosses, and not dice rolls. And your ridiculous litany of "David hates choices in RPGs" is moronic.

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 08:09 .

[Hazegurl]

Han Shot First wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I actually have to agree about female characters like cat woman. I haven't seen TDKR yet so I can't judge this Catwoman. However, the Catwomen of the past were all sexed up fan service chicks. Very very rarely will the media show a skilled woman without sexing her up or making her stupid in some way.

Catwoman's appearance would be somewhat described similar to Miranda with her using her sex appeal as a skill

Actually I'd argue that Catwoman was a much better executed femme fatale. After all there are plenty of instances where Catwoman uses her appearance to her advantage. Miranda is set up as a femme fatale, but Bioware never really went anywhere with it. Beyond Miranda reminding Shepard how perfect she looks, her appearance never factors into the game. I think it would have been more interesting if having Miranda in the squad opened up different options in a couple missions, by having her use her appearance distract a guard, gain intel or access a secure area, or to lure someone into an ambush, ect.

That actually would have been interesting. It would offer more depth to having Miranda on the team. Actually, I would have like it if certain missions could have been done differently based on the skills of the squad you choose to bring, along with the career choice chosen for Shepard. Position Garrus at a high vantage point to snipe, pose as a Turian officer. Jack infiltrating some crazy biotic group  like in ME1 or something.

[dreamgazer]

Hazegurl wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Players need to stop thinking they should get a "get out of jail free" card from the consequences of their choices. You save one and the other should rightfully perish and the player should deal with it.

I agree with this, despite strongly disagreeing with the situation being discussed.

I understand, in a way this topic has become a bit of an interesting take on how game developers just can't win with some fans.  Someone created a game scenario, some liked it (me), others (like you) simply didn't like it, then there were those who raged on and on about how things should be(David), the creator tries to accommodate the ragers yet they still rage on. It all boils down to players simply not wanting to face the consquences of making certain descisions. Before long rpg games become a case of "it doesn't matter what you chose you still get the best results." That's when choices no longer matter.  

Well, my position goes beyond "not liking it", and I'm completely fine with facing consequences, but that's all covered in the previous pages.